Why is it wrong to love Mary, the Mother of God?

[E.E.N.S]

Well I’m protestant, and I love Mary. I don’t pray to her, though. I’ve asked her to pray for me, though. I talk to her, sometimes. I asked if she loved me. It felt good to have a relationship with Mary. It feels like I know a spiritual mother in the same way I know a Spiritual Father.

It appears by your own statements that you DO actually pray to Mary. I think you may be meaning to say that you don’t worship Mary, which is good. (Otherwise this is just semantics.)

 

[MrZetterlund]

It appears by your own statements that you DO actually pray to Mary. I think you may be meaning to say that you don’t worship Mary, which is good. (Otherwise this is just semantics.)

Well, to pray means “to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).” And I don’t pray to her, I ask her to pray for me. Which means to put in a petition to God.

 

[Nicea325]

You didn’t read what I wrote apparently, as I CLEARLY stated that I DO BELIEVE in the Immaculate Conception! What I was pointing out was that your argument was faulty, (that for Christ to be born sinless he had to be born from a sinless mother), and I said that this argument would then extend to Mary and her parents, etc., (for Mary to be born sinless, her parents would then have to be sinless…using your argument of course.)

The Church doesn’t use the argument you are positing, as it is NOT a NECESSARY condition for Mary to be conceived without sin.

Sorry,but I think you misunderstood me. Plus, my argument was not intended to say Mary’s parents would then have to be sinless.

In a nutshell,my argument is basically asking Fundmantalists why isn’t possible for Mary to have been born without original sin?

 

[MelanieAnne]

Speaking as a Daughter, a Sister, and a Mother, I can truly say that if you want to antagonize someone, attack their Daughter, their Sister or (even worse!) their Mother. I’ve been the Daughter/Sister/Mother in various situations and I can tell you how other family members react when I am under attack. It’s not positive. It’s not a good idea to “go there”.

Alternatively, if you want to appeal to someone who has a Daughter/Sister/Mother, one way is to channel your appeal through that person. In the case of Jesus, He doesn’t have a Daughter or a Sister, but He does have a Mother. Loving Mary, who agreed with the request of the Angel sent from God who contacted her to give us Jesus, and appealing to her is simply that ~ an appeal to Jesus through Mary. Is that the only way to appeal to Jesus? No. But it is a way.

When we pray to Mary to intercede for us, we honor her as the Mother of Jesus and we ask for her intercession, we’re asking her to be a go-between between us and God, we’re not worshipping her. As such, it is no different than asking a friend for their prayers. Most people have no trouble asking for the prayers of their friends, but some stop short of asking Mary for her prayers. WHY? If we can ask friends for prayers, then we can just as easily ask Mary for her prayers. No one is REQUIRED to go this way, but if they choose this way, they can. So what’s the big deal?

When you look at this situation in a simple, practical way, the opposition to Mary makes no sense, at least not to me. We should, at least, be grateful she said “Yes” to the Incarnation, yet many do not even seem to honor her for THAT! Seems kinda nuts to me!

 

[E.E.N.S]

Well, to pray means "to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship)." And I don’t pray to her, I ask her to pray for me. Which means to put in a petition to God.

Yes.

Sorry,but I think you misunderstood me. Plus, my argument was not intended to say Mary’s parents would then have to be sinless.

In a nutshell,my argument is basically asking Fundmantalists why isn’t possible for Mary to have been born without original sin?

No, I didn’t misunderstand you at all. I know you didn’t mean to say that Mary’s parents would then have to be sinless - THAT’S MY POINT! Fundamentalists will use that argument against you when you say, “How could Jesus (SINLESS) come from Mary (SINNER)?” They will turn and say, “How could Mary (SINLESS) come from Anne & Joachim (SINNERS)?” THAT’S why the argument you used is faulty. If you listen to the Catholic Answers apologists (Akin, Staples, etc.), they will say the same thing.

To clarify, I COMPLETELY AGREE that Mary was conceived without sin, BUT I disagree with your argument that Mary HAD to be born sinless so that Christ could be born sinless.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Yes.

