Why is Jesus necessary?

[uglygal]

continued …

This was my prayer to Jesus for many many years …
How long, O LORD ? Will you forget me forever?
How long will you hide your face from me?

How long must I wrestle with my thoughts
and every day have sorrow in my heart?
How long will my enemy triumph over me? Psalm 13
and there was NEVER a reply.

I called **once **to the Father and he replied …

"Can a mother forget the baby at her breast
and have no compassion on the child she has borne?
Though she may forget,
I will not forget you!
See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; Isaiah 49

Do not be afraid, O worm Jacob, O little Israel, for I myself will help you," declares the LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. Isaiah 41

The Father guides me …
Keep your servant also from willful sins;
may they not rule over me.
Then will I be blameless,
innocent of great transgression.

May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing in your sight,
O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

That’s why I love Him
I lift up my eyes to the hills—
where does my help come from?

My help comes from the LORD,
the Maker of heaven and earth.

He will not let your foot slip—
he who watches over you will not slumber;

indeed, he who watches over Israel
will neither slumber nor sleep.

The LORD watches over you—
the LORD is your shade at your right hand;

the sun will not harm you by day,
nor the moon by night.

The LORD will keep you from all harm—
he will watch over your life;

the LORD will watch over your coming and going
both now and forevermore. Psalm 121

 

[uglygal]

Eternal life is participation in the divine nature–since only God is incorruptible. So how does corruptible human nature unite with the incorruptible nature of God? It cannot on it’s own become greater than itself, so God united His nature with ours in the form of the Incarnation.

Thanks for that, I haven’t heard that before. Do you mean like absorbing humanity into his own nature so that we are intrinsically one?

 

[LilyM]

or I believe some have put it in another way … according to Christianity God sent Himself to earth to kill Himself in order to appease Himself for the imperfection of the very creatures he created

I’ve noticed you raise this a few times as if I don’t believe in God’s justice. I do believe in God’s justice.
but perhaps you can help me understand. Why is Jesus necessary for forgiveness and redemption? why is deicide necessary?

I mean this genuinely - help me understand
Thanks

To be frank if you genuinely do believe in God’s justice it really doesn’t show. You seem instead to take His forgiveness a little too much for granted. Throughout the OT as well as the NT it is clear that there is such a thing as presuming too much upon His mercy.

For my taste you behave a bit too much like the child who thinks they can do anything and still wrap their parents around their little fingers and coax forgiveness out of them regardless. If you properly read even the OT you’ll find it’s a little more difficult and a whole lot less certain than you appear to think.

Deicide is necessary because, God being infinite, the hurt we do to Him is actually in proportion to Himself. That means it is more than we can even comprehend let alone atone for or repair with our own meagre efforts. He Himself has to take a hand in crossing that gap, and He has to do so in a way that we can at least begin to appreciate and understand. So He sacrifices Himself for our sake.

 

[uglygal]

To be frank if you genuinely do believe in God’s justice it really doesn’t show. You seem instead to take His forgiveness a little too much for granted. Throughout the OT as well as the NT it is clear that there is such a thing as presuming too much upon His mercy.

For my taste you behave a bit too much like the child who thinks they can do anything and still wrap their parents around their little fingers and coax forgiveness out of them regardless. If you properly read even the OT you’ll find it’s a little more difficult and a whole lot less certain than you appear to think.
.

Just out of interest, in every one of your posts to me, why is there a judgment about my character?

 

[sawman]

Dear UglyGal,

I think you have a perspective on God’s justice and mercy that sounds familiar to me.

I love the Scriptures you’ve quoted, specialy the ones about God’s consolation of the broken hearted and His power to rescue and save. He truly is the sourse of my Life. He has rescued me and gives me shelter in the shadow of His wings.

I too have prayed for years at a time with no answer. This is a very disturbing and difficult aspect to assimilate in my relationship with Him. I am also frustrated by my ignorance. I tend to seek Him most dilegently in times of distress and to be not so needy when things are well. I can be thank-ful now for the trials I have endured, because they have drawn me nearer to Him. I can say that the endurance was a gift and all the gifts that flow from endurance are a gft as well.

Some of the scriptures you’ve used to detail your view of mercy, are some of my favorite ones too, but they do not represent comprehensively my views any more. I think I tend to look more to the issues of my guilt and remorsefulness. I guess one could say that our focus is in different places. I still do not understand how what you’ve shared is incompatible with the" need for Jesus". I also cannot see how you have seperated Jesus from the Father,if that is what you have done. I can no longer seperate the triune God into such totaly different persons as you appear to do.I would enjoy disscusing your ideas. Maybe our differences are one of meanings and vocabulary? I’m not sure. I am not trained to use my words and brains like proffesionals are so I would need to speak on a more basic level than you may be used to.

