Why is it wrong to love Mary, the Mother of God?

[Cinette]

Yes…it’s a pity the CC can’t speed up their “authentication” process a bit….millions of Catholics have “fallen into a trap” as you say, with un-authenticated visions. Where is the discernment in leadership….or is this left to each individual Catholic?

*You obviously do not understand the process. Insofar as those who automatically jump and believe all claims that is their affair. I am more cautious and I would be prepared to wait. The discernment in leadership is precisely that of caution and prayer as well as medical tests and x-rays and whatever is necessary to verify a case as a miracle. In regard to Lourdes which occurred 150 years ago there have only been 66 declared miracles by the Church since then. I am positive there have been many more miracles that were not reported. I would not report a miracle unless I was persuaded to. There are also healing of relationships and disturbances within people - psycological problems and the like. *

Not to get too personal – but were these little personal miracles authenticated by the Church?

*Why would I do that? It would be ridiculous! These are personal things which opened my husband’s heart and mind to the Church. My husband was a revolutionary and communist sympathiser and to see the transformation in him was indeed a miracle - it took many years but today he is a daily communicant at Mass. There were so many “coincidences” that they could only be miraculous. *

*Everybody loves miracles and many hope for miracles all the time. I am no exception. However, I consider all of creation to be a miracle - nature and humans, we are all miracles - we see, hear, think, walk, reason, create, we have many talents. All these things are fascinating and miraculous. I don’t need to see someone with one leg grow a limb but if that happened I would be as excited as anyone

Cinette*

 

[Leeann]

I don’t think that the hymns can be categorised as “worship”. It is clear we love Mary and we appreciate her and I am sure Jesus would not object!

You do have a problem with that Leeann I know but we don’t.

Cheers
Cinette

Cinette:

I did not say that hymns could be categorised as “worship”…I drew a comparison in the way you honour Mary (the creature) and Jesus and asked if you could understand why some may see this form of honouring Mary with the statue…the procession…the hymn - in comparison to the way they do the same for Jesus in the Eucharist procession…the hymn…as if they were the “SAME”…divine.

 

[Cinette]

Cinette:

I did not say that hymns could be categorised as “worship”…I drew a comparison in the way you honour Mary (the creature) and Jesus and asked if you could understand why some may see this form of honouring Mary with the statue…the procession…the hymn - in comparison to the way they do the same for Jesus in the Eucharist procession…the hymn…as if they were the “SAME”…divine.

*It has been years since I have taken part in a procession. I am going to make a point of being part of a procession next time they announce one. I think it is a wonderful expression of Faith.

I do not make a comparison between Mary and Jesus. I confess that I speak to Jesus more and sometimes I speak to Mary also although we pray the Rosary every day I have often felt that I have neglected Mary a little if I do not speak to her directly. Although we pray a lot of Hail Marys in the rosary we are meditating on Jesus’ life, death and resurrection.

There is a Lebanese lady who comes to Mass with us every day and she always has a rosary wrapped around her fingers of one hand. The Lebanese Catholics (Maronites) have a special devotion to Mary which I love. Still I do not carry a rosary the way she does. Their manifestations are different from mine and I do not censure them for it. Last time I attended Mass at a Maronite Church I was so impressed with a little ceremony I happened upon in a little shrine next to the Church. A young couple and their parents and some friends were in attendance and the couple got engaged before the priest and made certain promises to each other. There were special prayers. In fact it was so beautiful that I told the priest that I thought it should be encouraged in front of the whole parish.

I know that there are Protestants who love Mary too and who pray the rosary. There are many Protestants who have “a problem” with Mary. Many converts to the Church struggled at first but eventually came to love Mary as we do. Some have written awesome books about her.

Ave Maria, gracia plena …:harp:

Cinette *

 

[Leeann]

Hi, Leeann,

I have been reading a number of your posts with real interest - and your responses to Cinette and Guanophore. Let me make an observation that is really a quote from an old teacher of mine: “Anecdote is the not the singular of data.”

