Why is it so wrong to deny the Holocaust and not Mao or Stalin's genocides?

[JimG]

Russia and China remained largely closed societies for many decades after WW II. I think that much of the documentation of the crimes of Stalin did not become widely known until after the collapse of the USSR. A new book by Timothy Snyder, Bloodlands–Europe Between Hitler and Stalin, helps to fill out the picture of these atrocities. Sometimes it seems that we just happen to live in a particularly halcyon period between great bloodlettings.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I wasn’t aware that it was ok to deny any of these holocausts? I believe in them all and have never met anyone who didn’t? I have never observed a mandate to believe in the Jewish Holocaust but not the others? I think the world community is pretty much in agreement about them all with the exception of a few nuts?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well I think you’re right in the exposure angle. When I mention the Holocaust to my sixth graders in conjunction with a couple of books we read, 90% of them have heard of it. When you mention “Stalin” or “Pol Pot’s Killing Fields” or Mao, they haven’t a clue.

I think it’s more of a failure to get out the historical word than it is that nobody cares or notices…

A lot of what Stalin did was covered up better than the Final Solution stuff. We found out A LOT about the Jewish Holocuast immediately at the end of WWII. The Stalinist starvations and purges and gulags weren’t as widely-known until after the Cold War was over…China’s Great Leap Forward was pretty well-publicized though…

Hard telling…

 

[tomarin]

I think it’s more of a failure to get out the historical word than it is that nobody cares or notices…

I wonder does it count as genocide when the people doing the killing are the same ethnicity as the people being killed (as in China and Cambodia)? Not that that makes it any less reprehensible.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Genocide— “the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group”, so I think you’re right that it fits the bill. I don’t think it has to be race on race, though…

Rwanda, Darfur, amazing that these are so MODERN and not discussed at all. I hate to say it but it seems that if there’s no U.S. interest there like oil, we’re slow to intervene and the UN just turns the other cheek…

Bosnia was a slaughterhouse, too. I remember my city taking in refugees from Bosnia, mostly Croats, during that “ethnic cleansing” fiasco in the Clinton years. Awful…they were nice folks…

I wonder does it count as genocide when the people doing the killing are the same ethnicity as the people being killed (as in China and Cambodia)? Not that that makes it any less reprehensible.

 

[LilyM]

Being of Eastern European extraction and having studied Chinese history in school, I’ve always been well aware of the atrocities of Stalin and Mao, and know plenty of other people who are as well.

My father used to say that in a sense (but only a very limited one, I would hasten to add) you could consider the work of Stalin (and by analogy Mao) even MORE evil than that of Hitler because he acted against his own people - the very people who had helped him get into power.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

True. I’m reading a book about Stalin, Lenin, and Hitler right now. And the emphasis on Hitler was one of intense loyalty to his cohorts (except the SA!) and officer corps, political cronies, etc. He maintained loyalty through taking care of his boys and that’s why he overlooked so much of the corruption and war profiteering and crookedness within the Reich and lamented in the bunker about how he should’ve “liquidated them like Stalin did!”

Stalin liquidated everyone, like you said. He cared not even about the communist cause of comintern, he cared about his own power, a Ghadaffi type loon. Hitler had an ideaology, as sick as it was, and did reward loyalty, which ended up costing him…

Being of Eastern European extraction and having studied Chinese history in school, I’ve always been well aware of the atrocities of Stalin and Mao, and know plenty of other people who are as well.

My father used to say that in a sense (but only a very limited one, I would hasten to add) you could consider the work of Stalin (and by analogy Mao) even MORE evil than that of Hitler because he acted against his own people - the very people who had helped him get into power.

 

[tomarin]

Genocide— “the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group”, so I think you’re right that it fits the bill. I don’t think it has to be race on race, though…

I was trying to suggest that perhaps one reason Stalin and Mao are seen as somehow less evil than Hitler is that they did what they did primarily to their own people rather than single out a besieged ethnic group like the Jews. (Of course one could say that the German Jews were Germans but not according to Der Fuhrer of course.)

(Footnote to the above: I’m not too familiar with the details of Stalin’s purges but I know he forcibly moved around populations that he thought would cause problems, so I suppose he was at least a semi-genocidal tyrant.)

Rwanda, Darfur, amazing that these are so MODERN and not discussed at all. I hate to say it but it seems that if there’s no U.S. interest there like oil, we’re slow to intervene and the UN just turns the other cheek…

I think one reason for that is that by international treaty the Western countries are obligated to intervene as soon as the word “genocide” is uttered. So the governments try to tiptoe around calling something a “genocide” unless and until they have committed to get involved.