Peace to you!

 

[sawman]

P. S. UglyGal,

I don’t mean to be rude, but is it necessary to use your screenname?
I am uncomfortable addressing you with that name, it seems like I am insulting you.
As I am sure you are not ugly.
Peace,

 

[FCEGM]

… according to Christianity God sent Himself to earth to kill Himself in order to appease Himself for the imperfection of the very creatures he created

You make no distinction between some Protestant theologies and Catholic theology and thus have created a strawman that then disturbs you so. The “Christianity” you site is standard Lutheran, not Catholic, theology. I just addressed this in another post:

God the Father is not some kind of wrathful, Germanic pagan “sky god” who demands to see blood. Think about it. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was the worst sin that mankind ever committed. If it were otherwise, Christ would not have said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Thus, the bloody death of Jesus Christ was not something that the Father Himself willed or wanted. If He wanted it, then why would Christ have to ask the Father to forgive the people who were crucifying Him? God does not want or will sin. Sin is that which is opposed to His will. What the Father willed was that Christ go to the ultimate extent of love for us. As Jesus said, “Greater love has no man than to lay down His life for those He loves.” THIS is what the Father willed: that Christ become “one Flesh” with sinful humanity, i.e., to take our sins unto Himself and to identify so completely with sinful humanity that He would die in our place.

This is the mystery of the Cross. But, it is a profound mistake (and VERY bad theology) to assume that God the Father would not forgive us until He saw some Blood spilled. This is not the God of Israel, but the old “god” of the Germanic Arian heretics, who believed that God the Father and God the Son had two different natures. One cannot be an orthodox Christian and believe that God the Father willed one thing but God the Son willed something else. They are “One in Being” with each other. They are the SAME God.

 

[reen12]

There are some human beings who listen to the
claims of Chritianity - and remain not so much
‘unconvinced,’ as they are puzzled - by the
redundancy involved.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, God saves, forgives sin,
and provides a green pasture where He gives rest,
and restores the soul.

Where is there mention of original sin, before Christ?
Where is the reference to an ontological sin - a sin in our
very being, at birth?

Had I not been born into Christianity, I would not have
given creedence to it’s claims.

Had I been able to consider the claims of other faiths,
I would have chosen to acknowledge the God of Israel -
living by the laws that govern those who are members of Israel.
I would not have sought conversion, for these is no need.
Olam haba - the World to come, is open to all who acknowledge Him,
and keep the laws given for non-members of Israel.

It is the instinctive sense that God is I AM not WE ARE.

I hold that Judaism has a gravitas that Christianity does not.
I do find of interest the laws that are to be followed -
by one who acknowledges the God of Israel, and
chooses not to seek conversion to Judaism.

No idolatry, no blasphemy, no murder, no theft, no adultry,
humane treatment of animals, working toward the establishment
of a judicial system - that helps create and protect an orderly and a just society.

I guess the thing that puzzles me, is that Christian doctrine
teaches that the Christian faith is a gift of grace from God.
If that is the case, either one is given that grace, or not.

reen12

 

[beckycmarie]

It is the instinctive sense that God is I AM not WE ARE.

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” Genesis 1:26

 

[Valke2]

I have been thinking about this alot lately … ultimately why is he necessary?

Why are there four different ways to get to my favorite Ice Cream store?

 

[rotlex]

This is no answer but an embarrassing confession.
I struggle with Jesus too.
I have always known God (as in I cannot remember a time I didn’t know God), prayed to God, thought I understood God. Somehow the way I was taught about Jesus didn’t make sense to me. I actually felt He had come between me and my God instead of bringing me to Him. So, I had/have a lot of the same questions you do and struggle and pray that my inability to understand now doesn’t mean I can’t or never will. I want to “get it” I want to pray to Jesus with the love and confidence I feel with God, but it is awkward. He is still a stranger to me. This is my shame.

I wanted to subscribe to this thread, and found this as well. You are not alone in this struggle. I am a cradle Catholic, who has within the past months returned, I suppose I could say, believe I was called back to my faith. I have been re-learning, reading and studying. However, what you speak of above, is something I have struggled with for a long while. What I mean is, when I pray, I tend to pray and speak more to the Father, than to Jesus. I WANT to bring Jesus closer to me, pray to him, and devote myself to him and the Catholic church, but for some reason, I find myself, again, talking to, praying to the Father.

I am not sure how to overcome this, but I am trying.

 

[fhansen]

There are some human beings who listen to the
claims of Chritianity - and remain not so much
‘unconvinced,’ as they are puzzled - by the
redundancy involved.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, God saves, forgives sin,
and provides a green pasture where He gives rest,
and restores the soul.
Where is there mention of original sin, before Christ?
Where is the reference to an ontological sin - a sin in our
very being, at birth?