The fact that a friend of your had a negative experience does not necessarily mean that this experience is universally negative. While what happened to your friend is unfortunate, would it not be the same if you knew someone who was involved in a motor vehicle accident and then concluded that cars were bad?

A certain amount of care must be taken when working with limited information. A sample size of 1 - especially if it is your own, may seem very convincing, but, making realistic decisions based on an examination of all the evidence is what is required. Admittedly, this takes both time and effort - but, to do less quickly leads people to make poor choices.

I’ll interject here Tom…as I feel you have posted this with sincere concern…and I thank you for that, however, I will point you to the highlighted sentences if your last paragraph above…and add a “quote” of my own here:

*“Presumption, based on limited information, also leads people to post advice prematurely”. *

Medjugorje is an example of private or popular devotion that the Catholic Church has not sanctioned. Converesly, your friend could travel to Lourdes, or Fatama or anywhere else where the Church has declared that Mary’s appirations are genuine and compare her experiences with what she felt or sensed in Medjugorje. Of course, this brings up another issue - just how much into ‘feelings’ are we going to be when the matter under consideration is really a matter of Faith and beyond feelings?

I’ve never had a problem with “Mary Mother of God” - as I realize the reason for this having to be clarified with the heresies that were floating around at the time and it was to clarify JESUS’ divinity…but I dont believe in everything you’ve posted after that.

 

[Leeann]

*Why would I do that? It would be ridiculous! These are personal things which opened my husband’s heart and mind to the Church. My husband was a revolutionary and communist sympathiser and to see the transformation in him was indeed a miracle - it took many years but today he is a daily communicant at Mass. There were so many “coincidences” that they could only be miraculous. *

*Everybody loves miracles and many hope for miracles all the time. I am no exception. However, I consider all of creation to be a miracle - nature and humans, we are all miracles - we see, hear, think, walk, reason, create, we have many talents. All these things are fascinating and miraculous. I don’t need to see someone with one leg grow a limb but if that happened I would be as excited as anyone

Cinette*

Cinette: I love your posts! I wish I could give you a great big hug!

 

[Padrej]

I don’t think that the hymns can be categorised as “worship”. It is clear we love Mary and we appreciate her and I am sure Jesus would not object!

You do have a problem with that Leeann I know but we don’t.

Cheers
Cinette

Check out Revelation chapters 4 and 5 The hymn is certainly part of “Worship” in Heaven.
The dictionary defines “worship” as:
*: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
the ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed
*
As part of worship there is praise and hymns where love of God, or in this case Mary, is expressed.

 

[FrJohnB]

I don’t think that the hymns can be categorised as “worship”. It is clear we love Mary and we appreciate her and I am sure Jesus would not object!

You do have a problem with that Leeann I know but we don’t.

Cheers
Cinette

Hymns are very much and integral part of worship and fall very neatly into the category of Worship as we show adoration through them, devotion through them and our love and praise through them. A Hymn is not just some sideline item that gets thrown into any worship service of Mass but are part of our worship towards the Trinity. In the Old Testament they were also part of the temple worship service as well.

 

[KathleenGee]

People can judge by appearances.

What is wrong in singing to one’s spiritual mother? One’s posture to Mary does not mean worship. It may appear that way to those who are indoctrinated to believe we worship her.

But people also need the discipline of outward appearances, – and virtue lies in moderation. If someone is excessive in appearance, they are probably excessive in something else as well…so you are focusing on individuals with personal issues…exceptions.

St. Louis de Montfort is now a doctor of the church in Mariology. He wrote ‘True Devotion to Mary’, and reiterates the same thing that true devotion is not excessive. However, my provencial told me years back that when he was in the seminary during the 1930’s, they were instructed to not do the consecration without their spiritual director’s involvement. Some people who got hold of the book would become zealots…St. John Vianney mentioned the followers of de Montfort.

I came to devotion to Mary through the European Latins, well educated people, and church professionals. It can be akin to being in a contemplative posture in discerning God’s will every day, but it is personalized by companionship of Mary. It is so beautiful.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

LeeAnn, you only responded to a part of my post, and at that, you simply reiterated that you ‘knew your friends better than I’.