Bosnia was a slaughterhouse, too. I remember my city taking in refugees from Bosnia, mostly Croats, during that “ethnic cleansing” fiasco in the Clinton years. Awful…they were nice folks…

I like Croats but weren’t they giving it to someone else?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I thought it was the Serbs primarily trying to “ethnically cleanse” the Croats? I could be remembering it wrong…

And I think Stalin and Hitler and all these guys are equally vile and diabolical. There is no real scale of evil. Pure scum all.

I was trying to suggest that perhaps one reason Stalin and Mao are seen as somehow less evil than Hitler is that they did what they did primarily to their own people rather than single out a besieged ethnic group like the Jews. (Of course one could say that the German Jews were Germans but in Hitler didn’t accept them as such of course.)

I think one reason for that is that by international treaty the Western countries are obligated to intervene as soon as the word “genocide” is uttered. So the governments try to tiptoe around calling something a “genocide” unless and until they have committed to get involved.

I like Croats but weren’t they giving it to someone else?

 

[tomarin]

I thought it was the Serbs primarily trying to “ethnically cleanse” the Croats? I could be remembering it wrong…

I thought the primary victim of ethnic cleansing was the Bosnian Muslims, at the hands of the Serbs mostly but possibly also some Croats, although the Serbs and the Croats also fought a war after Croatia declared independence from Yugoslavia (which by that point was mostly Serbia).

And I think Stalin and Hitler and all these guys are equally vile and diabolical. There is no real scale of evil. Pure scum all.

I agree once you get past a certain point they are all mind-bogglingly evil. I was thinking about this the other day when I inadvertantly found myself watching “Ni hao Kailan” because my children were watching it. I fantasized about a parallel world in which these kids shows took on serious topics and how “Ni hao Kailan” would deal with the issue of Tibetan autonomy from a strictly pro-Chinese propagandistic point of view.

 

[kingal86]

I thought the primary victim of ethnic cleansing was the Bosnian Muslims, at the hands of the Serbs mostly but possibly also some Croats, although the Serbs and the Croats also fought a war after Croatia declared independence from Yugoslavia (which by that point was mostly Serbia).

I just did a Bachelor dissertation (thesis) on Bosnia and that’s how I’d describe it. The Bosnian Muslims almost lost their state and identity, and risked being partitioned between Serbia and Croatia, until the belated 1995 NATO air strikes forced a peace deal. Though obviously it gets complicated…

Basically Croatia declared independence from Yugoslavia, and Croatian Serbs (Orthodox) ethnically cleansed (Catholic) Croats to create a Serb statelet in Croatia.

The Bosnian Muslims declared independence as well, and Bosnian Serbs did the same (and brutally besieged Sarajevo shooting at anyone who moved), but at one point there was Bosnian Croat-Muslim fighting as well.

And by the end of the war in 1995 the Croatian government re-took Serb-held Croatia and ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousands of Serbs (I said it got complicated…)

Don’t even get me started on the Kosovo issue…

 

[kildare]

To answer the question, I think the one of the reasons is that there hasnt been as much objective study put into the Russian and Chinese genoicides. I think this is for very obvious reasons, in that in one case the regime that perpetrated the crimes is still in place (and happens to be the world second biggest economy), while in the other the situation is not much better. Therefore I think a lot of the numbers bandied about these days, seem to be at best speculative. (not to detract from the enormity of the slaughter)
In contrast Germany was utterly defeated, and it was in the interests of everyone, including the newly formed german republic to find out every detail of what happend. So if its been established beyond doubt that 6million Jews died then, to say otherwise can be seen as merely trying to provoke mischief.

From a catholic point of view, does anyone here not find something even more unsettling about Hitlers plans to eliminate the Jews? Something actually diabolically inspired it seems to me!
The Holy Family, the apostles, Jesus, Mary and Joseph, had they been living then would, on account of their ethnicity, been sent into the gas chambers!!!
I know Pius deserves great credit for the work he did in secretly trying to save as many as he could, but frankly, all christians, with a few exceptions should hang their head in shame for what happened.

Its something that make me think everytime. So for me this crime is unequalled.

And I hate it when people give out about foreigners or make racist remarks or spew out hatred. We have to be ever vigilent and ever charitable.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

As long as China owns the United States, which it does, there won’t be ANY such criticism anywhere anytime! Trump is the only person who can criticize China! The communists fear the comb-over more than we do!

I thought the primary victim of ethnic cleansing was the Bosnian Muslims, at the hands of the Serbs mostly but possibly also some Croats, although the Serbs and the Croats also fought a war after Croatia declared independence from Yugoslavia (which by that point was mostly Serbia).

I agree once you get past a certain point they are all mind-bogglingly evil. I was thinking about this the other day when I inadvertantly found myself watching “Ni hao Kailan” because my children were watching it. I fantasized about a parallel world in which these kids shows took on serious topics and how “Ni hao Kailan” would deal with the issue of Tibetan autonomy from a strictly pro-Chinese propagandistic point of view.

