Why is it wrong to love Mary?

[justasking4]

Hello justaking4,

*I’ll provide your the answer but as *a Roman Catholic, I do not “sum-up” beliefs using a “handful of verses”.

*Go here and you can read the article I wrote, addressing this subject, using bible verses. *

Christianity cannot be and should not be “summed –up” using a “handful of bible verses”.

*Note: please forgive any “typos”; I haven’t finished working on this article/post. *

Jimmy-- i read this paragraph in your article and want to ask you a couple of questions about it;

“Furthermore; if Mary had other biological children, where were they when Jesus was crucified? It would be strange for Jesus to ask John to take care of Mary, at the foot of the Cross, especially when, James the “brother of the Lord” was alive in 49 AD (Gal 1:19). He should have taken care of her.”

Have you considered another possiblity to this? For example, is it not just as reasonable to think that His brothers were not even in the city during this time or if they were were totally unaware of it as probably most people in the city were? Remember this whole affair since Thursday was done by stealth and done rather quickly. Events on Thursday night and Friday were moving extremely rapid. Secondly, Mary was not even present with Him at the Supper nor were any of His family.
The question we must also ask is: when did Mary become aware of the fate of Jesus? Was She at the trial? The Scriptures don’t make any mention of it. The only ones who in close proximity were Peter and John. We know after Peter denied Christ he is out of the picture. John appears to have told Mary after the trial and is with her at the cross. She most likely overwhelmed with grief and not thinking clearly.
It is quite possible that she would not want her other children there fearing that they would either be arrested or perhaps killed in trying to free Jesus.
So any communication from Thursday to Friday afternoon would not have necessarily happened due to slow communications and the family did not know what happened until Friday nite.

Again, this is one possiblity and i think it incorporates much of what we know from the accounts in the gospels.

 

[guanophore]

What are your top 2-3 reasons from Scripture that makes you think Jesus did not have blood brothers and sisters?

Have you not already noted that it is not wrong to love Mary, and that whether or not she had other children is irrelevant to salvation? If that is really true, why are you derailing this thread on that point? This is what I was tallking about “tolerating” different beliefs. I meant, giving permission for others to believe diffferently without beleagering. The constant practice you have of derailing threads over your unresolved feelings in this matter is not “tolerating”

.

Good question. Scripture doesn’t say what happened when the rest of His family became aware of what happened. Are you aware of any traditions?

Yes, but I am not going to post that here because 1) you believe traditions are “speculations of men” and have no merit and 2) I am not going to encourage you to use this as a method to derail the thread.

Do Catholic traditions make it wrong to love Mary?

How are you defining “venerating”

When Elizabeth greets Mary, and says “who am I, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me”, does it not sound like she considers Mary a notch or two above herself?

 

[blossom02]

HONOR MARY BUT DON’T VENERATE HER

    Moreover, it seems to me that the two times Jesus speaks to Mary as recorded in the gospels - between his birth and his death on the cross - he treats her in such a way as not to promote adoration. Reread John 2:4 and Luke 8:21 with an open mind.

Adoration of Mary is not promoted

 

[sambos671]

Hyperdulia is a higher form of dulia or veneration offered to Mary as the theotokos, the Mother of God. Latria is praise and worship that is offered to God alone.

The whole theotokos debate was to get away from the Heresy that Jesus was just a man. The early fathers wanted to ensure that people understood he was also God. To say that Mary was the mother of God was to say Jesus was God. I don’t think at the time the emphasis was on Mary.