Nobody is arguing that you don’t know your friends.

But you ignored the rest of my post.

And you’re also ignoring the fact that a person getting something ‘wrong’ (and if your friends are truly confused and actually consider Mary as divine they ARE confused because the Church DOES NOT TEACH THIS). . .does not mean that the teachings themselves are wrong.

If you go to your doctor and he tells you that you can eat a moderate diet, and your idea of ‘moderate’ is on the order of 6 full meals a day, then your doctor’s advice is not wrong. . .your idea of ‘moderate’ is what is wrong.

If the doctor makes it clear that by ‘moderate’ he means that you need not cut out a particular food, and if there are plenty of handouts in his office where you can find out the food pyramid, the average calorie counts a person needs to maintain a given weight, etc., but you don’t bother to look, or you look but think, "that’s not right, I know better’. . .it is not your doctor’s fault if you don’t abide by his advice, and his advice is still correct. The problem is you and you not following the advice properly.

 

[KathleenGee]

I pray for the protestants to seek the Holy Spirit’s direction in understanding Mary, not their teachers who are actively opposing the Church.

I can’t help but see fundamentalist teachers as making an idol of the Bible…using the Sacred Word of God to fracture and keep people away from being part of the true communion of saints we have…

Mary is the one who makes our Church a family, and brings the expression of the feminine into the Church.

 

[Saintlucy]

I pray for the protestants to seek the Holy Spirit’s direction in understanding Mary, not their teachers who are actively opposing the Church.

I can’t help but see fundamentalist teachers as making an idol of the Bible…using the Sacred Word of God to fracture and keep people away from being part of the true communion of saints we have…

Mary is the one who makes our Church a family, and brings the expression of the feminine into the Church.

A very interesting point, Kathleen. I have a very good friend who is a Baptist. She never pontificates to me and I answer her questions about the Catholic Church very carefully. She has seen my way of life and, being so steeped in the love of God as she is, she will ask a question with the inevitable, “Where is that in the bible?” I don’t know, are they indoctinated to idolize the bible without realizing it? I think so. She knows I read the bible so that’s no problem. I have about 6 different versions in the house.

When my mother died last year my friend came to her Requiem and it was the first time she had ever been in a Catholic church. "Her first words to me afterwards were, “It’s so Christ centred”, as though we were a kind of secret cult which did weird and blasphemous things. She was greatly taken with the fact that the priest kissed the bible after saying the Gospel. As for our Blessed Lady, I have explained the Rosary to her after she asked and she seems to understand- or at least is open to the special love we have for Her.

I pray that she will come to me and ask for instruction. I will not push her though.

 

[Cathryn]

Our relationship with Jesus Christ involves the whole Body of Christ, not just the head of the Body who is Jesus Christ. To want nothing to do with His mother who He gave to us when he said, “Behold your mother” to the disciple, is to want nothing to do with the rest of His Body. Those in heaven are part of His Body. They are not just dead people who have nothing to do with us. We are all members and interconnected through our prayers. We are all conected in a very personal relationship. The concept of the Communion of Saints and the Body of Christ seems to be lacking in most non-Catholic Christians.

Many Protestants have a concept of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, yet want nothing to do with the concept of a personal relationship with the rest of His Body. The Church is One. This is what Jesus prayed for__the Church on Earth, the Church in Heaven, and the Church on their way to Heaven, in Purgatory. We can’t have Jesus all by Himself, just Him and me. Mary is part of His Body. We are all spritual relatives.

 

[Saintlucy]

Our relationship with Jesus Christ involves the whole Body of Christ, not just the head of the Body who is Jesus Christ. To want nothing to do with His mother who He gave to us when he said, “Behold your mother” to the disciple, is to want nothing to do with the rest of His Body. Those in heaven are part of His Body. They are not just dead people who have nothing to do with us. We are all members and interconnected through our prayers. We are all conected in a very personal relationship. The concept of the Communion of Saints and the Body of Christ seems to be lacking in most non-Catholic Christians.

