Why is it that Cathloics praying to Mary or The saints a bigstumbling block

[Bill_Pick]

Bill, read the article, and you will see where classic SS comes from. When you say things like, “Lets not forget their private interpretation and the Sunday school teacher interpreatations” it just appears that you don’t understand ss, whether or not you consider it false. I would agree with you that, as you describe it here, SS is false.

I was raised Lutheran, went through Catechetical Class and Confirmation. Never once was I told to interpret scripture for myself, or that I even had the freedom to do so. I was taught from scripture, the confessions, etc. As Martin Chemnitz said:

So, from the earliest, personal interpretation of scripture is discouraged.

Jon

Jon Please does SS say bible Alone, yes or no…lets start here Ok

 

[YADA]

I guess I just have a hard time seeing the distinction between praying to someone who is no longer living and asking for something of someone who is no longer living. Well, sure, the saints are living with God, but does that actually give them the ability to hear us? I know Biblically that God can always hear me, whether I speak out loud or say something in my mind, but can a saint hear me if I just say something in my mind? How does a saint have that ability? Is it in the Scriptures that saints have that ability? It seems to me that Catholics are assigning God-like abilities to saints if they say that saints can hear their requests, and it just seems like a nit-picky semantic difference to say that making such a requst is not actually praying, when you are making it to someone who has a God-like ability. At least that is why I see it as a stumblingblock, anyway. I don’t know if that is how others see it.

The Rich Man [condemned] could communicate with Abraham [he recognised him too even though Abraham was unknown to him in his life] and Lazarus across the chasm that seperates the condemned from those who live in God’s presence. He could and did ask first for himself, then for his brothers …

The Book of Revelation tells us there are saints in heaven. They ask when the earthly trials will end and they will be vindicated. They are told that more of their brethren are still to join their ranks before any vindication will come.

Much of what we know of God is expressed in weak and human terms that fail to convey all that is of the Holy Trinity. These are profound mysteries. They are our fate … How is Jesus both fully Human and fully God? We explain it as best we can, understand it to our human limitations and then essentially we accept it on faith.

The word pray means to “ask” …We are united in the Community of Believers, the Church, the Body of Christ, His Bride. We [this community] exist past, present and future. We do not stop being the Body or Bride when we ‘die’ in this life … we remain so as we rise to our new life in Christ … Jesus is the Lord of the Living not the dead.

Our prayers are holy and pleasing to God. We pray for each other and with each other in petition, praise and Thanksgiving to God. What builds up one, build up all.

As for the use of the word pray being to ask or only to worship … Some say that to pray is to worship … but if you asked another to pray for you … would you be asking them to worship for you or to worship you? . … No … legal papers are called ‘pleadings’ even to this day … a prayer before the court … whose Judge is called “Your Honor” or “Your Worship” … no one confuses an English Lord with The Lord Jesus Christ …

The first Christians thought Jesus would return before they died … when Jesus did not return and the Christian community began to die, they wondered if they had missed their chance at salvation … we are told in scripture that even thought they die, they have life everlasting … thay are partakers of the Gospel, Heirs, raised to new life …

The 1st and 2nd century Christians had inscriptions on their grave markers requesting prayers. They appealed to the saints … even the early reformers recognized the saints … 2000 years of Christian faith and practice acknowledged the Communion of Saints …

Why would you persist in making this [allowing] a “stumbling block” for you

 

[JonNC]

Jon Please does SS say bible Alone, yes or no…lets start here Ok

Ok, Bill.
As the sole final norm, yes.
As to exclude the creeds, the ECF’s, the ecumenical councils of the undivided church, tradition, confessional statements, etc., that do not contradict scripture? no.

Jon

 

[Bill_Pick]

Ok, Bill.
As the sole final norm, yes.
As to exclude the creeds, the ECF’s, the ecumenical councils of the undivided church, tradition, confessional statements, etc., that do not contradict scripture? no.

Jon

was we not talking about SS and not creeds. The phrase sola scriptura is from the Latin: sola having the idea of “alone,” “ground,” “base,” and the word scriptura meaning “writings” - referring to the Scriptures. Sola scriptura means that Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian. The Bible is complete, authoritative, and true. "All Scripture is ‘God breathed’ (given of inspiration of God) and is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness

 

[JonNC]

was we not talking about SS and not creeds. The phrase sola scriptura is from the Latin: sola having the idea of “alone,” “ground,” “base,” and the word scriptura meaning “writings” - referring to the Scriptures. Sola scriptura means that Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian. The Bible is complete, authoritative, and true. "All Scripture is ‘God breathed’ (given of inspiration of God) and is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness

Hi Bill,
From the Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration

1. First , then, we receive and embrace with our whole heart] the Prophetic and Apostolic Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as the pure, clear fountain of Israel, which is the only true standard by which all teachers and doctrines are to be judged.

