Why is it so hard to be traditional?

[floresco]

Language can evoke emotions. There is nothing wrong with that. It is not uncharitable to offend someone who is wrong-headed in the first place.

Whether or not it is charitable, it is likely to be counter-productive to offend people. Offending people is rarely persuasive.

 

[Cristiano]

“better” is not the right word. But I was forbidden from using the “better” word, if you get my drift. But to approximately answer your question, by better I mean:

“theologically superior, in that the truths of the Catholic faith are more clearly expressed and in that through clarity of expression, all possibility of erroneous interpretation of the purpose and function of the holy Mass is excluded”

In other words, it is not possible to read a transcript of a celebration of the traditional Mass and be confused about what holy Mass IS, while it is possible to be so confused if one were to read a transcript of a celebration of the novus ordo Mass.

That is why the novus ordo Mass is dt.

I understand what you are saying. I have my own opinions about the different forms of the Liturgy, and they are very strong. However, I am quite uncomfortable to declare one universally better or superior than the other when done accordingly to the dictates of the Church.

I think that in the endless debate of the OF vs. the EF usually people make the same mistake that is done in the debate of atheism vs. theism when the argument is limited to the presence of a measurable proof.

 

[floresco]

“theologically superior, in that the truths of the Catholic faith are more clearly expressed and in that through clarity of expression, all possibility of erroneous interpretation of the purpose and function of the holy Mass is excluded”

In other words, it is not possible to read a transcript of a celebration of the traditional Mass and be confused about what holy Mass IS, while it is possible to be so confused if one were to read a transcript of a celebration of the novus ordo Mass.

I like this way of putting it (except that some people seem to get upset by “novus ordo”.) I think this explains the issue without using hot-button words.

 

[wsxyz]

I understand what you are saying. I have my own opinions about the different forms of the Liturgy, and they are very strong. However, I am quite uncomfortable to declare one universally better or superior than the other when done accordingly to the dictates of the Church.

You should not be uncomfortable so. I have never been favored to see that a proponent of the novus ordo Mass was uncomfortable in that regard. They are quite willing to glorify the elimination of the “archaic” theology of sacrifice and reparation.

The novus ordo Mass is valid, approved, and we receive graces consonant with our dispositions when we assist at a novus ordo Mass. A novus ordo Mass is better than no Mass at all, especially if it is worthily and reverently celebrated. But the traditional Mass is still “better”.

I think that in the endless debate of the OF vs. the EF usually people make the same mistake that is done in the debate of atheism vs. theism when the argument is limited to the presence of a measurable proof.

Not everything is reducible to quantitative measurement. But anyone who accepts the theology of the Mass as declared at Trent (that is, any orthodox Catholic) can readily see the qualitative difference between the two by comparing the text of the two.

 

[maurin]

Can you please show me how this metric works? I am sorry to say but your answer sounds to me like propaganda. It reminds me of when someone once stated “We are the qualitative majority!”

This concept of a “metric” is yours. You may explain it. I borrowed it, and put it in quotes.

A propagandist I am not. But reading your response above makes it appear that you may have more experience in that field than I.

Now I do not mean to assume, so I ask simply for clarification: it appears you may be implying that the 2 millenia of Tradition is rightfully neglected for that of the past 40 years. Have I misunderstood?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

This concept of a “metric” is yours. You may explain it. I borrowed it, and put it in quotes.

A propagandist I am not. But reading your response above makes it appear that you may have more experience in that field than I.

Now I do not mean to assume, so I ask simply for clarification: it appears you may be implying that the 2 millenia of Tradition is rightfully neglected for that of the past 40 years. Have I misunderstood?

How does all this have anything to do with the topic? Of does everything turn into the OF vs EF?

 

[maurin]

How does all this have anything to do with the topic? Of does everything turn into the OF vs EF?

Annabelle, I am struggling myself with how your post has any thing to do with the conversation, except of course to offer an unwarranted dig.

Open your eyes, my dear madame. We had been discussing the merits of the different Canons in terms of their Theoligical clarity, for goodness sake.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

We understand that people are very passionate about this subject. It’s good to see people passionate about their faith and how they worship. However, please read your writing before posting. If you KNOW that a particular phrase, word or label will only trigger antagonism, please find another. We want to have a respectful exchange of ideas and perspectives.