Many Protestants have a concept of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, yet want nothing to do with the concept of a personal relationship with the rest of His Body. The Church is One. This is what Jesus prayed for__the Church on Earth, the Church in Heaven, and the Church on their way to Heaven, in Purgatory. We can’t have Jesus all by Himself, just Him and me. Mary is part of His Body. We are all spritual relatives.

Absolutely perfectly explained. Thank you, my sister in Christ.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Protestants do not believe how much power, presence, and grace there is in Christ through the sacraments, even if we fall into habit of receiving Him…

I hear Protestants always draw on the great heros of faith of the Old Testament, but I perceive an incomplete understanding of Christ when they do not recognize how He works through extraordinary people - the saints…

How much time to spend on Scripture…how much time to share with them the lives of the saints. It is difficult. My daughter married a fine young man who went to a Baptist college and is evangelical. His mother is 4 Square. We pray together. But one day I was afflicted because she began praying with me for the Lord to cast out ‘demons of religion’…she is a Kenneth Copeland follower and I don’t know what that entails. She came to our Marian Mother’s Day luncheon and could understand our relational nature with Mary…I think alot of that has been resolved, but she has these strange ideas that have been pushed on her, and when I see the damage it has done to her spiritually, it makes me think these are false teachers.

I see Christ in the faith of fundamentalists but I don’t think they see much faith – in the devout. I think the best thing to do is to invite them. My sister in Christ has never been to a Catholic Mass…she is leery, but I am sure she will come some day.

 

[Padrej]

The Protestants do not believe how much power, presence, and grace there is in Christ through the sacraments, even if we fall into habit of receiving Him…

I hear Protestants always draw on the great heros of faith of the Old Testament, but I perceive an incomplete understanding of Christ when they do not recognize how He works through extraordinary people - the saints…

How much time to spend on Scripture…how much time to share with them the lives of the saints. It is difficult. My daughter married a fine young man who went to a Baptist college and is evangelical. His mother is 4 Square. We pray together. But one day I was afflicted because she began praying with me for the Lord to cast out ‘demons of religion’…she is a Kenneth Copeland follower and I don’t know what that entails. She came to our Marian Mother’s Day luncheon and could understand our relational nature with Mary…I think alot of that has been resolved, but she has these strange ideas that have been pushed on her, and when I see the damage it has done to her spiritually, it makes me think these are false teachers.

I see Christ in the faith of fundamentalists but I don’t think they see much faith – in the devout. I think the best thing to do is to invite them. My sister in Christ has never been to a Catholic Mass…she is leery, but I am sure she will come some day.

I want to respond to the highlighted portions. I think you have a grossly inaccurate interpretation of What ALL Protestants believe in regard to sacraments and saints. If all you have been exposed to are the Baptist evangelical and Copeland followers I can see why. Many of us have a great deal of love and devotion to what most protestants call the 2 sacraments commanded by Christ; the Eucharist and baptism. There are some of the more liturgical Protestants such as Anglicans for example who also invoke saints. Don’t forget that Anglicans and Episcopalians (both Protestants) still view the 7 sacraments of the Catholic church as valid.
Sadly many Protestants do view the Catholic church with the same misconceptions that you seem to have, so I suppose some of us are in the same boat you are, just the opposite sides of the river Tiber.

 

[Padrej]

Our relationship with Jesus Christ involves the whole Body of Christ, not just the head of the Body who is Jesus Christ. To want nothing to do with His mother who He gave to us when he said, “Behold your mother” to the disciple, is to want nothing to do with the rest of His Body. Those in heaven are part of His Body. They are not just dead people who have nothing to do with us. We are all members and interconnected through our prayers. We are all conected in a very personal relationship. The concept of the Communion of Saints and the Body of Christ seems to be lacking in most non-Catholic Christians.

Many Protestants have a concept of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, yet want nothing to do with the concept of a personal relationship with the rest of His Body. The Church is One. This is what Jesus prayed for__the Church on Earth, the Church in Heaven, and the Church on their way to Heaven, in Purgatory. We can’t have Jesus all by Himself, just Him and me. Mary is part of His Body. We are all spritual relatives.

