Why is it so hard to debate gay marriage?

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frankieg

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Every time i try to debate gay marriage i feel like i can’t give a good answer to people who don’t believe in God. Does gay marriage really effect me personally? How can i help someone who believes church and state should be seperate understand my point of view?
 
Every time i try to debate gay marriage i feel like i can’t give a good answer to people who don’t believe in God. Does gay marriage really effect me personally? How can i help someone who believes church and state should be seperate understand my point of view?
Frankieg,

I kind of know what you mean. Some argue that it is a violation of the “natural law” - something I don’t really even understand - or whatever, but it really comes down to beliefs. There is either a god or there isn’t. If there is then there are set morals - if there isn’t anything goes.

Catholig
 
As for how gay marriage effects you personally though that’s pretty easy - however I’ll widen the scope to the whole gay agenda.
  • The gay agenda effects you because it tells you and the rest of the world that your religion is wrong about morality.
  • The gay agenda effects you because it is trying to make your freedom to express your beliefs on morality a “hate crime”
  • The gay agenda effects you because by its goal to redefine marriage it makes marriage nothing more than a social institution which the government can tamper with, instead of one founded by God.
  • The gay agenda is trying to find acceptance and is attempting to indoctrinate our children. This is true. They are literally making story books for children with “two daddies” and “two mommies”.
Catholig
 
I’m not interested in the topic of gay marriage, but it seems that those who vehemently oppose it are religious. I believe it is best for me to be silent about my sentiments towards this.
 
As for how gay marriage effects you personally though that’s pretty easy - however I’ll widen the scope to the whole gay agenda.
  • The gay agenda effects you because it tells you and the rest of the world that your religion is wrong about morality.
  • The gay agenda effects you because it is trying to make your freedom to express your beliefs on morality a “hate crime”
  • The gay agenda effects you because by its goal to redefine marriage it makes marriage nothing more than a social institution which the government can tamper with, instead of one founded by God.
  • The gay agenda is trying to find acceptance and is attempting to indoctrinate our children. This is true. They are literally making story books for children with “two daddies” and “two mommies”.
Catholig
I view it as singling people out on a difference and often that leads to loads of unfair stereotypical statements. The intensity and nastiness makes this a human rights issue as arguments intended to belittle same-gender preference people lead down a slippery slope to portray them as a second class citizen or even worse.
 
Oh, it’s certainly possible to understand your point of view, but agreeing with it is another matter entirely 😉
 
Midrath…agreed…a person’s sexuality effect no one…I have a couple of fundamentalist cousins…they tell me that accepting gay marriage will destroy marriage. I ask them…“How do the two lesbians who live across the street from them hurt their marriage?” I ask them “How has two lesbians living across the street hurt their marriage?” I ask them…“How did the two lesbians who live across the street cause each of their two previous divorces?” It seems to me the only thing that destroys “straight” marriage is “straight divorce”.

If one does’nt want the sanctity of marriage affected…don’t get a divorce…

The two lesbians had a “ceremony”…my cousin almost popped a cork…but the two lesbians have been a couple for almost 20 years…now Oregon law allowed them to form a “civil union”…and that “civil union” didn’t prevent the breakup of my cousins two previous marriage…it makes no sense to me…I guess I’m “invincibly ignorant” on the matter.
 
We are getting ahead of ourselves in these debates if we do not first establish some agreed upon foundation.

For instance, God’s existence, His supremacy, and His teachings.

Otherwise, anything beyond that becomes futile. it is like trying to teach calculus to someone who can’t add.
 
I’m not interested in the topic of gay marriage, but it seems that those who vehemently oppose it are religious. I believe it is best for me to be silent about my sentiments towards this.
As an employer I would be happy to argue against gay marriage due to the added cost for “benefits” that I would be forced to pay in many state. Further, as a private employer, I don’t like the whole concept of being told I have to insure whole classes of people that I don’t want to insure if I insure another class that is a legitimate group. It forces up my costs, which force up my prices to you, the consumer. It also takes away my incentive to even go into business for myself as the government dictates its opinions to me and I am not allowed to disagree with them, even if they bankrupt me!

As a tax payer, I would be happy to argue against gay marriage due to the added tax burden I incur when government employees get outrageous benefits already and adding another benefit onto to list is going to cost me more.

So I just gave you some non-religious reasons. But if you want those then we can get into that to.

The odd thing is that I know and consider some gays as friends. Just because I personally feel they are good people and worthy of friendship does not mean that I feel I should incur the financial burden of their high risk lifestyle, etc.
 
We are getting ahead of ourselves in these debates if we do not first establish some agreed upon foundation.

For instance, God’s existence, His supremacy, and His teachings.

Otherwise, anything beyond that becomes futile. it is like trying to teach calculus to someone who can’t add.
I believe in God’s existence, God’s supremacy, and God’s teachings…you and I just diagree on what those teachings are…equality under the law…the rule of law…not religious beliefs should dictate how our people are governed. If you do not wish to have a same sex “marriage” based on your religious beliefs…I’m ok with that…but to deny others their choice of the relationship they believe is ordained and blessed by God becasue you hold differing beliefs is not ok.

Neither of us will change the others view…I know that…city by city, county by county, state by state, nation by nation will eventually pass laws protecting it’s gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered citizens…it will happen…and it will happen becasue the rule of law is applied…not religious beliefs.
 
We are getting ahead of ourselves in these debates if we do not first establish some agreed upon foundation.

For instance, God’s existence, His supremacy, and His teachings.

