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tata888
Guest
Why is it so easy for western churches to lose their traditions when the eastern churches can hold onto theirs for such a long time?
Why is it so easy for the Latin Church to lose its traditions while the Eastern Churches do not?
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Dirt
Guest
There are many and varied reasons, one might be the eastern Churches did not feel the effects of the reformation as the Western Church did. Nor have the Eastern Churches had to fight the Modernism we in the west have since the 60’s. At least not to the same extent. If you look at the effects of the cultural shift in western Europe and the US, it is evident that the loss of so much Tradition has been influenced by the tumultuous upheaval in every aspect of our societies.
Very good question, i hope others more knowledgeable will weigh in.
Very good question, i hope others more knowledgeable will weigh in.
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thistle
Guest
Like what, for example?
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teenphilo1
Guest
Like the rosary, chaplets, Stations of the Cross, Eucharistic Adoration, reverence…
What? Just sayin.
But in all seriousness, we have had fifty years of ‘sexual revolution’. Not a small problem.
(And above traditions may just be temporarily mispleaced, (never lost!
) in the area that I live.)
What? Just sayin.
But in all seriousness, we have had fifty years of ‘sexual revolution’. Not a small problem.
(And above traditions may just be temporarily mispleaced, (never lost!
) in the area that I live.)
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thewanderer
Guest
I’ve seen all of those things practiced regularly. Maybe other chaplets not as much, but the rosary, stations of the cross and Adoration are still pretty common practices.Like the rosary, chaplets, Stations of the Cross, Eucharistic Adoration, reverence…
What? Just sayin.
But in all seriousness, we have had fifty years of ‘sexual revolution’. Not a small problem.
(And above traditions may just be temporarily mispleaced, (never lost!
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Ontheway
Guest
Teenphilo mentions reverence as one of the things that has been lost. I would agree and add that somehow the sense of mystery is missing in the church.
Maybe it is because of all the glaring lights, and the congregation members facing each other instead of the monstrance or the chalice. All the changes in music haven’t helped much either.
Maybe it is because of all the glaring lights, and the congregation members facing each other instead of the monstrance or the chalice. All the changes in music haven’t helped much either.
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Catholicgauze
Guest
Depends on what you mean by “traditions” and “Eastern Churches”. Look at the Orthodox, lover of icons but they copied the Muslims for two generations and went on a jihad to destroy icons. We needed a church council to stop them. Look at marriage, Muslims start getting converts because of the easy divorce laws so all the sudden dogma changes and now up to three marriages is okay.
For the Eastern Catholic Churches, many of them adopted Western practices like the rosary, stations of the cross in churches, etc. Now since VII there has been an effort to go to “deeper tradition” and get rid of the Western things like rosary, etc (not making a judgement call, just saying).
For the Eastern Catholic Churches, many of them adopted Western practices like the rosary, stations of the cross in churches, etc. Now since VII there has been an effort to go to “deeper tradition” and get rid of the Western things like rosary, etc (not making a judgement call, just saying).
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TrueLight
Guest
I object to the “so easy” part of the question.
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manualman
Guest
Uh, take a trip to Russia some time and talk to some people on the street.
EO countries have as bad a secularism problem as we do, rose colored EO poster claims to superior sanctity just don’t hold up to on the ground recon.
EO countries have as bad a secularism problem as we do, rose colored EO poster claims to superior sanctity just don’t hold up to on the ground recon.
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TimothyH
Guest
I object to the “Lost” part.I object to the “so easy” part of the question.
Ya’ll come down south. We’ll show ya’ll how it’s done.
Then we’ll all go to the Pigs 'n Peaches Festival after Mass and hand out rosaries to all them cute little Baptist kids.
-Tim-
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
An interesting range of responses and reactions …
Here’s mine, FWIW.
Perhaps its not so much that the Latin Church has “lost” traditions, per se, but rather that a fair degree of variability in the form of worship in the Mass is manifested in the Ordinary Form in practice. This is sometimes equated with a “loss of tradition”.
There is a greater degree of stability in the liturgical celebrations of the Eastern Catholic Churches, but that does not mean that the Divine Liturgy is celebrated in a completely homogenous fashion from parish to parish. In fact, we often revel in the slight variations in chant one might here from region to region, especially in the Old Country, but also in the diaspora.
Here’s mine, FWIW.
Perhaps its not so much that the Latin Church has “lost” traditions, per se, but rather that a fair degree of variability in the form of worship in the Mass is manifested in the Ordinary Form in practice. This is sometimes equated with a “loss of tradition”.
There is a greater degree of stability in the liturgical celebrations of the Eastern Catholic Churches, but that does not mean that the Divine Liturgy is celebrated in a completely homogenous fashion from parish to parish. In fact, we often revel in the slight variations in chant one might here from region to region, especially in the Old Country, but also in the diaspora.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
No offense, but this is a superficial comment. Have you been to an Eastern Church? We have our own problems with our own traditions, don’t think we have been immune. We have not.
