Why is masturbation a sin?

[jas84173]

I struggle with chastity. I feel like by doing as the Church teaches is a burden and doesn’t make me any happier, thus why do I have avoid something which humanity has taken part in for millennia? What is the harm of it? Why does the Church have such an issue with something that is so harmless? It’s not like I am harming anyone by taking part in it. And it’s a burden I have to say at confession nearly everytime when I know I will do it again. Why does the Church have these rules which we are supposed to feel bad about doing when it really is just a normal part of life? Seriously, who hasn’t done it? I don’t want any criticism, because I may be a sinner but I really can think of far worse things people can do than masturbation.

 

[Trident_H]

You’ve got a few good questions here. I like that. I’m glad when someone comes along and asks pretty basic things. Things everyone has to deal with especially.

Well ok. So let me try to give you a couple of answers and see how they spin.

First? Why is it a sin.

Well it’s a sin because of all the reasons you’ve probably been told already. It’s a strike against intimacy. It’s self-pleasure for pleasure’s own sake. It’s using your body in a way that only suits you and not the one who designed it. Etc.

But also? It’s a tool for learning self-control.

I mean your reasons for giving in are pretty understandable: “Everybody does it” “It’s hard to not do it” “It’s not making me happy to stop” “Why is it a big deal?”

But think about any other set of things you could chose to do or not to make yourself feel ‘good’ for a short time. But which in the longer view will make you a worse person instead of better.

I mean any ‘chore’ fits the arguments you laid out. Yet if we always gave in and did whatever we wanted what kind of world would we live in? What sort of life would we lead? What sort of catch would we be to anyone else? I mean who would do the laundry?

Look I know it’s hard. I know it’s a struggle. And I know it’s maddening at times. I mean I’m not exactly coming at you from the angle of someone who’s mastered all the tricks and is now pure and simple. But what I do know is struggle is supposed to be hard. Otherwise there’s nothing special about overcoming it. And struggle is what we’re supposed to do while we’re here. We’re supposed to be getting stronger and fleeter. We’re supposed to be reaching for hard things and checking them off our list like a good Spartan.

No one wins the ultimate prize by being a slouch. No one comes in first on the marathon of life by lying down at the starting line. So I hear that it’s hard? But I also know that hard work is what’s at stake here. That’s the value that’s being aimed at squarely.

And besides. Confessing this sin every week or whatever is a good way to stay humble too.

So there’s that.

How that helps?

Peace.

-Trident

 

[1neophyte]

I struggle with chastity. I feel like by doing as the Church teaches is a burden and doesn’t make me any happier, thus why do I have avoid something which humanity has taken part in for millennia? What is the harm of it? Why does the Church have such an issue with something that is so harmless? It’s not like I am harming anyone by taking part in it. And it’s a burden I have to say at confession nearly everytime when I know I will do it again. Why does the Church have these rules which we are supposed to feel bad about doing when it really is just a normal part of life? Seriously, who hasn’t done it? I don’t want any criticism, because I may be a sinner but I really can think of far worse things people can do than masturbation.

Why do you think that the length of time which humanity has done any particular thing has any bearing on whether it is right or wrong? Why do you think your subjective view of happiness has any bearing on what is right or wrong? Have you considered the possibility that harm can occur without you perceiving it? Or is reality limited by the scope of your perspective at any given moment?

Who has more authority to decide what constitutes a normal part of life, you or God? Is it your sincere belief that if every human being has done a particular thing, it becomes the right thing to do? Or even a “harmless” thing to do? For example, if I asked the question, “Who hasn’t defecated into a diaper?”, would that be a sufficient reason for us all to continue doing it as opposed to bothering with indoor plumbing?

I could think of far worse things than punching you in the face. For instance, stabbing you or maybe shooting you with a gun. If you want to do something (thing #1), and you can think of something worse you are capable of doing (thing #2), does that mean thing #1 is acceptable because at least you’re not doing thing #2? Do you sincerely believe this is a wise way to approach life choices?

To address your very first sentence, is it your wish to go through your life without struggling? Do you believe that God is calling you to a struggle-free life?

Ponder all of these questions before you explore the reasoning behind Church teaching on any subject. It will make the teachings much easier to understand.

 

[Muzhik]

I struggle with chastity. I feel like by doing as the Church teaches is a burden and doesn’t make me any happier, thus why do I have avoid something which humanity has taken part in for millennia? What is the harm of it? Why does the Church have such an issue with something that is so harmless? It’s not like I am harming anyone by taking part in it. And it’s a burden I have to say at confession nearly everytime when I know I will do it again. Why does the Church have these rules which we are supposed to feel bad about doing when it really is just a normal part of life? Seriously, who hasn’t done it? I don’t want any criticism, because I may be a sinner but I really can think of far worse things people can do than masturbation.