Otherwise, anything beyond that becomes futile.
In which case, the whole debate is futile since even self-identified Catholics don’t always agree with Church (God’s) teachings. Toss in non-Catholics and non-Christians and the enterprise may well be hopeless - which I think was the OP’s point.
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melensdad:
Further, as a private employer, I don’t like the whole concept of being told I have to insure whole classes of people that I don’t want to insure if I insure another class that is a legitimate group.
As a tax payer, I would be happy to argue against gay marriage due to the added tax burden I incur when government employees get outrageous benefits already and adding another benefit onto to list is going to cost me more.

So I just gave you some non-religious reasons.
Are they really non-religious? In the first example you distinguish between legitimate and unworthy recipients of benefits. Isn’t this based upon your morality and thus religion? In the second case, you use the word “benefits” but I think you mean “beneficiary(ies)” - which again gets back to the issue of who is worthy or unworthy of such benefits.
 
I view it as singling people out on a difference and often that leads to loads of unfair stereotypical statements. The intensity and nastiness makes this a human rights issue as arguments intended to belittle same-gender preference people lead down a slippery slope to portray them as a second class citizen or even worse.
:yawn: :yawn: 'course you wouldn’t agree. You feel that the Church is wrong on this issue anyway, and that it needs about a hundred years to “catch up” and allow homosexuals to marry within the Church. Which means that god has allowed his Church to error for 2000 years in this regard and exclude people from the sacrament. That in fact he has allowed his church to improperly define this sacrament which he entrusted her with.

The only reason why this group can be singled out is because they are radically trying to redefine marriage, and bulldoze anyone who gets in their way (i.e. the Church).

Catholig
 
**As an employer I would be happy to argue against gay marriage due to the added cost for “benefits” that I would be forced to pay in many state. **

In what way would your potential costs be increased over employing only heterosexuals, unless you require your employees to remain single? Every one of your heterosexual employees could go out and get married to someone with 10 children tomorrow or decide to take up skydiving on a motorcycle as a hobby. You cannot control the “riskiness” of your employees’ private lives.

Actually, to use the argument of risk, I would think that one would be in favor of same sex marriage as opposed to promoting a potentially promiscuous (and therefore) more risky lifestyle by denying the opportunity for marriage (at least as much as marriage actually cuts down on riskiness of lifestyle for homosexual or heterosexual couples–depends on their level of commitment and attitude towards fidelity).

** Further, as a private employer, I don’t like the whole concept of being told I have to insure whole classes of people that I don’t want to insure if I insure another class that is a legitimate group. It also takes away my incentive to even go into business for myself as the government dictates its opinions to me and I am not allowed to disagree with them, even if they bankrupt me!**

Depends entirely on how many people you employ as to what parts of the EEO Act applies to you.
eeoc.gov/employers/overview.html as well as whether and which benefits you are required to provide to your employees.
vault.com/nr/newsmain.jsp?nr_page=3&ch_id=402&article_id=7122211&cat_id=1301
One makes a decision on whether to go into business based on a number of factors, including ability and willingness to comply with laws.

Companies already use a variety of strategies to avoid insuring people or manage the costs—refusing to offer insurance, independent contractors, temporary employees, giving a certain “allowance” that the employee can use toward his or her own insurance, offering differing rates to employees for employee, employee +1, employee +2 or more, etc.

Now, the reality of the market is that if you choose not to provide the benefits that others in your field are offering their employees you may have a harder time attracting and keeping good employees, but that is entirely your decision and has nothing to do with the government.

As a tax payer, I would be happy to argue against gay marriage due to the added tax burden I incur when government employees get outrageous benefits already and adding another benefit onto to list is going to cost me more.

Again, how would this increase your potential cost over the government only employing heterosexuals who may all marry or take up risky hobbies at any time they choose? This is not “adding another benefit.” The benefit already potentially exists for every employee.
 
:yawn: :yawn: 'course you wouldn’t agree. You feel that the Church is wrong on this issue anyway, and that it needs about a hundred years to “catch up” and allow homosexuals to marry within the Church. Which means that god has allowed his Church to error for 2000 years in this regard and exclude people from the sacrament. That in fact he has allowed his church to improperly define this sacrament which he entrusted her with.

The only reason why this group can be singled out is because they are radically trying to redefine marriage, and bulldoze anyone who gets in their way (i.e. the Church).

Catholig
The church has the most truth not all of the truth. If it had all of it church doctrine would not devlope and you would still be part of the Eastern Orthodox.

Church doctrine takes years to develop and people within the church always fights its development. At one time in the church a woman had no choice in her marriage, It was arranged and was the parents decision. She was little more then property. Was this wrong or just a step in development. The church also said at an earlier time that reason for marriage was the procreation of children that was all. It wasnt until recent church history that love and union between the spouse played any role almost approaching equality. The church does change or developes its doctines over times it includes more and when it chages it say it has a better interpretation of those in the past. Someday the church may very well include marriage between to males or females. Many Jesuits today are today putting forth why it does not go against marriage . It may be wrong it may be right only time will tell.
 
Catholig;2539847allow homosexuals to marry within the Church. Which means that god has allowed his Church to error for 2000 years in this regard and exclude people from the sacrament. That in fact he has allowed his church to improperly *[B said:
define[/B]

this sacrament which he entrusted her with.

Civil marriage has nothing to do with sacramental marriage.
 
I view it as singling people out on a difference and often that leads to loads of unfair stereotypical statements. The intensity and nastiness makes this a human rights issue as arguments intended to belittle same-gender preference people lead down a slippery slope to portray them as a second class citizen or even worse.
These sentiments are not consistent with the teachings of the Church.

Sodomy is one of the four sins that “cry to Heaven for justice”.

You are correct when you describe this as a human rights issue, but not in the way you intended. It is wrong to expose children to disordered and deviant behavior.
 
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