Why is it wrong to love Mary?

[Jimmy_B]

Whose authority is Jesus referring to here?

The inquistions and the priest scandal for starters. Were these things the will of Jesus?

Much evil has been done in His name. That troubles me.

Your easily amazed then…

Justasking4

I think your posts here are misleading and disingenuous and in my opinion, you have absolutely no credibility. The only thing worse than having a discussion with someone who is adamantly apposed to ones own position is having that same discussion with someone who try’s to hide behind their bias, faulty statistics, sound-bites, bad sources, and pretend subject matter expertise.

Why would you use the “source” that you have (above) when you can go right to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This is the sort of problem a non-Catholic runs into when they get personally involved and tries to disprove something outside their own experience or knowledge.

Reading your previous posts here, I think it is obvious the you have a personal, rather than biblical “problem” with the Catholic Church. A review of your posts indicate to me a problem that runs much deeper than any doctrinal differences. You clearly show yourself (by your post and that is all that I have to go by) to be an enemy of the Roman Catholic Church, willing (in my opinion) to say or do just about anything to try to undermine Catholicism.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
495 Called in the Gospels “the mother of Jesus”, Mary is acclaimed by Elizabeth, at the prompting of the Spirit and even before the birth of her son, as “the mother of my Lord”.144 In fact, the One whom she conceived as man by the Holy Spirit, who truly became her Son according to the flesh, was none other than the Father’s eternal Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Hence the Church confesses that Mary is truly “Mother of God” (Theotokos).145
2853 Victory over the "prince of this world"169 was won once for all at the Hour when Jesus freely gave himself up to death to give us his life. This is the judgment of this world, and the prince of this world is "cast out."170 "He pursued the woman"171 but had no hold on her: the new Eve, “full of grace” of the Holy Spirit, is preserved from sin and the corruption of death (the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Most Holy Mother of God, Mary, ever virgin). "Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring."172 Therefore the Spirit and the Church pray: "Come, Lord Jesus,"173 since his coming will deliver us from the Evil One.

**
Quote:
He pursued the woman"171 but had no hold on her: the new Eve, “full of grace” of the Holy Spirit, is preserved from sin and the corruption of death (the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Most Holy Mother of God, Mary, ever virgin). "Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring."172**
I have nothing else to say to you. I will pray for you.

 

[Namesake]

The Church doesn’t have problems, that is the point. You are citing examples of men gone astray, not the Church.

Isn’t the Church made up of men? (I know you will wiggle out of this question)

The inquisition was perpetrated by the Spanish, not the Catholic Church.

Actually you are wrong. The Inquisition was a Roman Catholic deal from the get go. I recommend that you just do a simple Google search and read some of the information available if you really want to learn what the Inquisition was about.

---

“In 1231, Pope Gregory IX published a decree which called for life imprisonment with salutary penance for the heretic who had confessed and repented and capital punishment for those who persisted”.***

galileo.rice.edu/index.html

 

[justasking4]

jkarp;3225534]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
i listen to my pastor and compare what he teaches with Scriptures. If it lines up with them then i listen. If not, i don’t.
jkarp;
That is certainly not authority then, is it? Authority isn’t something you are able to choose to follow, if you feel like it. For example, take a police officer; a police officer has definite authority. If you are pulled over and the officer tells you to get out of the car, you get out of the car; there is no room left for whether or not you like what he has to say. Teaching authority is very much the same thing.

The problem with your example is what do you do if the cop tells you to do something against the law. Do you follow him even though he is an authority?
The scriptrues warn us about false teachers that will come into the church and decieve many. To say your church cannot err is to completely anul this warning. You are not to listen to your teachers uncritically but to follow the mandate of I Thes 5:21.

You are, in essence, claiming that the only teaching authority that you are willing to follow is scripture . . . fine, but why then are you trying to assert your authority over our interpretation? Shouldn’t you just leave us to study scripture on our own?

i look at these forums as an opportunity to discuss very important matters. No one is forced to respond or engage.

(I hope when you read this you don’t interpret me as attempting to be sarcastic or snide because that is definitely not my intent )

Don’t worry about that. I have learned to be tough skinned with catholics.

 

[justasking4]

Justasking4

I think your posts here are misleading and disingenuous and in my opinion, you have absolutely no credibility. The only thing worse than having a discussion with someone who is adamantly apposed to ones own position is having that same discussion with someone who try’s to hide behind their bias, faulty statistics, sound-bites, bad sources, and pretend subject matter expertise.

Why would you use the “source” that you have (above) when you can go right to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This is the sort of problem a non-Catholic runs into when they get personally involved and tries to disprove something outside their own experience or knowledge.

