Why is it wrong to love Mary, the Mother of God?

[Gloria1]

Jesus is fully Human and fully Divine. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus Christ is God and that makes Mary the mother of God. Jesus is “Christ” and that makes Mary Christ-bearer or “Christokos”. However, Jesus isn’t just any “Christ” Jesus is “God-Man”. Jesus is Christ and He is God and that makes Mary God-bearer or “Theotokos”. Mary is divine because she isn’t just a Christ-bearer but also God-bearer. If Mary is Divine then there is nothing wrong in loving Mary and Praying to Mary.

 

[Cathryn]

Jesus is fully Human and fully Divine. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Jesus Christ is God and that makes Mary the mother of God. Jesus is “Christ” and that makes Mary Christ-bearer or “Christokos”. However, Jesus isn’t just any “Christ” Jesus is “God-Man”. Jesus is Christ and He is God and that makes Mary God-bearer or “Theotokos”. Mary is divine because she isn’t just a Christ-bearer but also God-bearer. If Mary is Divine then there is nothing wrong in loving Mary and Praying to Mary.

Mary is not divine, she is human. But there is nothing wrong with loving her and asking her to pray for us.

 

[BryanM27]

Didn’t John Paul II make the process for canonization much easier? I have always heard the 100 year thing but I believe I heard on EWTN that the process is now easier. IS this true?

Honestly, I don’t know. I’ve only heard the 100 years as being the standard norm, with room for exceptions if the evidence was substantial enough.

Anybody else have the answer to this?

 

[Padrej]

Mary is not divine, she is human. But there is nothing wrong with loving her and asking her to pray for us.

I usually explain Praying to Mary and other saints like this. The book of Revelation says that the saints continually intercede for us. Jesus also said we serve a God of the living not of the dead. So if we ask a person to pray for us here on earth, it should be no different to ask one already in heaven. I also point out that my grandmother’s prayers did not cease being answered at the point of her death but are still being answered.

 

[FrJohnB]

Honestly, I don’t know. I’ve only heard the 100 years as being the standard norm, with room for exceptions if the evidence was substantial enough.

Anybody else have the answer to this?

John Paul II did make seeping changes to the process for making a person a saint (canonization). He did so in 1983.
here is a link that may help to explain this.
catholic.org/saints/faq.php

 

[BryanM27]

John Paul II did make seeping changes to the process for making a person a saint (canonization). He did so in 1983.
here is a link that may help to explain this.
catholic.org/saints/faq.php

Thank you, FrJohn. That was most helpful indeed.

 

[Cinette]

I would like to try and stab at your “Protestant” history question. I think that there is not really one date certain that you could point to that you could say “devotion to Mary stopped HERE.” It was more of a progression. Calvin may have started out as a lover of Mary but he and his followers did not. By the time of the production of the Geneva Bible the annotations in it were strongly Anti-Catholic because the persecution from the Catholic Church against them was great. So you might say that it was more of a reactionary thing with Protestants to stay away from anything that smacked of Catholicism.
With Luther, his Catholic roots died harder than Calvin. He tried to keep the devotion alive amongst his followers but as more and more time has gone by the Lutheran church as it is today is not the same as it was in the beginning. The same with the Methodists. John Wesley would not recognize his church today as it no longer stresses the almost monk like holiness in its believers as it did in the beginning. He was trying to reform the Church of England to restore the observances of the feasts and fasts and his followers got known by their “methods” hence the name that stuck. Did he reform the CofE? Hardly, he did get them to maybe rethink in some areas.
This is why I say there is no real date that you can pin down because it is rather like a car going downhill with the tires locked to try and stop it. Pieces of the tire are going to be burned into the asphalt and be no longer part of the tire.
Now the good news is there are little seeds within Protestantism that still have a love of Mary and these seeds are growing slowly. Every time I sing the hymn “Faith of our Fathers” which the Protestants love; I think back in my mind that it was originally a Catholic hymn and we omit one verse. The verse is as follows.
Faith of our fathers, Mary’s prayers
Shall win our country back to Thee;
And through the truth that comes from God,
England shall then indeed be free.

