Why is Jesus necessary?

[EasterJoy]

I think I found disturbing the way it was done in the clip … how did it go?
Q. have you stolen before?
A. no, or maybe something small like a piece of gum
Q. you stole, you broke the command, what does that make you?
A. I don’t know
Q. makes you a thief and a robber doesn’t it?
A. i guess, yeah it does
Q. and where are you going?
A. umm, to hell
Q. thats right

Get out of town! Some guy is trying to tell some kid he’s a “robber” for having lifted a pack of gum and therefore is going to hell? As if that’s Preacher Man’s call? And this gets kudos on a Catholic forum? Not much reason to baptize infants before the age of reason, I guess. If you keep your nose clean, the Redemption isn’t for you.

Whatever happened to “let the one of you without sin cast the first stone”? Why didn’t that story start with a nice little grilling by Our Lord? “Hey, lady! I hear you were caught between the sheets with some guy besides your husband! Do you know what that makes you? Do you?”

She got that kind of grilling, but it wasn’t from the Lord. That’s not the Good News.

 

[reen12]

If one thinks about it, other than
“I am the Lord thy God…”
“Thou shalt not misuse My Name…”
“Keep the Sabbath holy…”

-the other 7 commandments are simple common sense,
from a solely natural view.
Those societies who failed to uphold the
other 7, did not long flourish and prosper.
It’s quite likely, that much of the rest is man-made details,
ending up with Jesus of Nazareth excoriating the
religious leadership of His day, for adding
to the commandments, thereby increasing the
burden on God’s people.

By the 16th century, those like Martin Luther
said, in effect, “This is nuts.” And, of course, he was absolutely correct.

When the coin in the coffer rings,
*Another soul from purgatory springs.

*Tetzel’s agents used that ditty - to encourage
buying one’s relatives out of purgatory.

If nothing else, disjunct views - on the nature of salvation,
provide near endless opportunity to refresh one’s skills, as an apologist.
Look at Luther’s success, in this area.
Just short of 500 years, later, Catholic apologists
are still having a grand time, defending the truths of the faith.
And they owe this self-satisfying endeavor to Martin,
primarily. All the rest is history.

My own post brings the # of posts to 101, with 1326 views.
There must be something of interest in this thread,
with 1300+ views of same.

I sure think it’s interesting.:coffeeread:

reen12

 

[Hlafdige]

Don‘t remember where I read the following metaphor – possibly it is one of Frank Sheed‘s – and I‘m not sure I‘m repeating it correctly, but maybe it will help:

Sin is like the water that gets into the gas tank of a boat, causing the boat to stall. The divine fuel that keeps the universe running won‘t, by its nature, mix with what the fall of Adam has made us. But wood alcohol will mix with both gasoline and water, and it will burn. As sailors use it in the fuel tank to burn off the water and get the boat started, our Lord Jesus, divine and human, gave himself to be immolated to burn off our sin.

The mercy of God the Father isn‘t just a thing or a thought or an attitude. It is incarnate in a Person – our Lord Jesus the Christ.

 

[GraceDK]

Hi GraceDK I’ll try to answer your question … here it goes
No and No … I don’t find the ten commandments disturbing and I don’t dislike that the man is a protestant

I think I found disturbing the way it was done in the clip … how did it go?
Q. have you stolen before?
A. no, or maybe something small like a piece of gum
Q. you stole, you broke the command, what does that make you?
A. I don’t know
Q. makes you a thief and a robber doesn’t it?
A. i guess, yeah it does
Q. and where are you going?
A. umm, to hell
Q. thats right

The preacher must view God as very legalistic … a kid perhaps nicked some gum, felt attracted to a woman (which is natural and a desire given to us by God) and Jesus had to save him from that? or else he deserved hell. I think the way it was presented to a young boy was harsh, incorrect and that disturbed me a little. That’s me opinion and impression, I don’t mind if others disagree

I would perhaps have put it in another way because my understanding of the Father (God) is different to this.

