Why is it wrong to love Mary?

[guanophore]

I know this. However this is another indication how your church contradicts itself in this matter.

The Catholic Church teaches the Mary should not be worshipped, ja4. This is another example of calumny and bearing false witness against your neighbor.

That may be true of the early Christians but your church offically has doctrines that promotes hymns, prayers and practices that should be directed only to God and not some created being.

When you use the term “your church”, it seems to indicate that you do not understand the words of Jesus that He has One Church. This Church is His Body, and He has only One Body. Comments like this appear to be deliberately divisive and hostile.

No, ja4, the prayers that you have cited are not “offical” prayers. Doctrine is the defnition of the precepts of faith. It does not “promote hymns, prayers and practices”. Doctrine does not “promote” at all. It is the definition of precepts of faith. People, on the other hand, do create all kinds of hymns, prayers, and practices. Some of these are not consistent with the doctrine the Church teaches. The Church is not responsible for the sins of individuals, ja4, any more than Jesus is responsible for the sins of Judas.

It is not wrong to ask prayer from others. Jesus and the Apostles encouraged us to pray for one another. This “jesus only” idea that you have is not at all consistent with the Teaching of Jesus.

Have you looked at the context for these passages you quote? Is there any exhortation that you are to continue to love those who have died?

Yes, I have studied them extensively. Scripture is clear that death does not separate us. No, there is no exhortation anywhere that we should stop loving those who have died. Jesus would not do that, so why should we?

How do you go about expressing love to someone who has died? Are they aware that you are expressing this love to them?

I do the same things I do for you. I forgive them, as Jesus instructed, and I pray for them.

Do you yourself have a “2 way relationship” with loved ones in heaven?
How do those in heaven express their love to you?

Yes. Death does not separate us from the Love of God. They express their love by being part of the “cloud of witnesses” to whom I can aspire by my conduct. They pray for the faithful, and they do works of miracles according to the will of God.

If its Romans 8:39 and think this is about love between the living here and the dead you are greatly mistaken. Notice what it says about love----nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It is about not being separated from the love of God and not about being separated from each other. We cannot be separated from the love of God in Christ but we are separated from each other by death and location.
.

This is not the Apostolic Teaching, ja4. The Apostles taught that there is only ONe Body of Christ, and that we are members one of another. Each action done by one member affects all the other members. None of us can say that we do not need one another. Jesus taught that those who come to Him and find eternal lfie NEVER DIE. We are One in Him because of His love, and no other reason. Jesus does not stop loving us because we shed the veil of flesh. Therefore, we are still connected to those who have gone on before us.

They are elements of worship.

I agree. but praise and honor also exist apart from worship. This is the case where prayers to the saints are concerned.

Not sure what you mean here. Can you clarify?

There are qualities that only God can have, for which we should give Him praise and honor. There are qualities of divinity in which God has ordained that humans can share. In such cases, we recognize the grace of God working in people, and we honor and give praise for how He manifests himself in people.

 

[guanophore]

To have Mary as an example is one thing. It is quite another when you are praising her in prayer and sing songs to and exalting her. That is a form of worship.

No, j4. You believe this because you have a misunderstanding about what it means to give praise and honor to those who have manifested the gift and call of God in their lives.

Worship of any creature is wrong.

i know full well what is claimed about this but it does not line up with what we see in the devotional material on her and the practice of applying these kinds of things. What we see in the devotional books and articles in regards to prayers and hymns is something that has elements of worship.

It is not just a “claim”, ja4, it is the official teaching. Elements of worship do not worship make. Some people go overboard in their devotions and practices. That does not invalidate what the Catholic Church Teaches. Blaming wrong actions on the Church is like blaming Jesus for the actions of Judas.

No. Scripture never commands such a thing.

Oh, but this command is most certainly found in scripture!

The only One we are to love is God in this sense.

What “sense” are you talking about?!? Do you mean to say that you have no love at all for any of the members of the Body?

We are to love our fellow man who is alive now on earth but not to those who have died. We no longer have a relationship with the dead.

I guess this is a decision you can make. Each man has a free will, and if you wish to cut yourself off from the members of the Body that are now perfected in faith, that is your perogative. It is amazing to me that you could reject the Mother of Jesus, when He obviously had such affection for her.

Just because someone may be alive after death doesn’t mean you can have some kind of relationship with them or that they can hear your prayers.

We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. The departure from the physical body does not change this spiritual reality. The relationship, bsed as it is in the Love of God, cannot be dissolved by death. They can hear our prayers to the extent that God allows. He allowed Samuel to appear to Saul, even though Saul sinned by way of using an unlawful method to speak to Samuel.

