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Birdpreacher
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Interesting, Do you see her getting canonized if England didn’t break off from RCC?
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BigFellaMick
Guest
I disagree with violence. If Christ tolerated killing in “any” fashion then he wouldn’t have taught us to “turn the other cheek” even unto our enemies. All we need is prayer. If we put our trust in God he will deliver us. If someone feels that faith in God isn’t enough to protect them, then why are they pretending to have faith in the first place? Anyone who bears arms against another, REGARDLESS of situation or condition, loses their humanity in the process.
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john81
Guest
Perhaps yes, perhaps no, but Joan was doing her duty as a French citizen and a Catholic (being personally called by God to lead). Obedience was one of her heroic virtues. Also, it was not her fault that at the time bloodlines were God’s choice of succession. Hardly a reason to not call her a saint!
God bless
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john81
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Birdpreacher
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What an interesting notion, why would God want us to have feudalism? It was unjust and stripped people of basic human rights.
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mullenpm
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I must agree that the OP is in this for the argument; has no intention of believing what anyone is saying; couldn’t care less what anyone says. Best to just end the discussion (argument).
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john81
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Some would argue that the feudalist system provided better for people’s needs than our capitalist society. However I am not an expert in these matters.
“Why would God want us to have Feudalism?” Why is there sin? Because we choose the lives we have. This system was a natural progression of society based on farming, families, and the need for protection in a time without organized police or local law enforcement.
God does not force any sadness on us (which is ultimately anything that involves sin). We choose with our free wills to commit sin and therefore have sadness in our spiritual lives.
God bless.
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smichhertz
Guest
There’s nothing immoral in waging a just war. God Himself commanded the Jews to wage war.
You are making the false assumption that all war is immoral.
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vsedriver
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And to stand by while the innocent are killed is reprehensible and a grave sin.
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Birdpreacher
Guest
Should Ghandi/MLK have fought a war if it meant that less people would die in the long run?
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Birdpreacher
Guest
Who was innocent in Medieval France!?
The nobility who used the peasants as pawns to conduct state building rivalries across the english channel? Wasn’t the war to have King X instead of King Y? At the time were the english morally inferior to the French?
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Birdpreacher
Guest
Yes, I for one think the whole overlord and peasants = human capital notions are completely against Christ teachings. Feudalsim may be romantic for many conservative Christians wielding Templar nights memorabilia, but for me it is a bit too inhumane.
So God felt that English King X was better than french King Y? Why would you say that God wanted to establish an authoritarian regime which stripped people of rights? First you said God wanted kings, now you say because of original sin we had to have kings, is their a difference or are both notions to be considered the same thing.
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smichhertz
Guest
That’s Consequentialism, which has been strongly condemned by the Church. You can’t justify an act by it’s effects. The ends do not justify the means.
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Birdpreacher
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Exactly which is why I dont get the , well If she didnt kill those english invaders than the reformation would have ruined Catholic Europe argument.
wouldnt it have been more Christlike if a non-violent movement was started by Joan rather than her rallying the troops to kill the English Serfs?
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smichhertz
Guest
In order for a war to be just it must be waged by a legitimate authority, and have a reasonable chance of success. The war Joan of Arc fought met these criteria, if MLK were to do something like that, it would not.
Hopefully that helps illustrate the difference.
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Birdpreacher
Guest
How is an authoritarian govt, which does not protect human rights, and sends of poor serfs to the slaughter for the sake of nobels equal a legitimate authority?
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LilyM
Guest
She was not killing English serfs per se - serfs were left at home to till the soil for the most part. The English army in France were, a large part, nobility and others whose main occupation was fighting. Some were even mercenaries - hired soldiers (by the English) of other nationalities with no other reason to be in France than rape and plunder.
Did you know that they were known by the French as ‘Godons’ because of their constant habit of swearing (it’s the French rendition of ‘G-dd-mn’). Can the same be said of the French soldiers, who Joan insisted go to regular confession and communion, not swear, not consort with prostitutes, not indulge in drunkenness or most of the vices common to soldiers? Not at all.
Secondly - Joan was fighting to preserve her country, which regardless of the goods or ills of its leadership was intended by God to be led by French folk and remain French, as it has to this day. Not to become a colony or additional state of England.
Put it this way, my Texan friend - let’s say the Mexicans came across the borders of your fine state with a mixed army, say partly Mexicans, partly hired rogue soldiers from the French foreign legion or something. Imagine they ran around your neighbourhood raping your womenfolk, stealing your food and land, burning your crops and insisting that Texas become part of Mexico. Imagine then that GOD HIMSELF came to you and told you to lead an army against them, because it was HIS will that Texas remain part of the US. Would you not be in peril of your soul to say no to Him? Would you really say ‘Sorry Lord, what you’ve told me to do is too unChrist - unYOU - like - and I refuse’?
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pismopal
Guest
One can live a part of one’s life in an unChristian manner…if that be the case…and still rise to the level of a Saint. Joan was perhaps one of these…but whatever…she is a Saint…good enough for me. Apologies to Ghandi and MLK…
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Myqyl
Guest
May I suggest you check newadvent.org/cathen/08409c.htm ?
Consider the fact that Joan was declared a saint in 1909… I hardly think the political situation you refer to would be relevant that many years after the fact.
God bless
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Tantum_ergo
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The CATHOLIC Church recognizes her as a saint because the Holy Spirit led them to the recognition. And it has nothing to do with the papacy in Avignon (not for all that many years either). St. Joan was not declared a saint until the beginning of the 20th century for one thing.
When God speaks to you, I’m sure you listen. Well, so do WE.
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