Preacher UglyGal (“PUG” from now on)

PUG: have you stolen before?
A. no, or maybe something small like a piece of gum
PUG. you stole, you broke the command to not steal do you know that?
A. I don’t know, yes I guess
PUG. what does that mean?
A. um I don’t know I took something
PUG: that makes you …?
A. um a thief a robber
PUG: yes, perhaps technically but what does it really make you?
A. um i dont know?
PUG: it makes you someone who has failed to love another by taking something from them without asking them or paying for it. We can fail to love in big things and little things.
A. yeah I guess
PUG: did you know that failing to love is failing to be like God? Everytime we fail to love we fail to be as beautiful as God intends and created us to be?
A. maybe, i don’t know?
PUG: did you know a child of the Father is destined for beauty and must be a prism through which the Father’s love radiates to others?
A. no, I was taught I’m sinful and damned and had to be saved
PUG: the only thing you need to be saved from is failure to love and failure to know and give love. Didn’t anyone teach you that?
A. no
PUG: The Father gave His word to teach us and guide us … if you look there you will find how you can ‘make up’ for your failure to love
A. um, what? i don’t see?
PUG: look in your own christian bible … “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”. “Today salvation has come to this house”.

there, i hope it makes sense. i suppose people react in different ways. If a preacher came up to me and had that conversation with me … lol, but maybe that’s just me. Maybe some people need the fire and brimstone because … i don’t know. I don’t get it

ps. no offence intended

I am not offended. The only things that bother me are arrogrance, the unability to listen to people from other churches without attempting to understand at all and other such behaviours.
Since you have now made it your point that you simply dissagree I accept that and dissagree with you agreeably.
The last part of your point… the dialog you made, was lost to me… maybe because I am not native american but I did not understand your humor/sarcasm/ example.

When I looked at the clip I did not think the young guy was being “grilled”. Actually he looked to be okay in the company of the evangelist. The only time where there is a shadow across his face is where he actually does recognise that he is, by definition of the ten commandments, a sinner.
You may say its kind of extreme,… and I fully admit that I am ever so tired of listening to preachers and priests that dont really preach but only tickle the ears of their flock. Its the same all over the place… No one dares to open people’s eyes to the fact that they are sinners in desperate need of salvation…and every sin is pitch black… But we are brought up to think that, really, our sins are not that bad and that somehow by just being mildly desent we will surely enter heaven. I hardly ever hear the urgency of John the Baptist or Sct. Paul in our sermons today. Why? Has the seriousness of sin lessened in our time? Do they no longer make sinners fall to their knees in tears when the veil is lifted from their eyes? Are they no longer recognized to be spittle on the Face of our Lord and stripes on His Holy Back?.. I my personal view salvation have been made cheep today by so many.
There was no fire and brimstone in the clip in my eyes… there was only a man who was being made to reflect on his lukewarm and sinfilled life.
What’s your style of Evangelisation? Silence? I have spent every day since I met Jesus 5 years ago, trying to understand why nobody ever told me about my need for God… I would have loved to meet a man who tried like him in the clip.
And Yes: Jesus is my Life West… In a huge and uncomprehensible way… He carries me, embraces me, clothes me in white and saves me every day. I find the symbol of the Life West symbol quite fitting.
And you havent told me whether you think that Jesus was wrong in his approach to the young, wealthy man?

Thank you for taking time to read this.

 

[reen12]

quote: uglygal

He didn’t will or want it but he required it?
Does it ultimately come down to blood? If you believe God the Father required, wanted blood to wash away our sins than Jesus is necessary, but if you believe he didn’t require or want it Jesus is … still necessary? How? I think an answer to this would get to the essence of my dilemma and perhaps help me understand

This is why I contend that the concept of original sin is at the heart of all of this.
No original sin, no need for “atonement.” [restoring at-one-ment with God.]
The question then becomes: was there an ongoing revelation
of Himself to mankind? Was there, and is there, Amazing Grace -
or has this been there since man began to walk the earth?