What could make one think that we do not want to have a relationship with the rest of the Body? I do not want this to become an argument in the wrong direction, but I notice that when a Protestant visits a Catholic church, we are pretty much barred from communion (there are some liberal Catholic priests who hand out the Eucharist to anyone). BUT most protestant churches have open communion rails and those wishing to have a closer relationship with Christ are welcome. This is just an observation and I know all the Catholic arguments against non-Catholics receiving so you need not explain them to me. From my side of the fence it appears there is open and willing welcome and the other, keep at arms length. If Jesus prayed we all be one should not the communion rail be ONE?

Also where do you find that Jesus prayed for souls in Purgatory? Scripture and verse please.
We protestants do believe in the communion of Saints (which includes Mary) so I think we can also agree with you that those in heaven are also part of the body. Remember Jesus said “in my Father’s house are many rooms/mansions,” some of us may be closer to the elevator and ice machine but we will be there too.

 

[FrJohnB]

We protestants do believe in the communion of Saints (which includes Mary) so I think we can also agree with you that those in heaven are also part of the body. Remember Jesus said “in my Father’s house are many rooms/mansions,” some of us may be closer to the elevator and ice machine but we will be there too.

Who will be closer to the elevator Padre? Would it not make sense that Catholics would, if we tend to venerate Mary more and she would be closer to her Son, that Protestants would be furthest away and closer to the elevator???
You kill me sometime.

 

[Cinette]

Cinette: I love your posts! I wish I could give you a great big hug!

*You are so gracious - :hug3:

Thank you
Cinette*

 

[Cinette]

I pray for the protestants to seek the Holy Spirit’s direction in understanding Mary, not their teachers who are actively opposing the Church.

I can’t help but see fundamentalist teachers as making an idol of the Bible…using the Sacred Word of God to fracture and keep people away from being part of the true communion of saints we have…

Mary is the one who makes our Church a family, and brings the expression of the feminine into the Church.

*Yesterday I watched The Journey Home on EWTN. For those who do not know EWTN, this is a Catholic Cable television network started by a nun in the garage of a convent in Alabama about 28 years ago and today this network reaches more than 140 countries around the world and also has a radio station. Marvellous.

The Journey Home is a programme where the interviewer (himself a convert) interviews converts (weekly programme - has been going for about 13 years now). Yesterday he was interviewing Michael Cumbi who converted 10 years ago - an ex-Southern Baptist with charisma and humour who has been engaged in various missions to parishes in different States. He announced last evening that he is going to seminary to study for the priesthood. He loves his Baptist background and the people and has a wonderful lively approach and talks like a baptist.

We Catholics are blessed to have such people coming into the Church. In fact I think that the Church should start “RCIA” classes for Catholics so that we can all know our Faith fully and properly! There is no doubt that secular/new age ideas are influencing the faithful - in fact, this must occur with members of other church as well.

Blessings
Cinette*

 

[Cinette]

Our relationship with Jesus Christ involves the whole Body of Christ, not just the head of the Body who is Jesus Christ. To want nothing to do with His mother who He gave to us when he said, “Behold your mother” to the disciple, is to want nothing to do with the rest of His Body. Those in heaven are part of His Body. They are not just dead people who have nothing to do with us. We are all members and interconnected through our prayers. We are all conected in a very personal relationship. The concept of the Communion of Saints and the Body of Christ seems to be lacking in most non-Catholic Christians.

Many Protestants have a concept of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, yet want nothing to do with the concept of a personal relationship with the rest of His Body. The Church is One. This is what Jesus prayed for__the Church on Earth, the Church in Heaven, and the Church on their way to Heaven, in Purgatory. We can’t have Jesus all by Himself, just Him and me. Mary is part of His Body. We are all spritual relatives.

*The Body of Christ comprises all baptised Christians here on earth, the Faithful departed who are in heaven and those who are in Purgatory (Oooooooo now I’ve done it - will get some remarks about that one!)

I’m off
Cinette*