I would be interested to know if any English Catholics still sing that verse. From what I understand it has not appeared in a Catholic hymnal since 1950.
Of course there was an Irish version of the 3rd verse too
Faith of Our Fathers, Mary’s prayers
Will keep our country true to thee.
And through the truth that comes from God
Ireland shall then indeed be free.

*I was looking at your profile Senhor Padre J and I also like the saying by Padre Pio about speaking to God from your heart. Yes sometimes when I receive the Eucharist I have no words and my heart swells with love. It is curious that this morning at Mass I was praying for others in need and my heart swelled with heaviness and yet there was hope. I know that only through prayer can we find hope.

Nice to know you.
Cinette*

 

[Cinette]

Understandably this is your perspective from a Catholic’s point of view, from their teachings/etc…it is not mine however.

*Dear LeeAnn - Yes it is from a Catholic perspective and teaching but it makes sense. I always feel that Faith is not a matter of opinion. I believe that Jesus founded the Church and gave certain instructions and guidance and it is not for us to say “Hmm no this does not suit me - it is not my perspective”. There are times when we need to obey. *

…

I can only speak for myself…and what I’ve already stated with regards to the Marian teachings that the Catholic church embraces and the result that this has had on my friends.

**Again I can only state that the Catholic Church’s teachings do not embrace all that which certain individuals claim. Regarding Medjugorje I do believe some people might have got certain benefits but I once attended a prayer meeting with Mass at a Croatian Church and one of the “seers” was there and I was not convinced. I left there with great disappointment. I did not believe. I have also been on a pilgrimage where people claimed they saw certain signs and I said no I did not see the signs and I am sorry but I do not believe. I might have been wrong but I allow myself to be guided by the Church. I trust the Church.

Sometimes the Church can be harsh - look at how Padre Pio was “disciplined” for years - so unfairly - yet he accepted the authority and obeyed. Sometimes it is necessary to humbly accept an unjust ruling. It is a trial. Rather that than to go for all and anything some people say. I believe the evil one can masquerade as an angel and if one is not discerning one can fall into a trap.

I believe in miracles but they must be authenticated. I have experienced little miracles and funny enough my husband who was atheist at the time, recognised these little miracles and was overwhelmed. They are personal miracles but they are real. They did make him sit up and take note though and I am sure that was God’s intention.

Love
Cinette**

 

[Cinette]

I usually explain Praying to Mary and other saints like this. The book of Revelation says that the saints continually intercede for us. Jesus also said we serve a God of the living not of the dead. So if we ask a person to pray for us here on earth, it should be no different to ask one already in heaven. I also point out that my grandmother’s prayers did not cease being answered at the point of her death but are still being answered.

*Yes!**The supernatural can also make sense as this does.

Thank you
Cinette*

 

[benidict]

I would like to try and stab at your “Protestant” history question. I think that there is not really one date certain that you could point to that you could say “devotion to Mary stopped HERE.” It was more of a progression. Calvin may have started out as a lover of Mary but he and his followers did not. By the time of the production of the Geneva Bible the annotations in it were strongly Anti-Catholic because the persecution from the Catholic Church against them was great. So you might say that it was more of a reactionary thing with Protestants to stay away from anything that smacked of Catholicism.
With Luther, his Catholic roots died harder than Calvin. He tried to keep the devotion alive amongst his followers but as more and more time has gone by the Lutheran church as it is today is not the same as it was in the beginning. The same with the Methodists. John Wesley would not recognize his church today as it no longer stresses the almost monk like holiness in its believers as it did in the beginning. He was trying to reform the Church of England to restore the observances of the feasts and fasts and his followers got known by their “methods” hence the name that stuck. Did he reform the CofE? Hardly, he did get them to maybe rethink in some areas.
This is why I say there is no real date that you can pin down because it is rather like a car going downhill with the tires locked to try and stop it. Pieces of the tire are going to be burned into the asphalt and be no longer part of the tire.
Now the good news is there are little seeds within Protestantism that still have a love of Mary and these seeds are growing slowly. Every time I sing the hymn “Faith of our Fathers” which the Protestants love; I think back in my mind that it was originally a Catholic hymn and we omit one verse. The verse is as follows.
Faith of our fathers, Mary’s prayers
Shall win our country back to Thee;
And through the truth that comes from God,
England shall then indeed be free.