Who said protestant’s don’t love Mary? I’m looking at the Magnificat and it says more about Jesus and the total faith Mary had in God. Elisabeth stament to Mary reflects this as well: “Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished” than about her immaculate conseption, Assumption, and personal charge over the Church of Christ. It seems most Catholics put her in the place of the Holy Spirit. “I beseech the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of the Incarnate Word and Mother of the Church, to support with her powerful intersession the catechetical work of the entire Church on every level…” - Catechism of the Catholic Church 2nd edition Joannes Paulus II. Mary is indeed worthy of honor! She trusted the Father entirely! She may not have understood how or what God was doing but unlike Zechariah she believed. Abraham also believed and it was accounted to him as righteousness.
My questions on Mary is this: Why immaculate conseption? Why the Assumption? Why do you have to say more Hail Marys for penance than Our Fathers? Why do you have to say more Hail Marys on the rosery than Our Fathers? Why didn’t Pope John Paul II beseech the Holy Spirit who leads us to all truth?

 

[peary]

What are your top 2-3 reasons from Scripture that makes you think Jesus did not have blood brothers and sisters?

**Because neither Hebrew nor Aramaic (the language spoken by Christ and his disciples) had a special word meaning “cousin,” speakers of those languages could use either the word for “brother” or a circumlocution, such as “the son of my uncle.” But circumlocutions are clumsy, so the Jews often used “brother.”

Also, Jesus grew up in Nazareth, and the people of Nazareth referred to him as “the son of Mary” (Mark 6:3), not as “a son of Mary.” In fact, others in the Gospels are never referred to as Mary’s sons, not even when they are called Jesus’ “brethren.” If they were in fact her sons, this would be strange usage.

Look at the descriptions of the women standing beneath the cross: “among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee” (Matt. 27:56); “There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome” (Mark 15:40). Then look at what John says: “But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene” (John 19:25). If we compare these parallel accounts of the scene of the crucifixion, we see that the mother of James and Joseph must be the wife of Clopas.

Also, Scripture usually identifies the lineage of the person through the father, very rarely through the mother.**

 

[Jimmy_B]

Jimmy-- i read this paragraph in your article and want to ask you a couple of questions about it;

“Furthermore; if Mary had other biological children, where were they when Jesus was crucified? It would be strange for Jesus to ask John to take care of Mary, at the foot of the Cross, especially when, James the “brother of the Lord” was alive in 49 AD (Gal 1:19). He should have taken care of her.”

Have you considered another possiblity to this? For example, is it not just as reasonable to think that His brothers were not even in the city during this time or if they were were totally unaware of it as probably most people in the city were? Remember this whole affair since Thursday was done by stealth and done rather quickly. Events on Thursday night and Friday were moving extremely rapid. Secondly, Mary was not even present with Him at the Supper nor were any of His family.
The question we must also ask is: when did Mary become aware of the fate of Jesus? Was She at the trial? The Scriptures don’t make any mention of it. The only ones who in close proximity were Peter and John. We know after Peter denied Christ he is out of the picture. John appears to have told Mary after the trial and is with her at the cross. She most likely overwhelmed with grief and not thinking clearly.
It is quite possible that she would not want her other children there fearing that they would either be arrested or perhaps killed in trying to free Jesus.
So any communication from Thursday to Friday afternoon would not have necessarily happened due to slow communications and the family did not know what happened until Friday nite.

Again, this is one possiblity and i think it incorporates much of what we know from the accounts in the gospels.

Hello justasking4,

If this your opinion, if so, please show me where it is supported biblically.

*Did you forget the story about Jesus’ “Agony in the Garden”? *

Jesus was arrested during the Passover holiday and Jesus was the “Passover Lamb”. His disciple’s and Apostles were fully aware of what was going to happen to Him, because He told them. If He had not, and this was done in “stealth”, then why did they know to look for His Resurreaction in three days (following His Crucifixion)? Do you actually read the Bible?

*Moreover, the Bible does not indicate how, John and Mary arrived at the foot of the cross of Jesus, so does that mean, using a similar rationale, to that which I have read here regarding Mary, that they were not really there? *

 

[blossom02]

Samuel

Why immaculate conseption? Why not?

Why the Assumption? Why not?

Why do you have to say more Hail Marys for penance than Our Fathers?
I have never been given Hail Mary’s as a penance. Have you?