Have you ever heard of visualization? The first experiments were done decades ago (50’s?) Some grad student got 30 undergrads to act as test subjects for this study. First, they all did free throws to see how good they were. The first group of 10 students were assigned the task of practicing free throws for 30 minutes a day, five days a week. The second group (the control subjects) did math problems for the same period of time. The third group of students were assigned to go to the basketball court and pretend to throw free throws for 30 minutes each day. They were to imagine holding the ball, dribbling it, throwing it, etc.

At the end of 8 weeks, they were all tested on how well they had improved doing free throws. The first group had the greatest amount of improvement. The second group had no improvement. To everyone’ surprise, the third group that just imagined throwing the ball had a level of improvement almost as large as the group who actually practiced throwing the ball. This became known as “visualization”.

Masturbation is a very powerful and intense form of visualization. I will wager your fantasies while masturbating involve some form of “using” your partner. In effect, you are training yourself for how you will treat your partner after marriage. It’s why Jesus said, “If you look at a woman in lust you have already sinned against her.”

 

[ineedofmercy]

I used to tell myself this when I first discovered it was sinful

I still struggle with it now

It’s a rejection of God’s intended purpose and a form a self love

And to me it isn’t harmless for many reasons

• it’s sinful
• it causes anxiety and awkwardness around actual girls
• it can cause medical issues
• and since you know it to be sin you will feel guilt and fear after you do it

I used to tell myself this because frankly I was looking for a loophole or a way out of having to overcome my addiction

I know my life will be better when I finally get good and defeating the temptations

Don’t lose hope
Don’t try to justify it
Just try to stay strong and tell God you will start your journey to get better
He will help you but you have to trust and listen

 

[Lucretius]

Most people will tell you, and you might know from your own experiences, that true happiness isn’t merely doing whatever you want to at the time, because our emotional life is normally such that what we emotionally want doesn’t correspond to what truly actualizes our full potential, fulfill the very desire. Over time, we are left unfulfilled and unsatisfied, with various bad habits that make it hard to motivate us to do what we really will, even to the point of conflicting with our will, forcing us to indulge in something we know is unsatisfying and unfulfilling and fruitless and wrong.

The is because true happiness is found in a cultivated emotional life, one that doesn’t enslave the will to habits that it isn’t powerful enough to resist, and rather works with the will in unity towards the object that by nature will actually fulfill the desire, completely actualizing its full potential and satisfying it. In other words, true human happiness, true human flourishing, is found in self-mastery, striking a balance and harmony between our long term thinking, reflective side with our short term, emotional and passionate side. Through certain habits of thinking, actions, and approach we call virtues, what our emotions perceive to be good for us is synchronized to what is actually good for us as conceived by our rational minds reflecting on our passions and the end they are naturally inclined towards, so that we can, ironically, eventually live to do whatever we want to at the time, but without the issues mentioned above leaving us unfulfilled, enslaved, and fragmented within ourselves. Developing virtue is hard work, but after our work is complete (which might not be in this life), we are back to living in the earthly paradise, living in Eden. After virtue, we can simply “love and do as we will,” as St. Augustine says.

I think you can intuitively see that true happiness is found in being free to “say no” to our sexual desires, right? That inner freedom: the freedom of the will to do what you want, instead of being forced to do whatever you can to quiet a strong desire -be it for food, drink, sex, clothes, etc.- Masturbation is a very pleasurable act, and forming a habit of it makes it harder to resist the urge to do it. You’ve already noticed this yourself. How can we be free to do what we really want to do when we have to do this? How can I say I’m free when this urge -one that kind of has a mind of its own- controls me? Aren’t I just a slave to it? A slave to sin? Sure, the spirit might be willing, but the flesh is weak.

The thing about masturbation though is not only is it addicting, it is ultimately unsatisfying and infertile. This is more noticeable when a habit of it is made over time. Masturbation aims our sexual inclinations towards an act that doesn’t actually fulfill it. Sure, the act might satisfy the passion in the moment, like how junk food might shut our hunger up for a while, but it doesn’t do so in the long term. This is because masturbation isn’t the proper object of our sexual inclinations: what we actually want sexually is unity with and selfless giving towards a spouse, a unity that has the potential to create even a person. Masterbation simply isn’t that, and a habit of masturbation forms our emotions against what they naturally tend towards, the object of their fulfillment and completion, their full actualization. Masturbation tends to make us approach sexuality as obtaining pleasure and vanity from another person, to use them as an instrument rather than as a person whom you should love as yourself. It also makes you approach sexuality as something sterile; it makes you prefer not to have children, despite the procreation and raising of children being the completion and fulfillment, the full potential, of our sexuality. A bad habit of masturbation can even make intercourse less pleasurable!