Had I not been born into Christianity, I would not have
given creedence to it’s claims.

Had I been able to consider the claims of other faiths,
I would have chosen to acknowledge the God of Israel -
living by the laws that govern those who are members of Israel.
I would not have sought conversion, for these is no need.
Olam haba - the World to come, is open to all who acknowledge Him,
and keep the laws given for non-members of Israel.

It is the instinctive sense that God is I AM not WE ARE.

I hold that Judaism has a gravitas that Christianity does not.
I do find of interest the laws that are to be followed -
by one who acknowledges the God of Israel, and
chooses not to seek conversion to Judaism.

No idolatry, no blasphemy, no murder, no theft, no adultry,
humane treatment of animals, working toward the establishment
of a judicial system - that helps create and protect an orderly and a just society.

I guess the thing that puzzles me, is that Christian doctrine
teaches that the Christian faith is a gift of grace from God.
If that is the case, either one is given that grace, or not.

reen12

The “ontological sin” is the notion of man that he can decide his course of action without God-that Gods’ authority wasn’t worth heeding, which is equivalent to saying that God is not God or there is no God, and the separation from Him which this notion resulted in. This notion, together with this separation or freedom from God, are still very much operable in this world and give man the capability of committing the evil we find here. Christianity holds that Genesis teaches that evil didn’t originally exist as part of mans’ reality-he was innocent-and that the fall from that innocence can’t be achieved by observing the Law-or “acting innocent”-but can only be reconciled by Gods’ picking us up and shaking us off-offering to restore our integrity and make the creation worthy of its’ creator again by His favor-or gift of grace- which can only come by our acknowledging our need for Him. Jesus’ life and death definitively reveals that Gods’ nature is not anger but, in fact, one of love and servant hood for His creation and that while we may think He’s angry at us because we know He has a right to be for our not loving and obeying Him as He deserves, He’s not. In fact He’ll become flesh and risk suffering and death at the hands of His creation, laying down His life, the victim for the victimizer, the righteous for the unrighteous, the most beautiful thing in the universe being spit on and tortured by the jealousy and self-righteousness of the world, if that’s what it takes to convince us of His love and need for Him and restore order to creation. And the resurrection confirms it all and makes real to man the hope of eternal life. All are offered the grace of God which He proclaims and mediates through a visible means, the Church He set up for that purpose, and through spiritual means anyway which way He desires. The Church can always improve at getting this good news across more clearly.

But even though God loves us unconditionally, we can still reject unconditional love-and so reject Him.

When I look around at the behavior of the world, I don’t observe an instinctive sense that I AM and WE AREN’T-at least not much of it. I mostly observe a people, oftentimes religious people, who go their own way, echoing Adam & Eves’ sin of YOU AREN’T and WE ARE.

 

[tessi]

Jesus said “Moses wrote about me”, “Before Abraham existed I am” “David called him Lord”

Jesus IS. Everything in the Bible talks about him. The old Testament is a figure of the new Testament. The psalms are inspired by the Holy Spirit and David “saw His Glory” and talked of Him.

 

[reen12]

Correction to my post, in this thread - Post # 48.

[Correction in blue ink]
…living by the laws that govern those who are [not] members of Israel.​

Was running out the door, for an afternoon appointment, and
did not note the needed correction.* Pardonnez-moi. *

reen12 :coffeeread:

 

[bpbasilphx]

I have found that he was necessary when I believed God the Father was a nasty vengeful sadistic monster that was willing and waiting at every turn to damn me to hell -

I’ve been meaning to ask you where you got this idea. It certainly is NOT what the Catholic Church, or Christianity in general, teaches.

 

[fhansen]

A correction to my post #52: It should’ve read, “the restoration to that innocence” rather than “the fall from that innocence”.

I was running out the door to get back to work…plus I’m old.

 

[sawman]

O.K. !

What’s up wid everyone running out the door???
How am I supposed to respond to any thing if everyone is interupting me to tell me never mind???

Laughing out Loud

Peace!

 

[sawman]

I just spent 45min.s Conjurin this brilliant post for this thread,

God’s finger was on me.

Just as I was to hit the submit button,

My computer turned itself off!

That’s cause I was running out the door and I’m old and I don’t know what my computer is doing!

Peace to you all.

I’ll have to share my brilliance later, lucky you guys.

 

[uglygal]

I still do not understand how what you’ve shared is incompatible with the" need for Jesus".

 

[sawman]

Dear UglyGal,

Please,I think you are well aware that those pious stories are not the teaching of the Church.

And anyway under the old covenant, all 60,000 are going to hell, regardless of where they were picked for soccer.