Why do you have to say more Hail Marys on the rosery than Our Fathers?
To be Catholic you don’t have to say the rosary.

Why didn’t Pope John Paul II beseech the Holy Spirit who leads us to all truth?
When didn’t he beseech the Holy Spirit? You will be surprised in the next life how close the Holy Spirit and the Pope are.

 

[guanophore]

My questions on Mary is this: Why immaculate conseption?

So that Jesus could take his human flesh from her flesh, untainted by original sin. Also, so that she could reverse the decision of Eve, by totally receiving God’s commandments in obedience. She represents God’s intentin with Eve, which she rejected.

Why the Assumption?

I think you will have to ask Jesus on this one. Why would He not allow His mother’s body to rot in the grave?

In heaven, Mary embodies that toward which we all look, the resurrection of our bodies, and life everlasting.

Why do you have to say more Hail Marys for penance than Our Fathers?

This is a custom of the priest giving the penance, so you will have to ask him.

Why do you have to say more Hail Marys on the rosery than Our Fathers?

because the rosary is a devotional looking at the eyes of Christ through Mary. If you wanted to use a different kind of devotion for prayer, you could do that.

Why didn’t Pope John Paul II beseech the Holy Spirit who leads us to all truth?

He did, every day. Don’t get the impression that the saints in heaven are not fully in communion with the Trinity. It is not as if we as one “instead” of the other, but together with.

 

[justasking4]

Jimmy B;3310704]Hello justasking4,
If this your opinion, please show me where it is supported biblically.
It is a speculation since the texts of Scripture don’t tell us. Your opinion is also speculation.

*Did you forget the story about the Jesus’ “Agony in the Garden”? *
Jesus was arrested during the Passover holiday and Jesus was the “Passover Lamb”. His disciple’s and Apostles were fully aware of what was going to happen. He told them.
*Moreover, the Bible does not indicate how, John and Mary arrived the foot of the cross of Jesus, so does that mean, using a similar rationale, to that, which I have read here regarding Mary, that they were not really there? *
The only thing we know with any certainty is that Mary was not at the supper or the trial. We do know she was at the cross. We know absolutely nothing where His brothers were. To assume that since they were not there He didn’t have any blood brothers goes far beyond what is here.

 

[guanophore]

The only thing we know with any certainty is that Mary was not at the supper or the trial. We do know she was at the cross. We know absolutely nothing where His brothers were. To assume that since they were not there He didn’t have any blood brothers goes far beyond what is here.

I don’t think we can assume that Mary was not present at the Supper. Often the women waited table while the men ate. She and the other women were probably washing the dishes while Jesus was washing the feet.

 

[sambos671]

Samuel

Why immaculate conseption? Why not?

Why the Assumption? Why not?

Why do you have to say more Hail Marys for penance than Our Fathers?
I have never been given Hail Mary’s as a penance. Have you?

Why do you have to say more Hail Marys on the rosery than Our Fathers?
To be Catholic you don’t have to say the rosary.

Why didn’t Pope John Paul II beseech the Holy Spirit who leads us to all truth?
When didn’t he beseech the Holy Spirit? You will be surprised in the next life how close the Holy Spirit and the Pope are.

Why not is not a good answer.
Yes I did say more Hail Marys for penance and not just in the US either.
The Rosery question was directed to relative importance of Mary. Seemingly more than God.
Are you saying the Pope and the Spirit are one? (just a joke)

guanophore,
Jesus is the first of the resurection. All believers in him will be resurected and not lie in corruption. I don’t think the Asumption is necissary for Mary for her to be brought incorrupt to God.

 

[Jimmy_B]

It is a speculation since the texts of Scripture don’t tell us. Your opinion is also speculation.

The only thing we know with any certainty is that Mary was not at the supper or the trial. We do know she was at the cross. We know absolutely nothing where His brothers were. To assume that since they were not there He didn’t have any blood brothers goes far beyond what is here.

