Why is Joan of Arc a Saint if she killed English Christians?

[Tantum_ergo]

Interesting, Do you see her getting canonized if England didn’t break off from RCC?

Which took place almost exactly 500 years BEFORE the canonization. . .

I’ll ask again, when God speaks to you, do you listen? Why be so surprised that the Catholics listen to God when He speaks to them through the power of the Holy Spirit? We can trust the Church because unlike individual Catholics who might not ‘choose’ to listen, or who might get it wrong, the Church is protected by the Holy Spirit in her teaching on faith and morals. Canonization falls under faith so. . .I’m sure you can connect the dots here. Even in times when many Christians, not just Catholic Christians, fail to heed the word of God or twist it or come up with reasons that obedience to God isn’t something THEY have to do, the Church will still go on patiently, obediently, and BOLDLY proclaiming God’s teaching.

 

[Gift_from_God]

Why? Whether she killed them by hand or by leading her army, why do we revere her? Wouldnt non-violent protest (like Ghandi) be more in line with God’s Blessed are the peacemakers rule?

The thing is, The Catholic Church recognizes that sometimes war can be necessary. If your country is under imminent attack, and if all diplomacy fails and nothing can be done to stop an invasion, the Church recognizes that defending your country through violence is justified

 

[lucky4075]

Maybe the OP was originally thinking along these lines, as I have wondered about this myself: what implications are there/ how does God view it when Christians must fight and kill other Christians in war or another situation when they fight on both sides/ wear different uniforms?(like WW2)

 

[smichhertz]

How is an authoritarian govt, which does not protect human rights, and sends of poor serfs to the slaughter for the sake of nobels equal a legitimate authority?

I think you’re missing the point a little bit here. “legitimate authority” doesn’t mean that the government is perfect and only does right. It just simply means they have the authority of the state at hand.

I’m sure not everyone was a big fan of the Dauphin of France, but they all recognized him as the leader of the French people. Hence, he had the authority to wage war or declare peace.

 

[smichhertz]

One can live a part of one’s life in an unChristian manner…if that be the case…and still rise to the level of a Saint. Joan was perhaps one of these…but whatever…she is a Saint…good enough for me. Apologies to Ghandi and MLK…

It’s not unChristian to wage legitimate warfare. State’s have the duty and obligation to protect their citizens. Sometimes, it can be unChristian to NOT wage war.

 

[Poof]

God, being the infallible author of history, chose Joan to lead the French in driving the English out of their country. A hundred years later, the English converted to Anglicanism. Joan lived an admirable moral life and died a matyrs death. She defended her country against a foreign invasion, she fought a just war.

If you have a problem with her being a saint, why don’t you ask GOD himself? God chose her to drive out the English, which she did, completing the task given to her. With the English conquering a HUGE portion of France, do you think Joan had the time to organize a peaceful rally of some sort? And even if she did gather one, do you really think she would’ve succeeded? If Joan never joined the army, France would’ve fallen to the English.

English = Aggressors
France = Victims

 

[Birdpreacher]

English = Aggressors
France = Victims

i appreciate your post but I see it more like this:

English Catholic Serfs = Victims
French Catholic Serfs = Victims
French and English nobility = Aggressors

 

[Birdpreacher]

I think you’re missing the point a little bit here. “legitimate authority” doesn’t mean that the government is perfect and only does right. It just simply means they have the authority of the state at hand.

I’m sure not everyone was a big fan of the Dauphin of France, but they all recognized him as the leader of the French people. Hence, he had the authority to wage war or declare peace.

So would Nazi Germany be a legitimate authority? What if the UK launched an invasion of Germany to stop the Holocaust, would Germans be justified to fight against the invaders?

 

[Birdpreacher]

She was not killing English serfs per se - serfs were left at home to till the soil for the most part. The English army in France were, a large part, nobility and others whose main occupation was fighting. Some were even mercenaries - hired soldiers (by the English) of other nationalities with no other reason to be in France than rape and plunder.

Did you know that they were known by the French as ‘Godons’ because of their constant habit of swearing (it’s the French rendition of ‘G-dd-mn’). Can the same be said of the French soldiers, who Joan insisted go to regular confession and communion, not swear, not consort with prostitutes, not indulge in drunkenness or most of the vices common to soldiers? Not at all.

Secondly - Joan was fighting to preserve her country, which regardless of the goods or ills of its leadership was intended by God to be led by French folk and remain French, as it has to this day. Not to become a colony or additional state of England.

Put it this way, my Texan friend - let’s say the Mexicans came across the borders of your fine state with a mixed army, say partly Mexicans, partly hired rogue soldiers from the French foreign legion or something. Imagine they ran around your neighbourhood raping your womenfolk, stealing your food and land, burning your crops and insisting that Texas become part of Mexico. Imagine then that GOD HIMSELF came to you and told you to lead an army against them, because it was HIS will that Texas remain part of the US. Would you not be in peril of your soul to say no to Him? Would you really say ‘Sorry Lord, what you’ve told me to do is too unChrist - unYOU - like - and I refuse’?

Is my feudal french lord sleeping with my wife?

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

No Ghandi though, seems like he had more Jesus in him then Joan if you ask me

Gandhi was a racist. If you want to read him, you can see the book The Gandhi Nobody Knows (pgs 59 to 72) that outlines his attacks on black people.