Reading your previous posts here, I think it is obvious the you have a personal, rather than biblical “problem” with the Catholic Church. A review of your posts indicate to me a problem that runs much deeper than any doctrinal differences. You clearly show yourself (by your post and that is all that I have to go by) to be an enemy of the Roman Catholic Church, willing (in my opinion) to say or do just about anything to try to undermine Catholicism.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
495 Called in the Gospels “the mother of Jesus”, Mary is acclaimed by Elizabeth, at the prompting of the Spirit and even before the birth of her son, as “the mother of my Lord”.144 In fact, the One whom she conceived as man by the Holy Spirit, who truly became her Son according to the flesh, was none other than the Father’s eternal Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Hence the Church confesses that Mary is truly “Mother of God” (Theotokos).145
2853 Victory over the "prince of this world"169 was won once for all at the Hour when Jesus freely gave himself up to death to give us his life. This is the judgment of this world, and the prince of this world is "cast out."170 "He pursued the woman"171 but had no hold on her: the new Eve, “full of grace” of the Holy Spirit, is preserved from sin and the corruption of death (the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Most Holy Mother of God, Mary, ever virgin). "Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring."172 Therefore the Spirit and the Church pray: "Come, Lord Jesus,"173 since his coming will deliver us from the Evil One.

**
Quote:
He pursued the woman"171 but had no hold on her: the new Eve, “full of grace” of the Holy Spirit, is preserved from sin and the corruption of death (the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Most Holy Mother of God, Mary, ever virgin). "Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring."172**
I have nothing else to say to you. I will pray for you.

Please pray for me----:blushing:

 

[Jimmy_B]

Here is another reliable Roman Catholic source which addresses Revelation 12:

**

Encyclical Letter -

**
EVANGELIUN VITAE (The Gosple of Life)
Pope John Paul II

***“A great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun” (Rev **12:1): the motherhood of Mary and of the Church *

1. The mutual relationship between the mystery of the Church and Mary appears clearly in the “great portent” described in the Book of Revelation: “A great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars” (12:1). In this sign the Church recognizes an image of her own mystery: present in history, she knows that she transcends history, inasmuch as she constitutes on earth the “seed and beginning” of the Kingdom of God.139 The Church sees this mystery fulfilled in complete and exemplary fashion in Mary. She is the woman of glory in whom God’s plan could be carried out with supreme perfection.
   The “woman clothed with the sun”—the Book of Revelation tells us—“was with child” (12:2). The Church is fully aware that she bears within herself the Saviour of the world, Christ the Lord. She is aware that she is called to offer Christ to the world, giving men and women new birth into God’s own life. But the Church cannot forget that her mission was made possible by the motherhood of Mary, who conceived and bore the One who is “God from God”, “true God from true God”. Mary is truly the Mother of God, the Theotokos, in whose motherhood the vocation to motherhood bestowed by God on every woman is raised to its highest level. Thus Mary becomes the model of the Church, called to be the “new Eve”, the mother of believers, the mother of the “living” (cf. Gen 3:20).
   The Church’s spiritual motherhood is only achieved—the Church knows this too—through the pangs and “the labour” of childbirth (cf. Rev 12:2), that is to say, in constant tension with the forces of evil which still roam the world and affect human hearts, offering resistance to Christ: “In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it” (Jn 1:4-5).

 

[Linda_Marie]

justasking4, you have changed the subject, diverted the thread off topic and basically done everything but answer the question -

Do you love Mary and if you don’t, why is it wrong to love her?

You trot out opinions that say she is not the Woman of Revelations - how does this apply to not loving Mary? Even if you think she is not the Queen of Heaven, how does it change that fact that Mary is the mother of Jesus?

The commandments which Jesus left us with say:

1. Love God with all your heart, all your mind and all your strength
2. Love your neighbour as yourself.

Since it is generally interpreted throughout Christendom that neighbour means everyone, how does Mary not belong to the set of people to be loved?

If you are expected to love the deadbeat wino living in a cardboard box behind a dumpster, how is it that you think you are not to love Mary?

If you have family members who have died, have you ceased to love them?

Do you consider Jesus to be your brother?

Even if you consider Mary to be dead and awaiting Resurrection, how does that stop you from loving the mother of your Saviour?

 

[Jimmy_B]

---

***Genesis (NAB) 3:15

---

*15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.”

Revelation (NAB) 12

1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was with child… …(4) Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne. 6 The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days.

10 Anyone destined for captivity goes into captivity. Anyone destined to be slain by the sword shall be slain by the sword. Such is the faithful endurance of the holy ones.
17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. (Revelation
(NAB) 12)

Revelation (NAB) 13

(8)… all whose names were not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life, which belongs to the Lamb who was slain.9 Whoever has ears ought to hear these words.10 Anyone destined for captivity goes into captivity. Anyone destined to be slain by the sword shall be slain by the sword. Such is the faithful endurance of the holy ones.

