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Goth_Catholic
Guest
It never says that. It only calls him the brother of Jesus. Futhermore, early writings of the church held that James was Joseph’s son from a previous marriage.
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twf
Guest
Much earlier in the thread AgnosTheist asked if God “shared” part of his ability to hear prayers with Mary and the saints…well simply put, the answer is “yes”. The veneration of Mary and the saints is deeply rooted in the Catholic/Orthodox concept of sanctification/deification/theosis. Through grace (as received through the sacraments) our natures are ever configured more and more to Christ’s. We come to share in the very divine life of the Trinity and thus become more and more like God (without actually becoming God). As the priest says in the Holy Mass “by this mingling of water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ as he came to share in our humanity.” Mary shares in the divinity (being full of grace, and grace being divine life) of Christ as much as a creature possibly can. The saints do as well to various degrees. So yes, by grace they do share in God’s power.
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guanophore
Guest
What would happen if you gave permission for Catholics to hold their ancient belief that Jesus is an only child. Would that affect your salvation? Do you think it would affect the salvation of Catholics? Why is is so important for you to keep drilling away on this point?
Except that Tradition holds that James was older than Jesus…
If Mary did remain ever virgin, does that make it wrong? The thread is about loving Mary. Since you have no love for her whether she was a virgin or not, how is any of this relevant to the thread?
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Goth_Catholic
Guest
He wants to prove that Mary was not an ever virgin, thereby proving that We (catholics) are wrong.What would happen if you gave permission for Catholics to hold their ancient belief that Jesus is an only child. Would that affect your salvation? Do you think it would affect the salvation of Catholics? Why is is so important for you to keep drilling away on this point?
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guanophore
Guest
I agree with you there, what confuses me is, what motive is driving that? He has been jumping on these Mary threads since he arrived, trying to discredit Catholic beliefs about Mary. Clearly he has not been successful getting any of us to give up our beliefs, so what is the point? What does he gain even if he can “prove” that Catholics are wrong? Does that re-affirm the reasons for the hostility and bias? I am just baffled.
He is not here to get Catholic Answers, as he has said, but to prove to Catholics that their faith proceeds from “speculations of men”. It is clearly an evangelistic agenda.
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Goth_Catholic
Guest
I suspect he (and others) are afried of being wrong, so they attempt to prove that we’re wrong to make themselves feel better. If we’re wrong, we’d go to heaven anyway, but if they’re wrong, they’re screwed.
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
Luke 22:34-35
*34 and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted *
35(and you yourself a sword will pierce) 11 so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."
“so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."
11 [35] (And you yourself a sword will pierce): Mary herself will not be untouched by the various reactions to the role of Jesus (34). Her blessedness as mother of the Lord will be challenged by her son who describes true blessedness as “hearing the word of God and observing it” (Luke 11:27-28 and Luke 8:20-21).
Luke 11:27-28
*27 8 While he was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed.” *
*28 *He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”
8 [27-28] The beatitude in Luke 11:28 should not be interpreted as a rebuke of the mother of Jesus; see the note on Luke 8:21. Rather, it emphasizes (like Luke 2:35) that attentiveness to God’s word is more important than biological relationship to Jesus.
Luke 8:20-21
*20 **He was told, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside and they wish to see you.” *
*21 *He said to them in reply, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and act on it.” 7
*22 **One day he got into a boat with his disciples and said to them, “Let us cross to the other side of the lake.” So they set sail, *
7 [21] The family of Jesus is not constituted by physical relationship with him but by obedience to the word of God. In this, Luke agrees with the Marcan parallel (Mark 3:31-35), although by omitting Mark 3:33 and especially Mark 3:20-21 Luke has softened the Marcan picture of Jesus’ natural family. Probably he did this because Mary has already been presented in Luke 1:38 as the obedient handmaid of the Lord who fulfills the requirement for belonging to the eschatological family of Jesus; cf also Luke 11:27-28.
_______________________
Mary, the Mother of God was also one of His greatest disciples. Any questions? Does anyone here deny that Mary was also a faithful follower and disciple of Jesus Christ? I’m curious, who here doesn’t understand or believe this?
(all verses and notes, taken from online NAB Bible)
*34 and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted *
35(and you yourself a sword will pierce) 11 so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."
“so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."
11 [35] (And you yourself a sword will pierce): Mary herself will not be untouched by the various reactions to the role of Jesus (34). Her blessedness as mother of the Lord will be challenged by her son who describes true blessedness as “hearing the word of God and observing it” (Luke 11:27-28 and Luke 8:20-21).
Luke 11:27-28
*27 8 While he was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed.” *
*28 *He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”
8 [27-28] The beatitude in Luke 11:28 should not be interpreted as a rebuke of the mother of Jesus; see the note on Luke 8:21. Rather, it emphasizes (like Luke 2:35) that attentiveness to God’s word is more important than biological relationship to Jesus.