I would be interested to know if any English Catholics still sing that verse. From what I understand it has not appeared in a Catholic hymnal since 1950.
Of course there was an Irish version of the 3rd verse too
Faith of Our Fathers, Mary’s prayers
Will keep our country true to thee.
And through the truth that comes from God
Ireland shall then indeed be free.

thank you Father. this would make sense. its just too bad in their dislike for anything Catholic, they had to in essense throw out the Blessed Mother. i believe if more people embrace Her, you would see better marriages, better Churches, reguardless of denomination. and more respect towards women all around. Peace

 

[prodigalson12]

thank you Father. this would make sense. its just too bad in their dislike for anything Catholic, they had to in essense throw out the Blessed Mother. i believe if more people embrace Her, you would see better marriages, better Churches, reguardless of denomination. and more respect towards women all around. Peace

I know what you are saying, we are simply telling them about Mary, like embracing and understanding of her is some how linked to the the elite of our Faith, and that you cannot have Mary in your life and not become Catholic. The problem these days, protestants are missing big chunks that should be included within their own faith and practices, entirely because they are worried about some similarities to the Catholic church by doing so. When I bring up Mary, often there is a state of almost horror in their eyes, like I’m introducing some foriegn entity to the table, without Mary, there is not Jesus, and yet they don’t make that connection. Why did she play such a pivital roll in scripture itself, if it was not for a good reason?

The modern protestant faith is not at all the original one, it has morphed into something entirely different, and we try to discuss how things were back in the day between the two sides, only for it to fall upon deaf ears, for we are comparing a past they no longer themselves embrace and it’s supposed to be what they represent. I feel an overhaul in their own denominational names themselves is in dire need, for they no longer are at all, what was originally formed, so should no longer claim those denominations any more. This would clearly put better definition as to who we are addressing here, it would also help them more clearly define what they themselves actually believe.

That tangent all to the side, with my own personal life, without Mary being in it, even though most of the time I wasn’t aware she was, I would not be living on this earth any more, that itself is testament to how much she cares for me, and now that I’m aware, I’m forever grateful to her for it.

 

[Leeann]

From Leeann:

Because you ‘think’ your friends are paying more 'attention " to Mary than Christ does not make it so.

I understand what you are saying Tantum….but in this

 

[Leeann]

*Well then???!!!

Have you seen a Pope honouring Mary at Medugorja?? Why would he if he tells us to be careful and not to go there??!!

Cinette*

Was there any claim of a Pope honouring Mary at Medugora?

My response was in regards to your posting about the ‘false’ visions that haven’t been approved yet by the CC – and that it takes some time….and by the fruits you will know them…and I mentioned that the Medugorja one seems to be the one that tipped one of my friends over into worship (being the ‘fruit’) of Mary.

 

[Leeann]

Someone here talked about Catholics going overboard in **crowning Mary and ** carrying her statue around.

Hello Cathryn - that ‘someone’ would be me.

These same Catholics **probably took the Blessed Sacrament in procession through their neighborhood **sharing their faith yesterday on the Feast of Corpus Christi. Here is the hymns we sang in procession with the Blessed Sacrament to Jesus Christ:

Sing, my tongue,
The mystery of the glorious body,
And of the precious Blood,
Shed to save the world,
By the King of the nations,
The fruit of a noble womb.

Down in adoration falling,
Lo! the sacred Host we hail,
Lo! o’er ancient forms departing
Newer rites of grace prevail;
Faith for all defects supplying,
Where the feeble senses fail.