Where do the scriptures reveal the nature of the afterlife? Is it not true that the catholic does not know who is in heaven, hell or purgatory except for Mary?

The revelation of God is not limited to scripture, but scripture does make many things plain about the afterlife. Perhaps this is grist for a new thread? Jesus clearly states that those who believed the saints were not alive in heaven were “quite wrong”. He stated that “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living”. All are alive unto Him.

Catholics know those who are in heaven that God has revealed to us are in heaven. Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Samuel, the thief Dismas who died next to him, and many others. But, you are right, unless God reveals this, we do not know.

How do these things reveal the nature of the after life?

The appearance of Samuel reveals that God does allow those in heaven to be involved in the workings of this world. The transfiguration reveals that we can have conversations with the saints.

The scriptures say nothing that a person can pray to a dead person and that dead person can hear you and do something about your prayers to them.

The scriptures say that those who have gone to their rest in a state of grace “never die”, and their souls are alive unto God. The Scriptures say that those who are in Christ are members of One Body, and that even death cannot separate us from the Love of God, which is what binds us in that One Body.

 

[submittedjoy]

i’m in shock. 99% of the time i usually get insulted Thank you for the compliment:thumbsup:

You’re very welcome!

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;3417997]
Originally Posted by justasking4
To have Mary as an example is one thing. It is quite another when you are praising her in prayer and sing songs to and exalting her. That is a form of worship.

guanophore
No, j4. You believe this because you have a misunderstanding about what it means to give praise and honor to those who have manifested the gift and call of God in their lives.

Where in Scripture are we commanded to praise by prayer a dead person?

Worship of any creature is wrong.

Then why do catholics do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
i know full well what is claimed about this but it does not line up with what we see in the devotional material on her and the practice of applying these kinds of things. What we see in the devotional books and articles in regards to prayers and hymns is something that has elements of worship.

guanophore
It is not just a “claim”, ja4, it is the official teaching. Elements of worship do not worship make.

Not so. If it walks like a duck, quackes like a duck it is a duck. These elements of worship indicate that worship is going on.

Some people go overboard in their devotions and practices.

What would be an example of this?

That does not invalidate what the Catholic Church Teaches. Blaming wrong actions on the Church is like blaming Jesus for the actions of Judas.

Catholic teachings support these things. The church encourages it and is in partnership with these actions by allowing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
No. Scripture never commands such a thing.
guanophore
Oh, but this command is most certainly found in scripture!

Where do the Scriptrues command or tell us to pray to the dead for help? Chapter and verse please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
The only One we are to love is God in this sense.
guanophore
What “sense” are you talking about?!? Do you mean to say that you have no love at all for any of the members of the Body?

Before i answer, how does the Scriptures define love for God? How do we demonstrate we love God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
We are to love our fellow man who is alive now on earth but not to those who have died. We no longer have a relationship with the dead.

guanophore
I guess this is a decision you can make. Each man has a free will, and if you wish to cut yourself off from the members of the Body that are now perfected in faith, that is your perogative. It is amazing to me that you could reject the Mother of Jesus, when He obviously had such affection for her.

How can you truly have something that the scriptures never teach? In reality the scriptures are clear the dead have nothing to do with this world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Just because someone may be alive after death doesn’t mean you can have some kind of relationship with them or that they can hear your prayers.

guanophore
We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. The departure from the physical body does not change this spiritual reality. The relationship, bsed as it is in the Love of God, cannot be dissolved by death. They can hear our prayers to the extent that God allows.

Death does end all relationships with us in this world. Nothing shall be able to separate us from the love of God but death separates us from each other.

He allowed Samuel to appear to Saul, even though Saul sinned by way of using an unlawful method to speak to Samuel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Where do the scriptures reveal the nature of the afterlife? Is it not true that the catholic does not know who is in heaven, hell or purgatory except for Mary?

guanophore
The revelation of God is not limited to scripture, but scripture does make many things plain about the afterlife. Perhaps this is grist for a new thread? Jesus clearly states that those who believed the saints were not alive in heaven were “quite wrong”. He stated that “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living”. All are alive unto Him.

What you are assuming beyond what the scriptures say is that you continue to have relationships with the dead.

Catholics know those who are in heaven that God has revealed to us are in heaven. Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Samuel, the thief Dismas who died next to him, and many others.

I accept what the scriptures say about these. Even in these cases here are we ever exhorted to pray to them for help.

But, you are right, unless God reveals this, we do not know.

Would you say then that praying to a dead relative is wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
How do these things reveal the nature of the after life?

guanophore
The appearance of Samuel reveals that God does allow those in heaven to be involved in the workings of this world. The transfiguration reveals that we can have conversations with the saints.