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TrueLight
Guest
Thank you for this,
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ConstantineTG
Guest
I think people think just because the Byzantine Churches have used the same Liturgy from 400AD means that we have preserved traditions really well. There is a long list of problems and if one would spend some time in Eastern Catholic forums (such as the one here at CAF or at ByzCath) one would easily realize that there are many traditions that has been given up or lost through time. Even the Orthodox are not immune, nobody is. Remember that the Church, for a long time, existed within the Holy Roman Empire, an absolute monarchy dedicated to the faith. That no longer exists and everyone today is subject to a largely secular world. We live in a time similar to the time before Constantine the Great, where there are persecutions (literal physical torture and death in the Middle East of Christians, and the anti-Christian policies of the Western World) and the Church has no backing whatsoever from any government or superpower.Thank you for this,
We are all in the same boat. Our problems may manifest in different ways, but we all have very similar problems.
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LoyalViews
Guest
Indeed, the Eastern Church has been through their trials like the Latin Church.
The eastern Churches have been increasingly Latinised the past century or so, and unfortunately, are losing their traditions which are distinctly eastern (I hesitate to group the 22 sui juris churches into Eastern, because they are all their own, but to save time)…
Lately, the churches have been gaining bck their traditions and are slowly de-Latinising.
The Latin Church has not lost it’s traditions, but they HAVE been shoved into a corner by the progressive and leftist lot that came about in the 70’s and 80’s. Haven’t you noticed though, that lately they’ve been emerging more and more? Traditions are not lost, it’s the people who put them away.
The eastern Churches have been increasingly Latinised the past century or so, and unfortunately, are losing their traditions which are distinctly eastern (I hesitate to group the 22 sui juris churches into Eastern, because they are all their own, but to save time)…
Lately, the churches have been gaining bck their traditions and are slowly de-Latinising.
The Latin Church has not lost it’s traditions, but they HAVE been shoved into a corner by the progressive and leftist lot that came about in the 70’s and 80’s. Haven’t you noticed though, that lately they’ve been emerging more and more? Traditions are not lost, it’s the people who put them away.
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IbnFiktur
Guest
Others have already mentioned that the “problem” of “losing tradition” is present in every Church, so I won’t go into that. I would like to propose a somewhat different perspective, though:
All of us, and especially traditionalists, tend to look at the past with rose-tinted glasses. There is a tendency not to recognize that what is considered “traditional” now was at some point in time new and revolutionary. Gregorian Chant, for instance, was not around at the time of Christ… in fact Latin chants were not used at all in the time of Christ.
The Catholic Church (more so than the Orthodox) has always advocated for a sort of “development” of doctrine and theology, wherein the initial deposit of the faith is reinterpreted as circumstances in the world change while still remaining true to the fundamentals of the faith.
For instance, it was “traditional” in the Middle Ages to receive communion only a few times a year. That is no longer the case, and I think all but the must staunch traditionalists would agree that that is a good thing.
So my two cents is simply to avoid looking at the past with rose-tinted glasses, while still revering traditional practice as a valuable method of worship.
All of us, and especially traditionalists, tend to look at the past with rose-tinted glasses. There is a tendency not to recognize that what is considered “traditional” now was at some point in time new and revolutionary. Gregorian Chant, for instance, was not around at the time of Christ… in fact Latin chants were not used at all in the time of Christ.
The Catholic Church (more so than the Orthodox) has always advocated for a sort of “development” of doctrine and theology, wherein the initial deposit of the faith is reinterpreted as circumstances in the world change while still remaining true to the fundamentals of the faith.
For instance, it was “traditional” in the Middle Ages to receive communion only a few times a year. That is no longer the case, and I think all but the must staunch traditionalists would agree that that is a good thing.
So my two cents is simply to avoid looking at the past with rose-tinted glasses, while still revering traditional practice as a valuable method of worship.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
The problems of the Eastern Churches go beyond Latinizations. I’ve seen concessions made to placate parishioners and sacrifice tradition. Latinization has nothing to do with it. Some feel that its better to sacrifice tradition rather than drive some out of the Church. I don’t know, I can understand if its done because of ekonomia. But often it becomes a precedent.
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Tony_the_mad
Guest
Thank you. You said what I wanted to say but better.
I cannot say whether or not we have advocated for ‘development’ more than the Orthodox since I have no knowledge about how flexible the Orthodox are historically or even at present.
The Catholic flexibility in it rituals has been helpful in converting many different peoples, though. From the Americas to Africa and Papua New Guinea even to India and China where we have adapted rituals (‘becoming all things to all people’ as Paul did) we have succeeded and where we have not adapted rituals we have failed. Care must be taken to avoid changing that which must not be changed, but I think as a whole we have succeeded remarkably.
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TrueLight
Guest
Can you give an example of failure due to non-flexibility? I’m curious.
I have heard about concessions being made in some African countries for dance and other cultural things, while at the same time the FSSP is also in Africa.
youtube.com/watch?v=2ACWfQBYTZM
So I’m curious as to whether one way s more effective than the other.
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Wildkit
Guest
I find it interesting with my limited knowledge of perspective. In my state, I don’t know the number of Eastern Catholic Churches, but I suspect they are fewer than the number of fingers on my hand. I summarize, that the issue of “traditions” is less for these churches, as there are simply more of these other churches. There is no further lack of tradition in the Latin Church, as there is in any other Catholic Church. I thank my Lord we are all the same!
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