This hymn is sung during the “May Crowning” – the crowning of a statue of Mary in May.

Bring flow’rs of the fairest,
Bring flow’rs of the rarest,
From garden and woodland
And hillside and vale;
Our full hearts are swelling,
Our Glad voices telling
The praise of the loveliest
Rose of the vale.

O Mary! we crown thee with blossoms today,
Queen of the Angels, Queen of the May,
O Mary! we crown thee with blossoms today,
Queen of the Angels, Queen of the May.

Our voices ascending,
In harmony blending,
Oh! Thus may our hearts turn
Dear Mother, to thee;
Oh! Thus shall we prove thee
How truly we love thee,
How dark without Mary
Life’s journey would be.

O Virgin most tender,
Our homage we render,
Thy love and protection,
Sweet Mother, to win;
In danger defend us,
In sorrow befriend us,
And shield our hearts
From contagion and sin.
Of Mothers the dearest,
Oh, wilt thou be nearest,
When life with temptation
Is darkly replete?
Forsake us, O never!
Our hearts be they ever
As Pure as the lilies
We lay at thy feet.

Very similar honour for them both, however, as you say, Mary is a creature and Jesus is ABOVE all creation……however the way your ‘devotions to Mary’ are actually carried out…may be one reason there are those that would think it may be a bit “overboard” to honour Mary in this way…the same way that the Lord ABOVE all creation is honoured.

It is interesting to note also, that in the hymn for JESUS - mention of Mary is made (noble womb)…however in Mary’s hymn…it’s ALL about her.

 

[Cinette]

…

Then there’s the obvious things not so close to home - but when I see pictures of crowned statues of her being paraded around with people bowing and praying…(including Popes)…it saddens me…I can’t imagine Mary, the mother of our Lord wanting all that attention for herself.

Hope that helps.

*I asked you about your friends’ experience at Medjugorje and you referred me to #332 and here you mentioned “including Popes”…

Cinette*

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Guanophore,

Those were excellent response to Rev Kev…

The oen thing that I have never quite fathomed is why this protestant insistance about Christ having, “…brothers and sisters…” when there was no appropriate Aramic word for cousin, when the early Church and ECF all acknowledged Mary’s perpetual virginity and that even Luther acknowledged this point. What possible benefit is there in claiming just the opposite (that Christ had “brothers and sisters”) since the majority of protestant groups acknowledge that it was the “…power of the Most High will overshadow you…”?

Enjoy reading your posts.

God bless

Tom

I agree. But, since we know that she took a vow of perpetual virginity, this sheds light on the meaning of the verse.

C’mom rev! She was betrothed! Why would she NOT expect to have relations with her husband?

What would make her think that she would not bear a son after the manner of all women?

No, it is like telling a young woman who is engaged and looking forward to marriage.

That is exactly what she meant.

We understand that she meant this because we already know she remained a virgin all her life.

Except that he had no such intent. He received her vow for perpetual virginity, and received her for safekeeping, not for sexual relations. Virgins who reached the marriagable age were placed in custody of a male relative, or a husband. Legally they had no rights. Only prostitutes were women that were not in the custody of a man.

No, rev kev. There was no such intent. You are speculating, because you don’t want to receive the teaching that was handed on to us by the Apostles.

 

[Cinette]

Hello Cathryn - that ‘someone’ would be me.

This hymn is sung during the “May Crowning” – the crowning of a statue of Mary in May.

Bring flow’rs of the fairest,
Bring flow’rs of the rarest,
From garden and woodland
And hillside and vale;
Our full hearts are swelling,
Our Glad voices telling
The praise of the loveliest
Rose of the vale.

O Mary! we crown thee with blossoms today,
Queen of the Angels, Queen of the May,
O Mary! we crown thee with blossoms today,
Queen of the Angels, Queen of the May.

Our voices ascending,
In harmony blending,
Oh! Thus may our hearts turn
Dear Mother, to thee;
Oh! Thus shall we prove thee
How truly we love thee,
How dark without Mary
Life’s journey would be.