“To assume that since they were not there He didn’t have any blood brothers goes far beyond what is here.”

Hello justasking4,

Your are in error and wrongly citing the reason for my opinion regarding the so-called “brothers of Jesus”. I believe in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, because I am Roman Catholic and I surrender to God and His Church.

My own research, here regarding the so-called “brothers of Jesus” cannot be summed-up in a single sentence, as falsely indicated by you.

Please do not wrongly cite what I ‘assume” or wrongly cite the basis for my opinion(s).

Thank you

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
The only thing we know with any certainty is that Mary was not at the supper or the trial. We do know she was at the cross. We know absolutely nothing where His brothers were. To assume that since they were not there He didn’t have any blood brothers goes far beyond what is here.

guanophore
I don’t think we can assume that Mary was not present at the Supper. Often the women waited table while the men ate. She and the other women were probably washing the dishes while Jesus was washing the feet.

All you are doing is speculating. Maybe you have some tradition that says otherwise but that won’t help either since you won’t tell me what it is.

 

[guanophore]

guanophore,
Jesus is the first of the resurection. All believers in him will be resurected and not lie in corruption. I don’t think the Asumption is necissary for Mary for her to be brought incorrupt to God.

Actually, He is not. He was still preaching to the spirits in Hades when others were resurrected.

I agree that al believers will be resurrected, but most of us have, and will, lie “in corruption” first. It is the feast of St. Bernadette, and God has ordained that her body not be corrupt.

I agree that the Assumption is not “necessary”, but neither was the immaculate conception, or the incarnation, and a number of other things that God has done for us.

 

[guanophore]

All you are doing is speculating. Maybe you have some tradition that says otherwise but that won’t help either since you won’t tell me what it is.

No, primarily it won’t help because you believe all that is speculation too!

 

[area52]

Catholics don’t follow a “road built by Rome”. For Catholics, Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is the narrow gate by which we enter. Catholics have always held and taught that Scripture in inspired by God, and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness. We just don’t believe that any of these activities should be separated from the Sacred Tradition from which Scripture was taken.

I think you have that backward. Scripture was not derived from tradition. Scriptures was written by writers who were inspired by God. Traditions are mans doing following what was in the Scripture and adding more to it.

 

[sambos671]

Actually, He is not. He was still preaching to the spirits in Hades when others were resurrected.

I meant that in the way Paul did. Obviously, Elijah and Elisha both saw resurected people before Jesus was born. As far as your statement on the Immaculate Conseption this is what Ireaneus of Lyons says

But whence, then, was the substance of the first-formed? From the will and wisdom of God and from virgin earth-“for God had not caused it to rain,” says Scripture, before man ws made, “and there was no man to till the ground.” So, from this earth, while it was still virgin, God…fashioned man…Thus, the Lord, recapitulating this man, received the same arrangement of embodiment as this one, being born of th Virgin by the will and wisdom of God - Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching

The fact that Mary was a virgin was sufficient for God’s purposes.

 

[area52]

Sacred Tradition/

 

[blossom02]

Why do people wish an unworthy Mother on Our Lord?

If we really love Jesus wouldn’t we want Him to have a perfectly Holy Mother?

Would we want the best mother for ourselves so why not our Lord?

Wouldn’t God want the Mother of His Son to be Holy?

 

[sambos671]

Sorry Area 52,
You’ve got it wrong. The Old Testiment was writen first. Oral tradition surrounded it many years before Jesus. However, the New Testiment is entirely developed off of Oral tradition taught by the Apostles. Mark didn’t write his gospel until about 55 AD. 20 years later. His gospel is probably based off of what Peter spoke to him about while at Rome. The Didache, an early liturgy, is to be said to have been writen around the same time. Earlier than many of the books of the New Testiment. Pauls letters are his way of passing oral teachings to places he could not be at immediately. The New Testiment was first listed as we have it now by Athenasius couple of hundred years later! Christians read many works including the Shepherd of Hermas which isn’t cannon.