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guanophore
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It is against the forum rules to post or discuss unapproved apparitions.
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BryanM27
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FrJohnB,
Can you please repost that link? I know I haven’t read it, and I’m sure others have ignored it and simply labeled it as heresy as well.
Also I would like to know your response to the allegations that what you are stating is different from what the Church teaches. I admit I wasn’t following that debate within this thread until someone called it heresy.
And to everyone else, " Making any negative statements about our bishops, deacons, priests, sisters or religious brothers is not allowed. Speaking to anyone of them in an inappropriate tone while on the forum is not allowed."
See this post from the mods: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=452861
Can you please repost that link? I know I haven’t read it, and I’m sure others have ignored it and simply labeled it as heresy as well.
Also I would like to know your response to the allegations that what you are stating is different from what the Church teaches. I admit I wasn’t following that debate within this thread until someone called it heresy.
And to everyone else, " Making any negative statements about our bishops, deacons, priests, sisters or religious brothers is not allowed. Speaking to anyone of them in an inappropriate tone while on the forum is not allowed."
See this post from the mods: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=452861
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guanophore
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Yes. I have heard my separated brethren say this was just because they were overly influenced by Catholicism, and failed to break away far enough.just a quick question. hopefully its not off topic. but what is the history of of anti-marian theology? for lack of a better term. i though Martin Luther, and John Calvin never gave up their Catholic beliefs about Her. i could be wrong.Peace
Interesting that their other ideas are accepted without question on this point…
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guanophore
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A woman, even a mother, and a cadre of younger siblings would never take it upon themselves to correct the elder brother, who is a rabbi.
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Leeann
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What did Pope John Paul say about the Holy Spirit as Advocate: (excerpts - as it’s too long to post)
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19890524en.html
General Audience May 24, 1989
The Holy Spirit as Advocate
When Jesus in the upper room, on the eve of his passion, announced the coming of the Holy Spirit, he did so in the following terms: “The Father will give you another Paraclete.”
These words indicate that Christ himself is the first Paraclete, and that the Holy Spirit’s action will be like that of Christ and in a sense prolong it.
Jesus Christ, indeed, was the “defender” and remains such. John himself will say so in his First Letter: “If anyone does sin, we have an advocate (parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (1 Jn 2:1).
The advocate (defender) is he who, taking the part of those who are guilty because of sin committed, defends them from the penalty due to their sins, and saves them from the danger of losing eternal life and salvation. This is precisely what Jesus Christ did. The Holy Spirit is called the Paraclete because he continues Christ’s redemptive work which freed us from sin and eternal death.
**The action of the Holy Spirit is that of “bearing witness.” It is an interior, “immanent” action in the hearts of the disciples, who then bear witness to Christ externally. **Through that immanent presence and action, the transcendent power of the truth of Christ who is the Word-Truth and Wisdom, is manifested and advances in the world.
Jesus Christ, indeed, was the “defender” and remains such. John himself will say so in his First Letter: “If anyone does sin, we have an advocate (parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (1 Jn 2:1).
The advocate (defender) is he who, taking the part of those who are guilty because of sin committed, defends them from the penalty due to their sins, and saves them from the danger of losing eternal life and salvation. This is precisely what Jesus Christ did. The Holy Spirit is called the Paraclete because he continues Christ’s redemptive work which freed us from sin and eternal death.
**The Holy Spirit ”the Spirit of truth, the Paracleteâ ”is he **who according to the words of Christ, “will convince the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment” (Jn 16:8).
We can therefore conclude that in bearing witness to Christ, **the Paraclete **is an assiduous (though invisible) advocate and defender of the work of salvation, and of all those engaged in this work. He is also the guarantor of the definitive triumph over sin and over the world subjected to sin, in order to free it from sin and introduce it into the way of salvation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
**Now in comparison **what does this Catholic organization say about **Mary as Advocate **and (excerpts-again too long) of previous Papal teachings:
christendom-awake.org/default.html
MARY
ADVOCATE FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD
Papal Teaching on Mary, Advocate for the People of GodThe authoritative teachings of the Papal Magisterium continue the historical recognition **and development of Mary’s doctrinal role as Advocate for the People of God. **From the sixteenth century onwards, the Mother of God has been repeatedly referred to by the popes as “our Advocate”[282] with Christ on behalf of the faithful.