4] 2. **And since of old the true Christian doctrine, in a pure, sound sense, was collected from God’s Word into brief articles or chapters against the corruption of heretics, we confess, in the second place, the three Ecumenical Creeds, namely, the Apostles’, the Nicene, and the Athanasian, as glorious confessions of the faith, brief, devout, and founded upon God’s Word, in which all the heresies which at that time had arisen in the Christian Church are clearly and unanswerably refuted. **
bookofconcord.org/sd-ruleandnorm.php

There is more, which talks about our confessions. Suffice that for Lutherans, sola scriptura is the final norm, but does not exclude other writings or tradition, councils or creeds. What others say of sola scriptura, or the false teaching solo scriptura, is irrelevant.

Jon

 

[Bill_Pick]

Hi Bill,
From the Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration

1. First , then, we receive and embrace with our whole heart] the Prophetic and Apostolic Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as the pure, clear fountain of Israel, which is the only true standard by which all teachers and doctrines are to be judged.

4] 2. **And since of old the true Christian doctrine, in a pure, sound sense, was collected from God’s Word into brief articles or chapters against the corruption of heretics, we confess, in the second place, the three Ecumenical Creeds, namely, the Apostles’, the Nicene, and the Athanasian, as glorious confessions of the faith, brief, devout, and founded upon God’s Word, in which all the heresies which at that time had arisen in the Christian Church are clearly and unanswerably refuted. **
bookofconcord.org/sd-ruleandnorm.php

There is more, which talks about our confessions. Suffice that for Lutherans, sola scriptura is the final norm, but does not exclude other writings or tradition, councils or creeds. What others say of sola scriptura, or the false teaching solo scriptura, is irrelevant.

Jon

Jon Does your church teach Sola Scriptura ???

 

[Bill_Pick]

Jon Does your church teach Sola Scriptura ???

PS Jon How did we get to SS from pray to Mary

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

If our priest teaches an erroneous doctrine not conforming to the dogmas and other doctrines of the catholic church, we, laymen, can bring this problem to the higher ups, the Parish priest, the Bishops, or for extreme cases to the Pope.
But in Protestantism, where would you go, if this happens in your church, because they (Pastors) are independent of their teachings as long as it is found in the bible. Am I not right?

FYI - Fundamentalism includes a minority of Protestantism; except, perhaps, in the USA. And even in FP, there is some sort of authority; it merely happens not to be identiucal to that in US RCism; that doesn’t make it non-existent. And not all Protestantism is “Bible only” - Catholics have been told this again & again. ​

 

[simplynoone]

We ask for intercession, we don’t pray to the saints. Praying to the saints would be a form of idoltry, since only God may be prayed to, for prayer is union with God. But we don’t pray to saints. We just ask for their intercession. Sometimes, though, we say “we pray to the saints”, because we forget that using incorrect language can spell disasterous results, but when we do say that, what we mean is that we ask for the saints’ intercession.

I can give an illustration, if that will help. On one hand, we pray to God, we ask Him for everything and we give Him thanks and praise. On the other hand, we ask the saints to pray to God for us, to obtain from Him graces. It is probably this - obtaining grace - that confuses non-Catholics, who think ‘How can a saint obtain a grace? Isn’t that something only God can do?’ God alone dispenses His graces, but He dose so through creatures: so He speaks to men through angels, He gives wisdom to men through wise leaders, He saves souls from evil through the talents of heros, He brings babes into the world through mothers. It is not because God can’t do it Himself, but because He is so omnipotent that He has given unto us many channels of graces, so to speak. But non-Catholics may not understand this, yet it is easy to understood once you see that, just as Jesus came into the world through Mary, so dose His graces come into the world through creatures.

Because Necromancy is strictly forbidden by God… in fact, it is considered an abomination. Necromancy is the conjuring of the dead’s spirits and that is what you are doing regardless of the reasoning that you claim.

 

[mark_a]

Because Necromancy is strictly forbidden by God… in fact, it is considered an abomination. Necromancy is the conjuring of the dead’s spirits and that is what you are doing regardless of the reasoning that you claim.

Necromancy and the occult try to obtain information from the dead’s spirits.

 

[simplynoone]

Necromancy and the occult try to obtain information from the dead’s spirits.