 

[John_Carlton]

While we’re on the topic of Holocaust deniers… This is something that has been bothering me. There is a group of people calling themselves Catholic that deny the Holocaust, or at least the mass extinction. They also deny that the Popes succeeding Vatican II are valid. Anti-Popes they call them. What’s the deal with that? Why are these Jewish “conspiracies” so damn prevalent? I should expect a professed Catholic would realise that the Jews, before us, were the Chosen People. Precious in the eyes of Yahweh. Just thought I’d throw that in there…

God bless,

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I just went back and read about it. It’s a TERRIBLY confusing conflict…but from what I read online it said ethnic cleansing was carried out by the Serb army toward Croats and Muslims…as to the numbers…Everything I read says Muslims and Croats but only the Muslim casualties are listed each time? I know in our town we took in a ton of Croats AND Serbs and both hated each other passionately. They stayed apart on campus bigtime. The Croats were generally considered the victims but some of the Serbs, for whatever reason, were considered refugees as well. I remember at our church the dialogue was about the Croats as the targets mainly…

It’s weird how the whole Bosnian conflict was not covered very well and in movies we scarcely hear of it. That flick with Owen Wilson, “Behind Enemy Lines” is one of the only films I can even think of that involved Bosnia??

Rwanda and Darfur are never even discussed…it’s pretty sickening…all these poor victims are worthy of films, documentaries, books, and honor IMO…

I thought the primary victim of ethnic cleansing was the Bosnian Muslims, at the hands of the Serbs mostly but possibly also some Croats, although the Serbs and the Croats also fought a war after Croatia declared independence from Yugoslavia (which by that point was mostly Serbia).

I agree once you get past a certain point they are all mind-bogglingly evil. I was thinking about this the other day when I inadvertantly found myself watching “Ni hao Kailan” because my children were watching it. I fantasized about a parallel world in which these kids shows took on serious topics and how “Ni hao Kailan” would deal with the issue of Tibetan autonomy from a strictly pro-Chinese propagandistic point of view.

 

[aball1035]

While we’re on the topic of Holocaust deniers… This is something that has been bothering me. There is a group of people calling themselves Catholic that deny the Holocaust, or at least the mass extinction. They also deny that the Popes succeeding Vatican II are valid. Anti-Popes they call them. What’s the deal with that? Why are these Jewish “conspiracies” so damn prevalent? I should expect a professed Catholic would realise that the Jews, before us, were the Chosen People. Precious in the eyes of Yahweh. Just thought I’d throw that in there…

God bless,

You’ve hit on a broad range of topics-many of which I’m still trying to decipher myself.

The group of people who believe the post Vatican II popes aren’t valid are called Sedevacantists (meaning Peter’s seat is vacant). I happen to be one of them They don’t have anything to do with Holocaust deniers because one topic’s theology and the other’s history, but many Sedevanantists are also Holocaust deniers. You should know though, that Sedevacantism is currently a banned topic on Catholic Answers last time I checked.

The Jewish conspiracies are so prevalent with Sedevacantists because well, that’s the conclusion many have come to. I’m still reading into these conspiracies, and have found some to be true and some to be false. Thing is, in this society-especially in politics and the media, you cannot say anything bad about Jews or Israel, so that adds to the secrecy. The once-Chosen people have a grasp today on American media.

However, I’ve never known one Catholic to “hate” Jews as many would have you believe. They are just against Zionist control.

 

[aball1035]

[No message]

 

[crystal_waters]

It seems like the modern man’s dogma-don’t deny the holocaust or else you’re in trouble!

I’m wondering though, why Mao Tse-Tung’s or Stalin’s genocides (50-70 million and 20 million people, respectively, compared with the Holocaust’s 6 million) don’t get treated with nearly enough attention? If somebody denies those, then you’re considered wierd, but not a bad person. But deny the Holocaust, you’re toast.

Why the difference?

if you know about them enough to be able to give us figures of how many has died then i dont think they have been denied…they obviously just didnt get enough publicity…

 

[aball1035]

From what I have read (from things like Protocols of Zion, Rosenthal Interview, etc), Zionists are certain Jews who are bent upon world revolution. This does not refer to your “average” Jew at all. I never said all Jews have a grasp on America’s media anyways.
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[aball1035]

Forgive me if I failed to refer to the subsection of the Jewish people. It was not my intention. My motive for asking the question in the first place was because I’m genuinely interested. I have certain beliefs, but would like to know what others say as well.

I said wrote average in quotation marks because I meant the ordinary Jewish population, like you (I assume) and I.
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