Consulting the Psalms, the psalmist cries out to God for rescue and he is heard:

How long, O Lord, will you utterly forget me? How long will you hide your face from me?
How long must I carry sorrow in my soul - grief in my heart day after day?
Psalm 13

A more recent parallel?
Save me, O God, from those who would describe You as a petulant, unreasonable deity,
more concerned about You and Your needs, than about me, or any other human being.

What kind of Fatherhood is that? Even human fathers are more able to love their children,
putting them and their needs ahead of his own.

reen12

 

[adelaida_i]

The preacher must view God as very legalistic … a kid perhaps nicked some gum, felt attracted to a woman (which is natural and a desire given to us by God) and Jesus had to save him from that? or else he deserved hell. I think the way it was presented to a young boy was harsh, incorrect and that disturbed me a little. That’s me opinion and impression, I don’t mind if others disagree

I would perhaps have put it in another way because my understanding of the Father (God) is different to this.

Hello Uglygal,

I have read recently a pice of a song cited in a catechesis book:

“Life in Lubbock, Texas taught
me two things: One is that God loves you and you’re going
to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful,
filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone
you love.”

It is strange that a message that is so beautiful arrives to be reformulated in such contradictory way.
But, if you really believe that God loves us a lot and the salvation is in loving the others you have a strange way of showing it, to say so. I’ll get it short, Mother Teresa when she decided to go on the streets of Calcutta to help the poorest, pick up the dyeing ones, teach the children that didn’t afford to go to school, didn’t accuse the others that they didn’t do it, she just did it, and many people followed her afterward. If you really think that the love is the key for your life don’t loose time to convince the others that they are stupid to think differently, love them instead! What do you think?
With love in Christ,

Adelaida

 

[CatsAndDogs]

I have been thinking about this alot lately … ultimately why is he necessary? …

Just what did Jesus bring that God the Father had not already given hundreds, or perhaps thousands of years earlier?

Why is he necessary? Don’t tell its for the forgiveness of sins or for redemption as the above verses show its not true.
So i guess my question is, what is Jesus so essential for?

Thanks

Excellent question!

Would we or would we not all be going to sheol (hades) if Jesus had not “opened heaven”?

The “beatific vision” was impossible before Christ, the “face” of God, made it allowable.

Why would God the Father leave us in that condition, by not showing us God the Son, who’s breath is God the Holy Spirit?

If you are “content” with God as God the Father alone, then you have SOME measure of the truth, but you will eventually fall into the same errors that the moslems have fallen into, which create in their using less than the full deposit of faith and truth, various and sundry “unintended consequences” which make it more and more difficult to be detached from our “impurities” which force us into, at best, our purgation, and at worst the hell of eternal struggle in defiance of truth.

 

[uglygal]

I am not offended. The only things that bother me are arrogrance, the unability to listen to people from other churches without attempting to understand at all and other such behaviours.
Since you have now made it your point that you simply dissagree I accept that and dissagree with you agreeably.
The last part of your point… the dialog you made, was lost to me… maybe because I am not native american but I did not understand your humor/sarcasm/ example.

I’m not native American either. I also wasn’t intending to be sarcastic or humourous. You asked me why I found the clip a little disturbing and so I replied and tried to explain it the best I could.
I didn’t mean to be arrogant. I am also not a christian so whether one is catholic or protestant doesn’t bother me, i simply see you all as christians. I don’t evangelise for Jesus.

I think people are different and react differently so maybe the approach of the preacher works on some people. I gave my opinion (and it is my personal opinion). i’m sorry i disagree with you
:hug3:

 

[reen12]

In His pasture, all speak quietly, when needed.
There are no raised voices - asserting this, and claiming that.
There doesn’t need to be.



reen12

 

[fhansen]

No raised voices,
just the whispered one of reen
asserting and claiming,
There’s no need for Jesus.

 

[reen12]

quote: fhansen

No raised voices,
just the whispered one of reen
asserting and claiming,
There’s no need for Jesus.

Not the Jesus of the Roman Catholic Church, that’s for darn sure.