O Virgin most tender,
Our homage we render,
Thy love and protection,
Sweet Mother, to win;
In danger defend us,
In sorrow befriend us,
And shield our hearts
From contagion and sin.
Of Mothers the dearest,
Oh, wilt thou be nearest,
When life with temptation
Is darkly replete?
Forsake us, O never!
Our hearts be they ever
As Pure as the lilies
We lay at thy feet.

Very similar honour for them both, however, as you say, Mary is a creature and Jesus is ABOVE all creation……however the way your ‘devotions to Mary’ are actually carried out…may be one reason there are those that would think it may be a bit “overboard” to honour Mary in this way…the same way that the Lord ABOVE all creation is honoured.

It is interesting to note also, that in the hymn for JESUS - mention of Mary is made (noble womb)…however in Mary’s hymn…it’s ALL about her.

I don’t think that the hymns can be categorised as “worship”. It is clear we love Mary and we appreciate her and I am sure Jesus would not object!

You do have a problem with that Leeann I know but we don’t.

Cheers
Cinette

 

[Leeann]

**Cinnette:**Regarding Medjugorje I do believe some people might have got certain benefits but I once attended a prayer meeting with Mass at a Croatian Church and one of the “seers” was there and I was not convinced. I left there with great disappointment. I did not believe. I have also been on a pilgrimage where people claimed they saw certain signs and I said no I did not see the signs and I am sorry but I do not believe. I might have been wrong but I allow myself to be guided by the Church. I trust the Church.

Yes…it’s a pity the CC can’t speed up their “authentication” process a bit….millions of Catholics have “fallen into a trap” as you say, with un-authenticated visions. Where is the discernment in leadership….or is this left to each individual Catholic?

**Cinette: **I believe in miracles but they must be authenticated. I have experienced little miracles and funny enough my husband who was atheist at the time, recognised these little miracles and was overwhelmed. They are personal miracles but they are real. They did make him sit up and take note though and I am sure that was God’s intention.

Not to get too personal – but were these little personal miracles authenticated by the Church?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Leeann,

I have been reading a number of your posts with real interest - and your responses to Cinette and Guanophore. Let me make an observation that is really a quote from an old teacher of mine: “Anecdote is the not the singular of data.”

The fact that a friend of your had a negative experience does not necessarily mean that this experience is universally negative. While what happened to your friend is unfortunate, would it not be the same if you knew someone who was involved in a motor vehicle accident and then concluded that cars were bad?

A certain amount of care must be taken when working with limited information. A sample size of 1 - especially if it is your own, may seem very convincing, but, making realistic decisions based on an examination of all the evidence is what is required. Admittedly, this takes both time and effort - but, to do less quickly leads people to make poor choices.

Medjugorje is an example of private or popular devotion that the Catholic Church has not sanctioned. Converesly, your friend could travel to Lourdes, or Fatama or anywhere else where the Church has declared that Mary’s appirations are genuine and compare her experiences with what she felt or sensed in Medjugorje. Of course, this brings up another issue - just how much into ‘feelings’ are we going to be when the matter under consideration is really a matter of Faith and beyond feelings?

You claim to be a “Believer”. Do you believe Mary is the Mother of God? This is really not a silly question - there are many groups out there that think the Catholic Church has elevated Mary to ‘goddess’ status. Mary is 100% human. Mary received a very special Grace from God that at the moment of her? This honor is not in the highest form of worship we owe to God as God, but rather as a special (but lesser) reverence we show to His Mother - the Mother that Christ gave to all of us on the Cross (John 19:26-27).

God bless

Tom

Medjugorje was the “tipping point” for one my friends - the “fruit” is worship of Mary.

 

[Leeann]

*I asked you about your friends’ experience at Medjugorje and you referred me to #332 and here you mentioned “including Popes”…

Cinette*

I was responding to your Post #371 - that wasn’t a request about Medjugorje.