The papal teachings of the last two centuries have most fully recognized and officially taught this scriptural and patristic role of Advocate by the Mother of Jesus for the People of God.
Pope Pius VII, at the turn of the nineteenth century, teaches Mary’s unique maternal role to be advocate to her Son in the order of intercession for humanity :
“…While the prayers of those in heaven have, it is true, some claim on God’s watchful eye, Mary’s prayers place their assurance in a mother’s right. For that reason, when she approaches her divine Son’s throne, as Advocate she begs,** as Handmaid she **prays, but as Mother she commands.”[283]
Pius XII explains the task of Mary, Advocate with her Son, in her intercessory and conciliatory role on behalf of sinners:
“**Our Advocate, placed between God and the sinner, takes it upon herself **to invoke clemency of the Judge so as to temper His justice, touch the heart of the sinner and overcome his obstinacy.”[288]
Mary’s role as Advocate is inseparably linked to the Holy Spirit, the promised Paraclete of the Saviour (cf. Jn 15:26), to whom the Advocate interceded on behalf of the early disciples of the Lord at Pentecost (cf. Acts 1:4).
**Note here: This last paragraph is simply misleading - for when you read Acts1:4 - Mary is not mentioned at all as interceding on behalf of the early disciples of the Lord at Pentecost.
Acts 1:4
And being assembled together with them,(the apostles)he commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which”, He said, "you have heard from Me;
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Leeann
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JharekCarmelian - May I remind you that it was you who initiated the first post…and I responded…has that upset you in some way?
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guanophore
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Bring him over here!You can say that again. My parish priest is into new age and find’s nothing wrong with panentheism.
We will chat him up!
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guanophore
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No faithful Catholic will make a comment like “here is the problem with Marian dogma” with regard to Scripture. There is no “problem”- there is no conflict.Get used to it in here, Father. After a while you might even be accused of not having enough faith in Christ or being a “cafeteria Catholic.” There are many labels and litmus tests abounding in CAF by people who disagree. It’s unfortunate. And often when you ask a question, you’ll get a socratic-style question to answer your question. Good times…
Now, perhaps he is pointing out that our separated brethren have a problem because they are "bible based’ and Catholics are not. After reading some of his posts, it seems that he is trying to elucidate how he sees the problem. He did say that we take it on “faith” and not what is revealed in Scripture. But we do this because it is part of the Divine Deposit, not because it is “extrapolated” as was suggested here.
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guanophore
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Yes, I am catching up! Thanks for that.
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Leeann
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More talking/praising of and about Mary than Jesus/God - (if anything about Jesus/God) - I guess you’d call them “shrines” in entranceway halls (*Marian statues/bowls of Marian prayer cards and complete bedrooms with pictures/statues…of Mary * - but it’s the **complete focus **that is given to her with regards to what ‘she can do’…which surpasses what many Catholics here and others that I know attest to doing, (which is asking her to pray for them)…this is asking and expecting results based solely on her abilities…no honour, no glory to Christ/God…it is ALL about Mary.Maybe if you could give an example we could better respond to the issue that you have where you believe that SOME CASES border on worship.
Then there’s the obvious things not so close to home - but when I see pictures of crowned statues of her being paraded around with people bowing and praying…(including Popes)…it saddens me…I can’t imagine Mary, the mother of our Lord wanting all that attention for herself.
Hope that helps.