Luke 8:20-21
*20 **He was told, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside and they wish to see you.” *
*21 *He said to them in reply, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and act on it.” 7
*22 **One day he got into a boat with his disciples and said to them, “Let us cross to the other side of the lake.” So they set sail, *
7 [21] The family of Jesus is not constituted by physical relationship with him but by obedience to the word of God. In this, Luke agrees with the Marcan parallel (Mark 3:31-35), although by omitting Mark 3:33 and especially Mark 3:20-21 Luke has softened the Marcan picture of Jesus’ natural family. Probably he did this because Mary has already been presented in Luke 1:38 as the obedient handmaid of the Lord who fulfills the requirement for belonging to the eschatological family of Jesus; cf also Luke 11:27-28.
_______________________
Mary, the Mother of God was also one of His greatest disciples. Any questions? Does anyone here deny that Mary was also a faithful follower and disciple of Jesus Christ? I’m curious, who here doesn’t understand or believe this?
(all verses and notes, taken from online NAB Bible)
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fbl9
Guest
…nothing sutle in these words.
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
Luke 1:42, 46-48
42 cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
46 And Mary said: 16 "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
47 my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
48 For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
Most blessed are you…
…all ages call me blessed.
Isn’tLuke 1:42, 46-48, in the “Protestant” bible? I know it is. So if is in “your” Bible, then why does there exist so many “Protestants” who do not believe it?
What does MOST BLESSED and ALL AGES mean to our “Protestant” friends? Can any of our “Protestant” friends who like to interpret the Bible take a shot at this? I would like to know the “Protestant” answer.
Note: My question is only for those who do not venerate Mary.
42 cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
46 And Mary said: 16 "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
47 my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
48 For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
Most blessed are you…
…all ages call me blessed.
Isn’tLuke 1:42, 46-48, in the “Protestant” bible? I know it is. So if is in “your” Bible, then why does there exist so many “Protestants” who do not believe it?
What does MOST BLESSED and ALL AGES mean to our “Protestant” friends? Can any of our “Protestant” friends who like to interpret the Bible take a shot at this? I would like to know the “Protestant” answer.
Note: My question is only for those who do not venerate Mary.
J
justasking4
Guest
No one needs my permission to hold to any belief. I can’t see how if Jesus was an only child would have any impact on salvation for both of us.
i’m passionate about the truth just as i see many here. The catholics i have dialogued on this issue have been just as strong for it as i have been against it. No one wants to give an inch so far that i know of. Who knows about those who i don’t know.
I have learned so much from dialoguing with you and others on this kind of thing. You claim there is some Tradition for this. Where can i find this?
No. One of the questions though is this true.
Much of catholic theology is part of an “organic” whole. i have found there are so many related issues to catholic theology that its near impossible to ignore when discussing. I really don’t understand how a catholic can truly love Mary since she is no longer part of this world nor do the Scriptures exhort us to do so. Who we are to love is God and God alone.
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Rbt_Southwell
Guest
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justasking4
Guest
How does counting her blessed translate into venerating her? These are 2 different concepts.
I’m not aware of any verse or passage that tells us to honor or venerate her. No doubt she was blessed by God in being the mother of Jesus but the scriptures never exhort us to go beyond considering her blessed.
J
justasking4
Guest
Rbt Southwell;3306542]
Now when the truth has been shown with other passages and with commonly accepted 1st century AD Aramaic terminology, you try a different feint.
It was a big deal to you. Now you act as if it is all we Catholics care about.
Not sure what you are saying here. Can you clarify?
i just happen to like catholics and talking with them about their beliefs. You could look at this as a good place to learn about our differences and how to articulate them. At least here you get a chance to see counter arguments against your beliefs and look for more effective ways to respond. You also have a large body of catholics that you could go to that can help you. Your not alone here like most protestants are here. Think about the real world outside where many people are extremely hostile to the faith. Look at this as a training ground.
The other thing i have learned from this is to stay civil when someone is attacking me. That has not always been easy and one of my greatest challenges. i still have much to learn…
J
justasking4
Guest
go to my post at 670 for an answer.
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
- except when on the cross, when He was dying, He said “This is your mother.” Strange words from a dying man.
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justasking4
Guest
Your explaniation is one possiblity but there are others. I suspect His brothers were not even in the city on that Friday and would have been totally unaware of the events that were transpiring. This would explain why Jesus gave His mother to John who was the only disciple at the cross.
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twf
Guest
Jimmy B didn’t finish the verse.
How is St. Elizabeth not venerating Mary in this passage? She essentially says “Blessed are you! Who am I that you would visit me?”
R
Rbt_Southwell
Guest
Dang twf!
Don’t confuse a solascripturer with Biblical references!
Robert
Don’t confuse a solascripturer with Biblical references!
Robert
P
peary
Guest
If you read your Bible as carefully as you say and put who belongs to who, you will see that there is nothing in scripture that ‘proves’ at all that Jesus had blood-related siblings through his mother Mary.
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