No, I didn’t misunderstand you at all. I know you didn’t mean to say that Mary’s parents would then have to be sinless - THAT’S MY POINT! Fundamentalists will use that argument against you when you say, “How could Jesus (SINLESS) come from Mary (SINNER)?” They will turn and say, “How could Mary (SINLESS) come from Anne & Joachim (SINNERS)?” THAT’S why the argument you used is faulty. If you listen to the Catholic Answers apologists (Akin, Staples, etc.), they will say the same thing.

To clarify, I COMPLETELY AGREE that Mary was conceived without sin, BUT I disagree with your argument that Mary HAD to be born sinless so that Christ could be born sinless.

When you consider that Jesus is God, the Immaculate Conception makes complete sense. God cannot inhabit an unholy place. As such, even at the Incarnation, Jesus would have to inhabit a holy place.

Mary was sinless because God made her that way, to be a holy vessel, a holy place for the Incarnation to take place. To deny Mary’s status is, essentially, to deny the divinity of Jesus.

 

[E.E.N.S]

When you consider that Jesus is God, the Immaculate Conception makes complete sense. God cannot inhabit an unholy place. As such, even at the Incarnation, Jesus would have to inhabit a holy place.

Mary was sinless because God made her that way, to be a holy vessel, a holy place for the Incarnation to take place. To deny Mary’s status is, essentially, to deny the divinity of Jesus.

I agree with everything you said, except for your claim that Jesus CANNOT inhabit an unholy place. He inhabited Earth, which is most certainly filled with sin.

I agree that Mary was sinless since the moment of her conception, (which should be 100% clear in ALL of my posts.)

The argument that Nicea gave, however, is a faulty argument. Let’s play it out:

Nicea: “Explain to me why God would allow a SINNER to conceive His SINLESS Son?”

Fundamentalist: “Explain to me why God would allow a SINNER to conceive His SINLESS Mother?”

It was not necessary for Mary to be conceived sinless so that Jesus could be. If the argument is valid for the first statement, then it must also be valid for the second statement, (which we as Catholics do NOT believe), therefore it is a faulty argument for the Immaculate Conception. It was the will of God that Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin, yes, but it was FITTING, not NECESSARY.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I agree with everything you said, except for your claim that Jesus CANNOT inhabit an unholy place. He inhabited Earth, which is most certainly filled with sin.

I agree that Mary was sinless since the moment of her conception, (which should be 100% clear in ALL of my posts.)

The argument that Nicea gave, however, is a faulty argument. Let’s play it out:

Nicea: “Explain to me why God would allow a SINNER to conceive His SINLESS Son?”

Fundamentalist: “Explain to me why God would allow a SINNER to conceive His SINLESS Mother?”

It was not necessary for Mary to be conceived sinless so that Jesus could be. If the argument is valid for the first statement, then it must also be valid for the second statement, (which we as Catholics do NOT believe), therefore it is a faulty argument for the Immaculate Conception. It was the will of God that Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin, yes, but it was FITTING, not NECESSARY.

Well, yes, of course you are right. Once Jesus was born, then He had to inhabit the earth, which was not entirely holy. I was not actually addressing the circumstances of the rest of the earthly life of Jesus, simply the time that he was in Mary’s womb. Since she was without sin, He inhabited a holy place at that time.

After that, I guess you could say, in modern terms, He was “on His own”. And He did spectacularly well, didn’t He?

 

[E.E.N.S]

Well, yes, of course you are right. Once Jesus was born, then He had to inhabit the earth, which was not entirely holy. I was not actually addressing the circumstances of the rest of the earthly life of Jesus, simply the time that he was in Mary’s womb. Since she was without sin, He inhabited a holy place at that time.

After that, I guess you could say, in modern terms, He was “on His own”. And He did spectacularly well, didn’t He?

Yes, but perhaps I missed your point then, as it seemed to me that you were trying to somewhat bolster Nicea’s idea that it was necessary for Mary to be sinless to be able to bear sinless fruit (Jesus). No?