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guanophore
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They are told that they have confusion and chaos because it is true. It is not the denominations, though, those are the fruit of division. What causes division is heresy - departing from the Truth.So what’s happening here…a Catholic poster has stated that his priest is into “New Age”…some other Catholic posters are arguing with a priest that some of his opinions do not line up with what the CC proclaims…other posters site poor catechizing as the reason that there may be some “Mary Worshippers” floating around out there…
And yet Protestants are told that they have ‘confusion’ and ‘chaos’ because of all their denominations…
There is ONE FAITH, and we are to be of one mind concerning it. Any Catholic, whether it is a priest, deacon, bishop or layperson who departs from the once for all Divine Deposit of faith entrusted to the Churh has departed from the Truth, and is causing a wound to unity.
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Leeann
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Oh okay…as long as I haven’t upset you.
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guanophore
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We said that his comments did not sound consistent with the Catholic faith. That is not a personal attack.
All of us have made expressions on here that may not sound consistent with the Catholic faith.
If they don’t sound right, and we think he may be faking that he is a priest, don’t you think we ougth to say so? I mean, you can role play that you are any one on here, and many have done so. We have no idea who he is, or what he believes. We can only go based on what we read.
Yes, we are here to discuss opinons and ideas. When a person claims to be a Catholic priest, and yet purports ideas that do not sound Catholic, how did you expect us to react?
If you believe this, then you don’t know us very well.
I am blessed with a very holy bishop, and have never had occasion to argue with him. That is not to say I would not. with all due respect, of course!
It is true that we tend to be somewhat fanatical about our faith.
It seems that you are right. I just did not like the manner in which he presented it. It sounded like he was advocating that Mary had other children by Joseph.
There is a wide latititude on many issues. the Doctrines of the faith are not included.
Some of them, yes they are. It is a travesty.
This is true. What did not come across is that his beliefs were consistent with Catholic faith.
No, just that he did not specify that the variant position was not his own, so it appeared that he agreed with the new agey stuff he was describing.
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Saintlucy
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Oh, be careful what you are saying there. “Chat him or her up” has a totally different meaning here and maybe in Ireland. It means to flirt with a member of the opposite sex - or maybe not these days- with a mind to, well, you know…
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Saintlucy
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Have you hit the nail on the head?
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Leeann
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Well…one man’s “Truth”…is another man’s “Deception”.
Hhhhmmm…sounds horrible for you guys. Hope you work it out.
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guanophore
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I would say that it is accurate. I don’t think it is very safe of me to do it.
It sure sounded that way.
I will become provoked when anyone claiming to be a priest sounds like they do not embrace Catholicism, no matter what the topic of the thread.
However, I do receive your correction in all charity, and will try to focus on the topic.
I have read the disturbing descriptions of people’s lack of participation in the Mass, and doing things like praying the Rosary during Divine Liturgy. This is a gross abuse, and I am glad that you are speaking from the pulpit to correct these things. I am sure, no matter what the readings of the day, it will be possible to use them for instruction about the current events.
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guanophore
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Please notice the phrase “some of them even seem to have been in error on this matter” which is the very thing Fr John is being accused of. Please also note the line “But these stray private opinions merely serve to show that theology is a progressive science” which persons on this thread are also not willing to admit. FrJohn was merely pointing out things also that were evolving in theology, is that wrong now to point those things out? I would like to know before you start going after my Protestant theology if you think that I am misquoting it.
Our understanding of God’s revelation is indeed a matter of progress and maturity. However, once the Church has spoken, as she has upon the Marian doctrines, the progress is complete. Evolution has reached it’s pinnacle, and the HS has revealed the Truth, by which we are bound.
If a Catholic thinks that it is not a problem to continue to speculate about the Truths that God has already revealed to the church, that is definitely a concern.
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guanophore
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The whole purpose of sanctification is to transfer attributes of the HS into us. In the East, we call it Theosis. It is being conformed daily into Christ.
This process of becoming that which He has already declared us to be does not detract from Him, but glorifies Him.
Mary’s soul “magnifies the Lord”. When we look at her, we see Him enlarged and more visible. This is God’s intention for all of us.
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guanophore
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Leann seems to have personal experience with some Mary worshippers. As she describes them, they are quite over the top, and she cannot tell that they are actually Christian, since Mary is so at the center of their lives. She believes they have made an idol out of her. It is one of the concerns that brought her to CAF.
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