Does not matter… the definition of necromancy is to try to communicate with the spirits of the dead. That is what was described by the OP. That is necromancy and that is strictly forbidden and found to be an abomination according to God. Whether one admits that it is a practice of the occult or rather tries to justify it as being holy, it is still forbidden and considered an abomination. There really was no room left for argument when the practice was forbidden in the Tanakh.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

That is necromancy and that is strictly forbidden and found to be an abomination according to God. Whether one admits that it is a practice of the occult or rather tries to justify it as being holy, it is still forbidden and considered an abomination. There really was no room left for argument when the practice was forbidden in the Tanakh.

No one here is even thinking about justifying necromancy!!

But what is it you are trying to say, that it is possible, not only to “keep the commandments,” as Christ instructed us to do, but even to keep them perfectly?

“If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” Matthew 19:17
usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew19.htm

---

I admit that it is there (in Rome) that the Holy Church dwells, that it holds the trophies and relics of the holy apostles and the martyrs, that there the true confession of Christ is made; it was there that the faith was preached by the princes of the Church, and on that spot paganism was trampled in the dust.

The Life of Saint Jerome, the Great Doctor of the Church, in Six Books, From the Original Spanish of the Reverend Father Fray José de Sigüenza, Professed Monk of the Royal Monastery of San Lorenzo, Madrid, 1595, translated by Mariana Monteiro, (1907), book 2, p. 119.

books.google.com/books?id=usN_YUMgg2cC&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=%22trophies+and+relics+of+the+holy+apostles+and+the+martyrs%22&source=bl&ots=fbSiBE86DI&sig=EaDzwYVCczsZfcEwB8vPm-zMsyY&hl=en&ei=cBm_SeSbHcXctgeO_PRR&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

 

[JonNC]

Jon Does your church teach Sola Scriptura ???

Bill,
In the terms I outlined, yes. The classical understanding of sola scriptura.

PS Jon How did we get to SS from pray to Mary

I think because you said:

I think the only fear people have is that might be seen as taking the place of praying to Christ one-on-one, which isn’t the case.[/QUOT non-cathloic have a hard time with Cathloic teaching because of sola scriptura and private interpreatation.

and

Lets not forget their private interpretation and the Sunday school teacher interpreatations

Then I said some stuff, and here we are.

Do you still want to hear what I think of intercessory prayers to the BVM and saints?
Jon

EDIT: Too late, Bill. See below.
[/quote]

 

[JonNC]

Does not matter… the definition of necromancy is to try to communicate with the spirits of the dead. That is what was described by the OP. That is necromancy and that is strictly forbidden and found to be an abomination according to God. Whether one admits that it is a practice of the occult or rather tries to justify it as being holy, it is still forbidden and considered an abomination. There really was no room left for argument when the practice was forbidden in the Tanakh.

As a Lutheran, I find this line of thinking perilous. While I don’t practice intercession of the BVM and saints, I am reluctant to condemn it as you have here. This is a practice that dates back to the early church. While there have been abuses in the past, it is, to me, and when properly understood by participants, a pious activity that has brought comfort to billions of Christians, east and west, through the centuries.

We may disagree as to whether or not it is God’s wish, or scriptural, but I don’t think it is anything akin to the occult, and I don’t think it is an abomination as presented here.

Jon

 

[Bill_Pick]

Bill,
In the terms I outlined, yes. The classical understanding of sola scriptura.


I think because you said:

and

Then I said some stuff, and here we are.

Do you still want to hear what I think of intercessory prayers to the BVM and saints?
Jon

EDIT: Too late, Bill. See below.

Jon i must be getting old I just can,t remember What you believe is what you believe and what I blieve is what I believe OK leys leave it here,have a great night and may Our Kord bless You.===peace

 

[JonNC]

Jon i must be getting old I just can,t remember What you believe is what you believe and what I blieve is what I believe OK leys leave it here,have a great night and may Our Kord bless You.===peace

I understand the getting old part.
Blessings to you,
Jon

 

[LilyM]

I guess I just have a hard time seeing the distinction between praying to someone who is no longer living and asking for something of someone who is no longer living. Well, sure, the saints are living with God, but does that actually give them the ability to hear us? I know Biblically that God can always hear me, whether I speak out loud or say something in my mind, but can a saint hear me if I just say something in my mind? How does a saint have that ability? Is it in the Scriptures that saints have that ability? It seems to me that Catholics are assigning God-like abilities to saints if they say that saints can hear their requests, and it just seems like a nit-picky semantic difference to say that making such a requst is not actually praying, when you are making it to someone who has a God-like ability. At least that is why I see it as a stumblingblock, anyway. I don’t know if that is how others see it.

Well, you surely can’t suggest that they don’t hear us at all? That they are in fact LESS powerful in that regard than we are? I always think of the line of St Paul’s - that when we are in heaven ‘we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He really is’. In other words those currently in heaven share His ability to hear the prayers of all mankind.