 

[LilyM]

Is my feudal french lord sleeping with my wife?

You’re buying into a disgusting piece of propaganda there friend. You feudal French lord who lives on the same bit of land as you and your strong and armed serf buddies is much less likely to dare such a thing than an invading English or foreign soldier. Who no way nohow is going to be able to make a permanent base in France. In other words the foreigners have less fear of reprisals.

 

[smichhertz]

So would Nazi Germany be a legitimate authority?

Most theologians would say “no” as the government does not allow for proper distinction of justice. Or in other words, it was not an authority that properly enforced justice to an agreeable standard. Another reason is authorities that come to power through coups are typically not considered legitimate authorities.

What if the UK launched an invasion of Germany to stop the Holocaust, would Germans be justified to fight against the invaders?

Possibly, assuming they met the other criteria for a just war. It would certainly be a legitimate authority waging war. Similarly, we can justify our actions against Libya right now following the same logic.

 

[smichhertz]

Possibly, assuming they met the other criteria for a just war. It would certainly be a legitimate authority waging war. Similarly, we can justify our actions against Libya right now following the same logic.

Correction - when I made this response I thought you were asking if the UK would be justified, I see now you were asking if the Germans would be justified.

Most likely, Nazi Germany would not be justified as it does not have a legitimate authority. Also, their cause would not be just as they were acting out of defense of the holocaust, which would not be a just reason.

Sorry about that.

 

[Myqyl]

Maybe the OP was originally thinking along these lines, as I have wondered about this myself: what implications are there/ how does God view it when Christians must fight and kill other Christians in war or another situation when they fight on both sides/ wear different uniforms?(like WW2)

Honestly, that is a question only God can answer, but if I were to guess, He’d not be any happier about it then when ANYONE goes to war with ANYONE else. Be it Christians and Muslims, Jews and Muslims Christians and Atheists or Atheists and Atheists…

I imagine God prefers we all live in Peace and someday, when His Will is Done, we will

God bless

 

[lucky4075]

Myqyl
Re: Why is Joan of Arc a Saint if she killed English Christians?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucky4075
Maybe the OP was originally thinking along these lines, as I have wondered about this myself: what implications are there/ how does God view it when Christians must fight and kill other Christians in war or another situation when they fight on both sides/ wear different uniforms?(like WW2)
Honestly, that is a question only God can answer, but if I were to guess, He’d not be any happier about it then when ANYONE goes to war with ANYONE else. Be it Christians and Muslims, Jews and Muslims Christians and Atheists or Atheists and Atheists…

I imagine God prefers we all live in Peace and someday, when His Will is Done, we will

God bless

I guess that makes sense, but do you get what I am asking? All Christians are members of Gods kingdom, so we can in good conscience fight against other Christians?
Im not a pacifist or military hater, I myself am contemplating joining the US Coast Guard, this is just something I have been wondering about.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Why? Whether she killed them by hand or by leading her army, why do we revere her? Wouldnt non-violent protest (like Ghandi) be more in line with God’s Blessed are the peacemakers rule?

I’ve wondered the same thing myself from time to time. But I suppose I’d end up pointing to a Biblical precedent like King David. He had plenty of blood on his hands, but he was also God’s man, and the fact is that he lived in the times he did.

It’s all very well taking a 20th century viewpoint and quoting policies like “non-violence” by the likes of Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King. But the only reason they could do so was due to two factors, neither of which operated in St. Joan’s or King David’s times.

The first was that there was a largely sympathetic home crowd in England and the USA, already conditioned by centuries of Christian culture, who felt the Indians should get independence, and the American negroes should get a fair go.

And the other was that they had the luxury of a large, world wide media, which graphically displayed the brutality that the oppressors brought to bear.

On a similar note, I’m sometimes bemused by those who think that praying Christians brought the Berlin Wall down. They forget the US and the West spent billions of dollars and fought several proxy wars to contain the Soviet Union. In the end, its own inertia brought it down. I remember my old pastor commenting that he had a book by an American who predicted (accurately) ten years before it happened that the Soviet Union would collapse, and gave a fairly accurate estimate of the time. It had as much to do with its own people’s unhappiness as anything else.

Sometimes Christians have to get their hands dirty. It’s what Dietrich Bonhoeffer would have called “The Cost of Discipleship”.

 

[Myqyl]

I guess that makes sense, but do you get what I am asking? All Christians are members of Gods kingdom, so we can in good conscience fight against other Christians?
Im not a pacifist or military hater, I myself am contemplating joining the US Coast Guard, this is just something I have been wondering about.

God has no issue with us defending ourselves and others that are not capable of defending themselves. No where in Scripture have I seen anything to say that would be a bad thing.

I believe (and can be very wrong) that “Aggression” is a bad thing regardless of the religion of the aggressor and victim… “Defense” is a good thing regardless of the religions involved.

But that’s just me

God bless

 

[duneman]

Actually sainthood is not DECIDED by anyone on Earth. God made Saint Joan de Arc a saint. The Church just recognized that fact. Joan is a Saint because God admitted her into Heaven.

Why did God make her a Saint? You’ll have to ask Him…

God bless

[sign] wow, good line!![/sign]