Anybody got a megaphone? http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

reen

 

[franjos]

That question is very mean…and offending.

I’ll tell you why we need him. Jesus is the Son of the Father-the Creator of All and the Owner of All. If Jesus is the Son, then He also owns everything with the Father by right as a Son. And Since God the Father wanted everyone to acknowledge Jesus as theri King, then by humility, obedience and love we will accept him. Since Jesus, is now the rightful Lord and rightful King of the Kingdom you want to gain entrance into, then it would be His choice (not yours) whether you will be allowed to enter. Imagine yourself denied entrance in a feast, or denied entrance to the Castle of a worldy king. or denied entrance into White House. Surely, if you will not accept Jesus as your Lord and God, and as a Savior and follwo His words, you will not gain entrance to this Eternal Kingdom.

I hope that answers your offending question.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Please answer my questions, uglygal.

You prove the “shallowness” of your understanding of what it means to be a Person of God if you can’t answer some very simple questions. I realize that you were probably VERY poorly educated in the Christian faith, but that is why you’re here, to get some education so as to assist you in understanding what you want to understand, correct?

…

Would we or would we not all be going to sheol (hades) if Jesus had not “opened heaven”?

The “beatific vision” was impossible before Christ, the “face” of God, made it allowable.

Why would God the Father leave us in that condition, by not showing us God the Son, who’s breath is God the Holy Spirit?

If you are “content” with God as God the Father alone, then you have SOME measure of the truth, but you will eventually fall into the same errors that the moslems have fallen into, which create in their using less than the full deposit of faith and truth, various and sundry “unintended consequences” which make it more and more difficult to be detached from our “impurities” which force us into, at best, our purgation, and at worst the hell of eternal struggle in defiance of truth.

 

[reen12]

Whispers are often heard, when tyranny abounds - whether it was the Pilgrims fleeing England,
John Hus - trying to keep his light under a bushel? - or Anne Hutchinson, who miscarried, after being hectored by her fellow Christians, when she was put on trial - for months - including imprisonment, by a perfectly odius bunch of believers, before being exiled from the colony.
Mother of 14 children, Anne would have been better off, had she conveyed her views in a whisper. :coffeeread:

g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SFxXNtXRL.jpg

[At one point, in Christian history, you never could tell when the forces of light and goodness
would light a pile of sticks, at your bound feet…the more to give off the light of truth?]
An ‘illuminating’ period, in the course of Christian history? Stake burning was not limited to
Holy Mother Church - and her warm embrace of some of her children - which some of
her children found too hot to handle.



At given points, in Christian history, some could read the words of the Creed, by the light given off by the fires.

Who knows?
Maybe these fervid followers, of the Prince of Peace - got the
flames of the stake confused with tongues of fire. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

reen12

 

[uglygal]

You prove the “shallowness” of your understanding of what it means to be a Person of God if you can’t answer some very simple questions.

how is eloquence of the tongue proof of whether your a person of God? Afterall Moses said, “I have never been eloquent, neither recently nor in time past, nor since You have spoken to Your servant; for I am slow of speech and slow of tongue”.

all your questions have christian assumptions, Jesus is needed or we’re all going to sheol, union with God is impossible except though jesus, God has a son that needs to be shown, anyone who is not christian is partially if not wholly blind. Those who are not christian have a right to ask why?

The Jews know their scripture, they know their tradition, the messiah was promised to them … and they do not see Jesus as necessary

simpletoremember.com/vitals/jewsandjesus.htm

I was wondering can you direct me to the OT where God says all people are going to Sheol or the beaitific vision is impossible before Jesus. I haven’t come across anything to that effect but I might be wrong. Thanks

I was thinking that maybe for the sake of peace and not offending people we should agree to disagree. I’m not aware I’m breaking any forum rules but if the question offends many then maybe someone should dob me in and get me kicked off. Or better yet, my lips are sealed :getholy:

 

[reen12]

quote: uglygal

Or better yet, my lips are sealed :getholy:

I got thinking about rocks. And stoning someone.
And the response of Jesus, to this quaint custom.