 

[MelanieAnne]

Yes, but perhaps I missed your point then, as it seemed to me that you were trying to somewhat bolster Nicea’s idea that it was necessary for Mary to be sinless to be able to bear sinless fruit (Jesus). No?

I wasn’t attempting to bolster anyone’s argument. Did I reference anyone else? No, I did not.

I was merely saying that, at least during the period of time when Jesus (God) inhabited Mary’s womb, it would have been completely logical to expect that a holy place would have been prepared for that to occur. Which would explain why God made Mary sinless. Part of the beauty of the Immaculate Conception is that it makes perfect sense to anyone who cares to actually pay attention to the facts.

Once Jesus was born into the world, of course it could not be expected that He could continue to inhabit a holy place. My point was that, at least as long as possible, it is natural and logical to expect God to inhabit a holy place. When that becomes impossible, due to circumstances, that requirement must necessarily give way to reality. And we need to take responsibility for that. It was not God who made the earth an unholy place, we did that.

 

[E.E.N.S]

I wasn’t attempting to bolster anyone’s argument. Did I reference anyone else? No, I did not.

I was merely saying that, at least during the period of time when Jesus (God) inhabited Mary’s womb, it would have been completely logical to expect that a holy place would have been prepared for that to occur. Which would explain why God made Mary sinless. Part of the beauty of the Immaculate Conception is that it makes perfect sense to anyone who cares to actually pay attention to the facts.

Once Jesus was born into the world, of course it could not be expected that He could continue to inhabit a holy place. My point was that, at least as long as possible, it is natural and logical to expect God to inhabit a holy place. When that becomes impossible, due to circumstances, that requirement must necessarily give way to reality. And we need to take responsibility for that. It was not God who made the earth an unholy place, we did that.

And I agree. I was merely pointing the error in Nicea’s particular argument that it was necessary, and I was unsure of the point of you responding to my post the way you did unless you agreed with Nicea that it was indeed necessary.

 

[Bran_Stark]

Holy Mary, MOTHER OF GOD, pray for us sinners!
How could God create an imperfect being to bear His only Son? Even simple logic demands that the answer is a resounding NO.

Mary certainly is holy and the mother of God, and we need all the prayers we can get, sinners that we are, so you’ll find no disputation in me about that. But how could have God made her imperfect? Well, I suppose in the same way that He created an imperfect being to announce the coming of His Son, an imperfect man to be His foster father, imperfect apostles to spread His gospel, and imperfect Christians who try to follow it today.

Now to the question: is it wrong to love Mary? I say: of course not! All of God’s fallen creatures should be loved, from the purest saint to the vilest sinner. I think the Blessed Mother of Our Lord is a lot closer to the former than the latter, but that does not make her without stain.

 

[Nicea325]

Yes.

No, I didn’t misunderstand you at all. I know you didn’t mean to say that Mary’s parents would then have to be sinless - THAT’S MY POINT! Fundamentalists will use that argument against you when you say, “How could Jesus (SINLESS) come from Mary (SINNER)?” They will turn and say, “How could Mary (SINLESS) come from Anne & Joachim (SINNERS)?” THAT’S why the argument you used is faulty. If you listen to the Catholic Answers apologists (Akin, Staples, etc.), they will say the same thing.

To clarify, I COMPLETELY AGREE that Mary was conceived without sin, BUT I disagree with your argument that Mary HAD to be born sinless so that Christ could be born sinless.

My question is why would God want a defiled vessel to conceive perfection? If God is perfect and one must be perfect to be in heaven,then why have a defiled vessel conceive perfection?

 

[Nicea325]

When you consider that Jesus is God, the Immaculate Conception makes complete sense. God cannot inhabit an unholy place. As such, even at the Incarnation, Jesus would have to inhabit a holy place.

Mary was sinless because God made her that way, to be a holy vessel, a holy place for the Incarnation to take place. To deny Mary’s status is, essentially, to deny the divinity of Jesus.

Exactly! That is my whole point. God had already prepared Mary by not allowing original sin to stain her soul through His graces. Evidently God did want a sinless vessel.