How does the transfiguration reveal that we can have conversations with the saints if the scriptures never use this passage in this way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
The scriptures say nothing that a person can pray to a dead person and that dead person can hear you and do something about your prayers to them.

guanophore
The scriptures say that those who have gone to their rest in a state of grace “never die”, and their souls are alive unto God. The Scriptures say that those who are in Christ are members of One Body, and that even death cannot separate us from the Love of God, which is what binds us in that One Body.

Notice what you are not saying and that is that you can have an ongoing relationship with them and communicate with them via prayer.

 

[submittedjoy]

guanophore
I guess this is a decision you can make. Each man has a free will, and if you wish to cut yourself off from the members of the Body that are now perfected in faith, that is your perogative. It is amazing to me that you could reject the Mother of Jesus, when He obviously had such affection for her.

My natural mother died when I was 2 years old. I “loved” her and admire what I’ve been told about her, but I don’t pray to her and I definitely don’t bow down in front of her picture etc. etc. She is dead. I know this. She repented on her death bed so I know I will see her again some day. Scripture teaches this. We sorrow but not as one who has no hope.

My natural grandmother (mom’s mother) raised me from the time I was 2 years old. I was extremely close to her. I “loved” her VERY MUCH… But… she is dead too. Has been for six years. I have lots of pictures of her and I look at them from time to time but I would be appalled if anyone ever suggested that I bow down (or even bown my head) to that picture and pray to her.

My point is… I have had 2 mothers. One natural, One adopted. I loved them both very much. Saying that I had affection for them goes without saying… but, does that mean that I expect you to love them? Pray to them? Put them before God?

So… I’m of course Christ loved his natural moter…the one who gave birth to him and brought him up… But he never said nor did he ever imply to anyone… (except for John when Jesus was on the cross… and it was strictly in a natural, protective sense) Other that that, he never said, “Here is my mother… love her as I did, pray to her, ask for her help, venerate her…”

 

[guanophore]

My natural grandmother (mom’s mother) raised me from the time I was 2 years old. I was extremely close to her. I “loved” her VERY MUCH… But… she is dead too. Has been for six years. I have lots of pictures of her and I look at them from time to time but I would be appalled if anyone ever suggested that I bow down (or even bown my head) to that picture and pray to her.

My point is… I have had 2 mothers. One natural, One adopted. I loved them both very much. Saying that I had affection for them goes without saying… but, does that mean that I expect you to love them? Pray to them? Put them before God?

I am glad that you had love and affection for both your mothers. Apparently saying one has affection does not go without saying for some. There are some who don’t appear to have any affection for their natural mothers, and cannot fathom how Jesus would have affection for His.

It may be your notion of “prayer” is just too narrow. What we ask is those who have gone before us in faith to pray for us as we labor to join them. Yes, you could expect me to love your mother, especially if you specifically asked me to do so on your deathbed. You could also expect this if I knew her, and shared in her motherhood. " Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, 30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands…” Mark 10:29-30

Why would we not think this promise of Jesus would not come true? How can we have a “hundredfold” of mothers unless we adopt them in Christ?

Paul did this by example:
“Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too.” Rom 16:13

How was the mother of Rufus a mother to Paul too? I expect in the same way that mothers always do mothering. She took care of her boy and his friends when they came to visit.

So… I’m of course Christ loved his natural moter…the one who gave birth to him and brought him up… But he never said nor did he ever imply to anyone… (except for John when Jesus was on the cross… and it was strictly in a natural, protective sense) Other that that, he never said, “Here is my mother… love her as I did, pray to her, ask for her help, venerate her…”

I think, in fact, this is exactly what He meant when he said we would have family “ahundredfold”. He started by giving HIs own mother first, as an example of how it should work. I can’t imagine that all the Apostles did not ask for her prayers and guidance whenever they needed it. After all, she spent more time with him than any other person on earth. Jesus was also a good Jew, and he honored her as a Son should under the commandment. Why would we follow the commandment less? If she is good enough for Jesus to honor, how is she not good enough for us to honor?

 

[planten]

guanophore
I guess this is a decision you can make. Each man has a free will, and if you wish to cut yourself off from the members of the Body that are now perfected in faith, that is your perogative. It is amazing to me that you could reject the Mother of Jesus, when He obviously had such affection for her.

My natural mother died when I was 2 years old. I “loved” her and admire what I’ve been told about her, but I don’t pray to her and I definitely don’t bow down in front of her picture etc. etc. She is dead. I know this. She repented on her death bed so I know I will see her again some day. Scripture teaches this. We sorrow but not as one who has no hope.