And in Isaiah (NAB) 7:14

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel. (Isaiah (NAB) 7)**

 

[Jimmy_B]

Here is another reliable Roman Catholic source which addresses Revelation 12, By n****oted Catholic Apologist, James Akin at Catholic Answers.

James Akin, Catholic Answers

“The Woman in Revelation 12 is part of the fusion imagery/polyvalent symbolism that is found in the book. She has four referents: Israel, the Church, Eve, and Mary.”

 

[Jimmy_B]

http://www.asacredmemory.com/images/ourlady2.gif

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[jkarp]

The problem with your example is what do you do if the cop tells you to do something against the law. Do you follow him even though he is an authority?

When submitting to authority, you do just that, and trust the authority to do the right thing. Is a police officer capable of doing something wrong? Yes, does that mean that we shouldn’t trust police officers in general? No, that would most likely lead to a general breakdown of our society (i.e. anarchy).

The scriptrues warn us about false teachers that will come into the church and decieve many. To say your church cannot err is to completely anul this warning. You are not to listen to your teachers uncritically but to follow the mandate of I Thes 5:21.

Read the words carefully, the quote says that false **teachers **(men) will come into the church; it does not say that the Church will teach falsely.

BTW - to which scriptures are you referring (false teachers)?

 

[guanophore]

Please pray for me----:blushing:

I do everyday. I pray that you will be able to get over what seems to be an insurmountable hatred of Catholicism. But, with God, all things are possible, and you keep coming back here, so there must be a reason.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

When submitting to authority, you do just that, and trust the authority to do the right thing. Is a police officer capable of doing something wrong? Yes, does that mean that we shouldn’t trust police officers in general? No, that would most likely lead to a general breakdown of our society (i.e. anarchy).

I think Jesus taught that you should submit, but not to the point of going against God. So if a cop ordered me to worship Satan or Caesar then I would refuse and be shot or arrested or whatever.

 

[guanophore]

Is it not true that only the Roman Catholic church is led by the HS and not protestant churches?
If this is true, i can understand protestants churches having problems but not a church that is guided by the HS.

Men are fallible, and can misunderstand the HS, and do. For God’s part, the HS guides without error, but our understanding of what he expects is limited, and sometimes we just don’t “get” it.

Its my understanding the inquisitions went on for centuries and had the support of the popes. How can popes do this if they are the vicars of Christ on Earth?

Please try to keep your rampant anti-Catholicism in check, and stay on topic. If you want to tear and the Church about the topic of Inquisitions, use an inqusition thread that is already open, or start a new one.

 

[guanophore]

Whose authority is Jesus referring to here?

Apostles

The inquistions and the priest scandal for starters. Were these things the will of Jesus?

Certainly not. That is why I am asking you why you are laying the blame on Him.

Much evil has been done in His name. That troubles me.

As it should every Christian.

 

[guanophore]

Isn’t the Church made up of men? (I know you will wiggle out of this question)

No need to wiggle at all. Jesus came to found a Church. Not “churches” but One Body. He Himself is it’s head. It is infallible because it is ensouled by the HS. Those who are baptized are members, but failing to live in the fullness of truth and grace, we often sully His body by sinning. The sin, however, belongs to man, and not to Jesus (the head) or the HS (the heart). To blame the sins of men on God is a gross mistake. The Church is pure, and without spot or blemish.

Actually you are wrong. The Inquisition was a Roman Catholic deal from the get go. I recommend that you just do a simple Google search and read some of the information available if you really want to learn what the Inquisition was about.

---

“In 1231, Pope Gregory IX published a decree which called for life imprisonment with salutary penance for the heretic who had confessed and repented and capital punishment for those who persisted”.***

galileo.rice.edu/index.html

I hope that you will consider actually reading some scholarly work, rather than doing your research on websites powered by google searches. Perhaps you are inexperienced, and don’t realize that there is no such thing as an unbiased website.

If you do really study the Inqusitions, you will find that the Catholic Church promulgated hearings so that those accused would not be summarily executed without trial, and enabled offenders to have prison time as an alternative to execution, which is what the gov’t wanted to do with them.

Of course, there are corrupt men in any venue, an some of them were involved in the inqusitions. However, it is wrong to blame the Holy Church (Jesus and the HS) for the sins of man. It is also wrong to hijack a thread on Mary by dragging the inqusitions into it. Did you , also , feels stumped by the question of the OP?

The scriptrues warn us about false teachers that will come into the church and decieve many.

Do you see your participation on this forum a fulfillment of that prophesy?

To say your church cannot err is to completely anul this warning. You are not to listen to your teachers uncritically but to follow the mandate of I Thes 5:21.