That they do so does not in any way detract from God, for being able to hear many people at a distance IS a characteristic He grants to people at times - to St John in Revelation, for example, where John sees and hears all creatures in heaven, earth and the underworld simultaneously.

We know, for example, that the angels present ‘the prayers of the saints’ to God (Revelation) - they surely need to hear those prayers to be able to present them to God. And we have at least proof that angels can both communicate with us (as Gabriel did to Zechariah and Mary) and God.

So start by seeking the intercession of the angels - Michael and Gabriel. Which is surely permissible and appropriate - and in fact their assigned role. And then realise that we are in fact higher than the angels - God did not take on their form, nor are they made in His image and likeness as we are. It stands to reason then that we, in our glorified state, will be as or more powerful than they.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Well, you surely can’t suggest that they don’t hear us at all? That they are in fact LESS powerful in that regard than we are? I always think of the line of St Paul’s - that when we are in heaven ‘we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He really is’. In other words those currently in heaven share His ability to hear the prayers of all mankind.

That they do so does not in any way detract from God, for being able to hear many people at a distance IS a characteristic He grants to people at times - to St John in Revelation, for example, where John sees and hears all creatures in heaven, earth and the underworld simultaneously.

We know, for example, that the angels present ‘the prayers of the saints’ to God (Revelation) - they surely need to hear those prayers to be able to present them to God. And we have at least proof that angels can both communicate with us (as Gabriel did to Zechariah and Mary) and God.

So start by seeking the intercession of the angels - Michael and Gabriel. Which is surely permissible and appropriate - and in fact their assigned role. And then realise that we are in fact higher than the angels - God did not take on their form, nor are they made in His image and likeness as we are. It stands to reason then that we, in our glorified state, will be as or more powerful than they.

AMEN

 

[WarriorAngel]

Truly the Saints know what is going on.

Revelation aka Apocalypse says that ‘The Saints will judge nations’.
How does one judge if one does not know what is going on?

And we will be ‘like God’ in Heaven. Which means surely we can hear those calling our names.
And being a Heavenly being - our love for those still on earth doesn’t just disappear.
…but grows.

Peace

 

[Bookworm88]

Well, you surely can’t suggest that they don’t hear us at all? That they are in fact LESS powerful in that regard than we are?

Do you have the power right now to hear people pray a thousand miles away? I don’t think you do, so when I say that the people up in heaven do not have that power, I am not assigning them LESS power than you have.

I always think of the line of St Paul’s - that when we are in heaven ‘we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He really is’. In other words those currently in heaven share His ability to hear the prayers of all mankind.

So when we get to heaven, and we are like Christ, do we have all the other attributes of Christ as well, such as being onmiscient and omnipresent? Surely you are not saying that we have those attributes as well. So why would you think we have the attribute of hearing everybody praying from here on earth? Christ not only hears prayers, but can also see every sinful action we commit. Do you also believe the saints have the ability to see all our sinful actions?

That they do so does not in any way detract from God, for being able to hear many people at a distance IS a characteristic He grants to people at times - to St John in Revelation, for example, where John sees and hears all creatures in heaven, earth and the underworld simultaneously.

I notice you used the phrase “at times.” When God had a special revelation to give to someone, then God gave that revelation, but that does not mean that John continued to have that ability apart from that special circumstance.

We know, for example, that the angels present ‘the prayers of the saints’ to God (Revelation) - they surely need to hear those prayers to be able to present them to God.

Why would they surely need to hear them? I am a mailman, so I deliver letters to people every day, but I surely do not read the letters in order to deliver them.

And we have at least proof that angels can both communicate with us (as Gabriel did to Zechariah and Mary) and God.

Yes, when God assigned angels to specific tasks, they fulfilled those tasks, but I don’t see the Bible stating that angels have a prayer answering service. When people would talk to the angels, such as Gabriel, they talked to angels who had appeared in front of them. They didn’t pray to angels who were not right there with them.

So start by seeking the intercession of the angels - Michael and Gabriel. Which is surely permissible and appropriate - and in fact their assigned role.

Can you show me where in the Bible we have intercession being the assigned role of Michael and Gabriel. The Bible actually describes only Christ as being our intercessor.

And then realise that we are in fact higher than the angels - God did not take on their form, nor are they made in His image and likeness as we are. It stands to reason then that we, in our glorified state, will be as or more powerful than they.

That doesn’t “stand to reason” in my mind at all. I could be a puny 5 foot tall general in the army, and I would be higher than a 6 foot, 300 pound private. I would have more aothority, but that doesn’t mean I would have all his attributes.

The way I see it, you guys really DO assign God attributes to created beings, and then relate to them in a manner similar to what God demands as His alone.