 

[JonNC]

=Jimmy B;6659791]Below (post# 2) is a letter / prayer that I wrote for Mary a while back. All of my comments in this letter are Biblically based. If you are not a Catholic and you do not love Mary, please explain why you don’t love Mary? Where is it written in the Bible that you cannot love Mary?

Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with you.
Blessed are you among women,
and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Amen

Every Christian should love the Holy Theotokos, not only because she willingly obedient to the will of God and brought our savior into the world, but also because she is, as Luther said, the most noble gem in all of Christianity, except Christ Himself. She shows us how to live the Godly life, and with the company of the saints, continues to pray for the Church Militant. I pray God listens to and answers her prayers.

Jon

 

[barnesms]

I am not sure that there is anything problematic about loving or not loving Mary. Though she was a virgin and chosen by God to bear the Son of God, any additional theology about her occurred after the time of Jesus Christ.

I believe there is only one intermediary between man and God the Father and that is his Son, Jesus. The concept of praying to righteous individuals is foreign to me, but I think I can appreciate why some disciples do so. I pray to God the Father; there is never any confusion about to whom I am speaking. I pray in the name of His Son, Jesus as my Redeemer, my Savior, and my intermediary with the Father.

If others choose to pray to Saints or Mary I see no harm unless it becomes an exclusive action. Our relationship with God should be first and foremost through the Son and no one else.

 

[E.E.N.S]

My question is why would God want a defiled vessel to conceive perfection? If God is perfect and one must be perfect to be in heaven,then why have a defiled vessel conceive perfection?

Exactly! That is my whole point. God had already prepared Mary by not allowing original sin to stain her soul through His graces. Evidently God did want a sinless vessel.

Yes, I agree with the underlined part, and hopefully by now you realize that I am with you on this…right? I DO believe in the Immaculate Conception! (If you were actually READING what I have been typing over, and over, and over, you would have seen this by now.)

I am just saying, (as several of the Catholic Answers apologists have said before), that your argument as to WHY she was conceived without sin is NOT a good argument.

 

[Nicea325]

Yes, I agree with the underlined part, and hopefully by now you realize that I am with you on this…right? I DO believe in the Immaculate Conception! (If you were actually READING what I have been typing over, and over, and over, you would have seen this by now.)

I am just saying, (as several of the Catholic Answers apologists have said before), that your argument as to WHY she was conceived without sin is NOT a good argument.

BTW: Perhaps my argument was not presented in the proper way,hence the misunderstandings.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with you.

Blessed are you among women,
and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. Amen

Every Christian should love the Holy Theotokos, not only because she willingly obedient to the will of God and brought our savior into the world, but also because she is, as Luther said, the most noble gem in all of Christianity, except Christ Himself. She shows us how to live the Godly life, and with the company of the saints, continues to pray for the Church Militant. I pray God listens to and answers her prayers.

Jon

See, Jon is proof that you don’t have be a Catholic to “Love Mary”…There are a lot of non-Catholic Christians that “love Mary”… Why is it Ok, to say that you, “Love your brother”, or that you need to, “love one another” but when it comes to Mary, it’s… “Well…” “but, …”, “you known…”

Come on people, there is not problem in “loving Mary”, the Mother of God… No, explanation needed…

What is the big deal?

Wasn’t She also an observant disciple of Christ?

Wasn’t she there from the beginning of His life, until the end…Christ on the Cross.

Didn’t she say, "Let your will be done unto me?

Wasn’t she there in the ’ Upper Room" when the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles?

Isn’t she the only one, besides the other Mary and St. John not to abandon our Lord, when he was crucified?

What is wrong with you people?

It’s perfectly fine, as a Christian for you to love Mary. If your denomination has a problem with this, then I suggest that you read the Gospels.

Your thoughts?

 

[Jimmy_B]

You may love mary if you wish but mary was not perfect. She was a sinner like the rest of us who needed salvation.

Where is that in the Bible, where a single sin is attributed to Mary, the vessel in which our Lord entered the world?