My natural grandmother (mom’s mother) raised me from the time I was 2 years old. I was extremely close to her. I “loved” her VERY MUCH… But… she is dead too. Has been for six years. I have lots of pictures of her and I look at them from time to time but I would be appalled if anyone ever suggested that I bow down (or even bown my head) to that picture and pray to her.

My point is… I have had 2 mothers. One natural, One adopted. I loved them both very much. Saying that I had affection for them goes without saying… but, does that mean that I expect you to love them? Pray to them? Put them before God?

So… I’m of course Christ loved his natural moter…the one who gave birth to him and brought him up… But he never said nor did he ever imply to anyone… (except for John when Jesus was on the cross… and it was strictly in a natural, protective sense) Other that that, he never said, “Here is my mother… love her as I did, pray to her, ask for her help, venerate her…”

**
This is a very good post. I do not know what is going on between friends here. But I found this as a good post. Mary, the mother of Jesus has to be loved and respected as much as can be.

If any one loves Jesus then he/she should love his mother too. He/she should love whomsoever Jesus loved. It is sure that Jesus loved his mother (even though bible has not done justice to her cause, specially paul who never visited her or wrote about her), Jesus loved his mother more than anything else.

We learn from the christians that the message of Jesus was LOVE. Can any one think his love was not for his mother or any mother? It is not possible. If the Catholics love Mary and do not pray to her, then it is alright. All christians of any denominations should love Mary. She was a pious sinless person like Jesus himself.

In the end, I may say that it is not wrong to love Mary, the mother of Jesus.**

 

[brkn1]

Here is what a catholic scholar wrote about Mary being the woman of Revelations 12:

Raymond Brown and J.A. Fitzmyer, editors of the Jerome Biblical Commentary (2:482):
Most of the ancient commentators identified her with the Church; in the Middle Ages it was widely held that she represented Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Modern exegetes have generally adopted the older interpretation, with certain modifications.
In recent years several Catholics have championed the Marian interpretation. Numerous contextual details, however, are ill-suited to such an explanation. For example, we are scarcely to think that Mary endured the worst of the pains of childbirth (v. 2), that she was pursued into the desert after the birth of her child (6, 13ff.), or, finally, that she was persecuted through her other children (v. 17). The emphasis on the persecution of the woman is really appropriate only if she represents the Church, which is presented throughout the book as oppressed by the forces of evil, yet protected by God. Furthermore, the image of a woman is common in ancient Oriental secular literature as well as in the Bible (e.g., Is 50:1; Jer 50:12) as a symbol for a people, a nation, or a city. It is fitting, then, to see in this woman the People of God, the true Israel of the OT and NT.

You have to admit he makes some excellent points when you look at the context and what we know about Mary in the gospels.

I agree with the arguments you present that the woman of Revelation 12 could not be directly referring to Mary.
This should especially be the case from the Catholic viewpoint, since a sinless woman would not have the curse of bringing forth children in sorrow (pain), which began with Eve after the fall. See (Genesis 3:16).

The nation Israel makes the most sense to me.

Replacement theology, which says that the original Israel changed over to the New Testament Church as the new true Israel, does not make sense to me either.

How could Jesus logically say: “…I WILL (future) build my church…” (Matt.16:18), if that same church is what is supposed to have already given birth to Him as the woman of Revelation 12?
Only the original nation Israel directly, through Mary indirectly as a member of Israel at that time before Pentecost, would fit the description as I see it. Israel and the Church are separate entities in God’s plan of salvation.

 

[submittedjoy]

**
Jesus loved his mother more than anything else.** Hello Planten!

Thanks for your comment about my post.** But… **May I ask you a question?

I have no doubt that Jesus loved his mother. Like I said, it goes without saying… but… **Where in the Bible **does it say that “Jesus loved his mother more than anything else?”

** She was a pious sinless person like Jesus himself.**

Where does it say that she was sinless?

** In the end, I may say that it is not wrong to love Mary, the mother of Jesus.**

I would agree… I love Mary, the mother of Jesus… but not anymore than I love John the Baptist or Paul the Apostle or the neighbor down the street.

Blessing to you.

 

[rikkk1958]

It is not easy for someone not a catholic to understand the Virgin mother of God. It is easy for catholic to know why, and I think catholics need not bother telling non catholics to make them believe how we love the Mother of God. Non catholics rely on scriptures alone and we have the scriptures and traditions plus the authority given to the Church by Jesus Himself. It would be futile to argue our love of Mary to them so I wish that they leave Mary to us. If they think it is wrong to love Mary then they should leave us alone. Catholics are proud to Love the Mother of Godand there is nothing wrong with that. It is the misconception of our love to Mary that they are jealous of.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

This thread has exceeded its number of posts. Thanks to all who participated. Feel free to start a new thread on the subject if you wish to continue the discussion.

God bless-

Rachel