Do not bring up or refer to messages that you may have received from a moderator. If the moderator wants to share something with everyone, he or she will post it.

Thank You

Thomas Casey

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Annabelle, I am struggling myself with how your post has any thing to do with the conversation, except of course to offer an unwarranted dig.

Open your eyes, my dear madame. We had been discussing the merits of the different Canons in terms of their Theoligical clarity, for goodness sake.

Forgive me if I’m wrong but wasn’t the original post…“why is it so hard to be traditional?”

I fail to see how your discussions help to answer that. In fact in my opinion it helps to fan the fire that goes on with both sides digging in. I just don’t see how that is constructive

 

[maurin]

Forgive me if I’m wrong but wasn’t the original post…“why is it so hard to be traditional?”

I fail to see how your discussions help to answer that. In fact in my opinion it helps to fan the fire that goes on with both sides digging in. I just don’t see how that is constructive

Now it’s your turn to forgive me Annabelle, but enough of your puerile, unmerited and ineffective effrontery. If you have not eyes nor intellect to follow a conversation, please do save yourself the public embarrassment from inappropriate comment.

ignoring a problem does not make it go away. If His Holiness saw no problem with the Mass as it now stands, pray tell me why you are now expecting your third rewrite of the Missal on the first Sunday of Advent next year, and pray tell me again if you believe that more are not forthcoming.

Converse with me respectfully, or do not converse with me at all.

And Kirk, if you are reading this, there really does not exist a subtle hostility to Traditionalists on this Forum?

 

[maurin]

Forgive me if I’m wrong but wasn’t the original post…“why is it so hard to be traditional?”

I fail to see how your discussions help to answer that. In fact in my opinion it helps to fan the fire that goes on with both sides digging in. I just don’t see how that is constructive

It is your turn now to forgive me, Annabelle, but I hardly understand your line of reasoning. Ignoring a problem does not make a problem go away. For example, why do you believe you are now experiencing your third edition of the Roman Missal the first Sunday of Advent next year? Is this revision on a whim, do you believe? Or is it a reaction to conversations like the one that was happening above.

I hope that helps to clear up any confusion on your part.

All the best,
maurin

 

[Cristiano]

This concept of a “metric” is yours. You may explain it. I borrowed it, and put it in quotes.

A propagandist I am not. But reading your response above makes it appear that you may have more experience in that field than I.

Now I do not mean to assume, so I ask simply for clarification: it appears you may be implying that the 2 millenia of Tradition is rightfully neglected for that of the past 40 years. Have I misunderstood?

Using a metric means to use an absolute or relative measurement (from the word meter unit of length). A metric is an objective and quantifiable measurement.

I still do not see how tradition and “Ancient Canon” is a metric to define the “higher quality” of a Mass. I am not saying that it is not, I just do not see how.

 

[maurin]

Using a metric means to use an absolute or relative measurement (from the word meter unit of length). A metric is an objective and quantifiable measurement.

I still do not see how tradition and “Ancient Canon” is a metric to define the “higher quality” of a Mass. I am not saying that it is not, I just do not see how.

Ok, I think I understand where we’re missing each other. I’m talking about the Theological clarity of the Canons, not the Rites themselves.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Momofmyangels]

I chose to become an educated, faithful Catholic when I was 16 and began attending TLM. There were many things I found difficult trying to live my faith, but a very holy priest I knew, gave me the best advice ever:

(In his gruff, but sweet manner)

“Tell the devil to go to hell! Keep your feet planted on God’s green Earth and keep walking toward Heaven!”

What he meant was, stop being tormented about what the right says, or the left says or how our pagan pop-culture tells you to live. ** LIVE YOUR FAITH SIMPLY!** Ignore what others tell you or when they try to discourage you–unite with our Lord and his Blessed Mother! Learn your faith-read, go to classes, meditate on it and LIVE IT, but simply. Don’t get caught up in useless arguments–just live your faith!

When I was 17-18 I prayed to find other young people who were also on fire with their faith and little-by-little I met other young people and we formed prayer groups and sports nights and get-togethers to support each other. Try to find good Catholic friends and do the same.

I am not sure how I missed this! Thank you for sharing. Your “very holy priest” sounds like someone I would very much like to meet.