Rocks are featured, in both the OT and the NT.

-stoning with rocks
-rocks that were to be left in their natural form, to build an altar
-Moses striking a rock, and the waters flowed
-Moses smashing the rock tablets of the commandments
-the seed that fell among rocks
-Simon, as Peter. “Upon this rock…”
-God could raise up sons of Abraham from these rocks. The Baptist.
-He lifted me out of the mire, and set me high up - in the cleft of a rock

youtube.com/watch?v=v4r1hZyHvS4&feature=related

2 Samuel 6:14.

Just sing to the Lord a new song…
Like David, dancing before the Ark…
He could not contain his love of God.

reen12

 

[fhansen]

The Jews know their scripture, they know their tradition, the messiah was promised to them … and they do not see Jesus as necessary

Your remark about a messiah brings up something which hasn’t been discussed. We believe Jesus came for many reasons, at a particular point in human history when the time was ripe, and likewise that He can enter our own, individual, histories when we’re ready for a change of heart.

The fact that people do bad things, sometimes even in the name of God or anything else they may want to invoke, tells me that the doctrine of original sin may have merit and is worth a deeper look. Why would anyone do anything bad, and especially any of the most atrocious acts which have been committed? It doesn’t make a lot of sense unless something’s broken in man-and he doesn’t know it.

Getting back to the topic of messiah, if nothing’s in need of change, why would the Jews or the world need a messiah at all, whether the God-man Jesus or any other kind of savior? Why is a messiah necessary?

 

[bpbasilphx]

** Originally Posted by uglygal View Post

The Jews know their scripture, they know their tradition, the messiah was promised to them … and they do not see Jesus as necessary**

This is one of the reasons that Judaism, as a religion, is erroneous. And if you think this, you are in error, as well.

 

[LilyM]

how is eloquence of the tongue proof of whether your a person of God? Afterall Moses said, “I have never been eloquent, neither recently nor in time past, nor since You have spoken to Your servant; for I am slow of speech and slow of tongue”.

all your questions have christian assumptions, Jesus is needed or we’re all going to sheol, union with God is impossible except though jesus, God has a son that needs to be shown, anyone who is not christian is partially if not wholly blind. Those who are not christian have a right to ask why?

The Jews know their scripture, they know their tradition, the messiah was promised to them … and they do not see Jesus as necessary

simpletoremember.com/vitals/jewsandjesus.htm

I was wondering can you direct me to the OT where God says all people are going to Sheol or the beaitific vision is impossible before Jesus. I haven’t come across anything to that effect but I might be wrong. Thanks

I was thinking that maybe for the sake of peace and not offending people we should agree to disagree. I’m not aware I’m breaking any forum rules but if the question offends many then maybe someone should dob me in and get me kicked off. Or better yet, my lips are sealed :getholy:

There are many many passages in the OT which predict the coming of Jesus, or at least of a Messiah. Why is any Messiah even necessary if people prior to said Messiah are all fine and dandy anyways?

A saviour, in the form of the Messiah, was necessary and His coming was predicted because people still NEEDED to be saved prior to His coming.

 

[trian]

I have been thinking about this alot lately … ultimately why is he necessary?

I have found that he was necessary when I believed God the Father was a nasty vengeful sadistic monster that was willing and waiting at every turn to damn me to hell - Jesus was necessary as the scapegoat of God’s wrath to take the punishment for me and therefore ‘save’ me.

Hi,

Ive wondered about this question for a long time myself. unlike most people i have a very strong devotion to, and love for God the father. And like you say he does love us… unconditionaly! But I’ve found that Jesus is necessary because God is both “mercifull”
and “JUST”. And Jesus is where God’s mercy and justice meet…

“Justice” because the price for our disobedience (in Adam and Eve) had to be paid. And “mercy” because God became man and paid that price Himself.

Isn’t that beatifull? …Hope that helps ye!

                                                              God bless!!