No, JA4, it is not. The reason for that is because we can distinguish between the Holy, Spotless Church and the fallible persons that are members of her. Since you do not see that there is a difference, you think that the errors men make are attributble to Christ, the Head of the Church. This is because you don’t understand what the Body of Christ is. This is clear, because all your posts say “your church”. You clearly do not recognize that THERE IS ONLY ONE CHURCH, and all who are baptized Christians are members of it. When you keep tearing at Catholics, you are tearing at the same Body of which you are a member, and you don’t even seem to realize it.

Catholics do not listen to the teachings uncritically. The difference is in how we go about criticizing. We start from a position that it is coming from God, where as, you start from the opposite.

 i look at these forums as an opportunity to discuss very important matters. No one is forced to respond or engage.

The feedback you are getting is the pain of people that you are tearing at in your posts. I know your goal is to wear people down, so they will capitulate. It seems like you believe God has appointed you to the ministry of debunking Catholicism, so that the souls of Catholics can still be saved.

Don’t worry about that. I have learned to be tough skinned with catholics.

Not just in the skin, either!

 

[Roy5]

There is nothing wrong in loving Mary, of course. What Protestants object to is the way in which she seems to be worshiped. And certain doctrines that were proclaimed in the modern era - Immaculate Conception, 1854, Assumption, 1950. When I watch the Rosary on EWTN, for example, the “Hail Mary” dominates, far outnumbering the “Our Father” given us by Christ. That strikes me as being far out of proportion.
One other troubling doctrine - that Mary was a perpetual virgin. Scripture suggests that Jesus had siblings. Why is that such a forbidden idea in Catholicism? What is wrong about Mary and her husband living as other married couples, enjoying physical union, such a wonderful gift of God. Read Matt. 1:18. This suggests to me that later they shared in the intimacies of normal and God-ordained married life.

 

[guanophore]

There is nothing wrong in loving Mary, of course. What Protestants object to is the way in which she seems to be worshiped. And certain doctrines that were proclaimed in the modern era - Immaculate Conception, 1854, Assumption, 1950. When I watch the Rosary on EWTN, for example, the “Hail Mary” dominates, far outnumbering the “Our Father” given us by Christ. That strikes me as being far out of proportion.

I don’t think the Rosary can be understood properly without the meditations. I don’t get EWTN, so I don’t know how they are presented, but the Rosary is a meditation on the life of Christ, through the eyes of Mary. Mary is not worshipped. That would be idolatry!

One other troubling doctrine - that Mary was a perpetual virgin.

Why would this be troubling, since scripture speaks so strongly about the value of serving God as a consecrated man or woman?

Scripture suggests that Jesus had siblings. Why is that such a forbidden idea in Catholicism?

Scripture suggests this to those who separate scripture from it’s context. The idea of Jesus having siblings is not a “forbidden idea in Catholicism”. It is just not consistent with the Apostolic Teaching. What was handed down to us from those that walked with Jesus is that He was an only child.

What is wrong about Mary and her husband living as other married couples, enjoying physical union, such a wonderful gift of God. Read Matt. 1:18. This suggests to me that later they shared in the intimacies of normal and God-ordained married life.

Nothing is wrong with married life at all. the Church does not teach about Mary’s perpetual virginity because there is something “wrong” with the married life. In fact, the Catholic Church teaches that marriage is a Holy Sacrament,and that the spouses need one another to get to heaven.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

 One other troubling doctrine - that Mary was a perpetual virgin. Scripture suggests that Jesus had siblings. Why is that such a forbidden idea in Catholicism? What is wrong about Mary and her husband living as other married couples, enjoying physical union, such a wonderful gift of God. Read Matt. 1:18. This suggests to me that later they shared in the intimacies of normal and God-ordained married life.

Ezekiel 44:2

and to beat a dead horse, until does not mean they had relations. until signifies the end of action, such as David’s wife Micheala was barren UNTIL her death. That does not mean she was barren after her death, it means she died barren. Same with Matt 1:18. It doesn’t mean Mary and Joseph had intimacy after Jesus, it means they didn’t have intimacy while she was pregnant.

 

[fbl9]

hi Roy5: the rosary is a devotional prayerand meditative prayer. we are asking the mother of our Lord to help love and know her Son our Lord better. would you defile the very womb in which Crist Jesus was formed?i say defile because of Mary’s immaculate conception> Mary was born without original sin>it is as if she was baptised before birth.if Joseph and Mary were to pro-create then Mary’s womb would have been defiled by orginal sin… there has been two other post put up while i was typing this one please don’t think we are ganging up on you.

 

[Namesake]

The Church is pure, and without spot or blemish.

It’s ideas like that that keep me from joining your church. From my perspective that is a ridiculous statement. Historically it is fantasy.