How can we be completed, to flourish, to be fulfilled, when we are forming our sexual emotions against what lifetimes of experience and the very nature of our sexuality indicates fulfills them? How can we be satisfied when we form bad habits that motive against our fulfillment?

Masturbation isn’t as much an issue between people; its real harm is in how it tends to affect your own self, your own inner life, and how it essentially tends to position our sexual emotions to control us and our actions rather than allow yourself to control yourself and your actions, as well as leave us acting against our own fulfilment.

Masturbation then is inherently in conflict with us having control over our selves: an interior life that is rectified, whole, and free. And without mastery over all of our selves, we simply are not free to love God and our neighbor and receive them, the true aim and fulfillment of our will and emotions, and can only do so with a part of our soul rather than the whole of it. Because it acts directly against true human flourishing, and true charity, the act of masturbation is considered a mortal sin, as all mortal sins are in direct conflict with human happiness and charity.

Christi pax.

 

[thistle]

I struggle with chastity. I feel like by doing as the Church teaches is a burden and doesn’t make me any happier, thus why do I have avoid something which humanity has taken part in for millennia? What is the harm of it? Why does the Church have such an issue with something that is so harmless? It’s not like I am harming anyone by taking part in it. And it’s a burden I have to say at confession nearly everytime when I know I will do it again. Why does the Church have these rules which we are supposed to feel bad about doing when it really is just a normal part of life? Seriously, who hasn’t done it? I don’t want any criticism, because I may be a sinner but I really can think of far worse things people can do than masturbation.

CCC 2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

 

[esieffe]

I unfortunately, discovered this sin at a very young age. Before I knew it was bad, I would feel guilty about it. No one had given me even the slightest inclination that this was harmful in any way, in fact I had no idea what it was, or that it even had a name, yet there was the “guilt.” I think this guilt speaks volumes about the act.

MB quickly becomes a focus, a highlight for our day, especially if you grow up in a dysfunctional household and are left to your own devices most of the time. To get to my room, you had to make a U-turn at the top of the stairs, a left, and then down a long hallway. My parents fought quite a bit, and I just kept out of everyone’s way. It was the shot of endorphins that I was after. It is so true to say that this is a gateway sin.

Like most drugs, take heroin for example, the death threshold remains the same, but the tolerance level climbs. This is why overdosing is so common. You start off innocently with MB, and then you escalate into progressively higher demands of porn and sexual acts in order to maintain the needed push. It is a recipe for disaster, and the ultimate disaster of losing our soul by the time lust and Satan is ready to cash in our chips!

There is good news though. Chastity is not the impossible goal that it seems like. If you are an aspiring rock climber, and you decide Mt. Everest should be your first climb you are doomed to failure. Like any other goal, we have to work at it in manageable portions.

Satan wants you to punish yourself after a fall. He wants you to give up. He wants you to lament the fact that you have to confess the same sin over and over. This fight is life long. It takes time and is made up of many small battles, never give up, that is the key. If this method fails, try something new. Keep going, don’t despair. God will give you the graces to help, even after failure, you just have to pick up and start again.

 

[Wesrock]

I may say more later, but I’ll just add it’s not some arbitrary rule the Church has imposed. The Church’s moral teaching is entirely targeted at “healing the sick” and at helping the faithful prepare themselves for God and to avoid the things that lead us away from God.

 

[bquinnan]

I struggle with chastity. I feel like by doing as the Church teaches is a burden and doesn’t make me any happier, thus why do I have avoid something which humanity has taken part in for millennia? What is the harm of it? Why does the Church have such an issue with something that is so harmless? It’s not like I am harming anyone by taking part in it. And it’s a burden I have to say at confession nearly everytime when I know I will do it again. Why does the Church have these rules which we are supposed to feel bad about doing when it really is just a normal part of life? Seriously, who hasn’t done it? I don’t want any criticism, because I may be a sinner but I really can think of far worse things people can do than masturbation.

We have lost a sense of the sacred in our culture today. When certain things are ordained for specific, special purposes, it is often wrong to use them for something less, as that might cause us to lose respect for the true purpose of those things. For example, I wouldn’t use a Bible as a doorstop. I wouldn’t use an American flag as a beach towel. I see those things as deserving of respect that such actions would undermine.

Human sexuality is one of those special, sacred things. Masturbation undermines the purpose of that sexuality, however, by taking something that was meant to be unitive and procreative, and stripping it of those qualities to reduce it to physical pleasure.

God’s first command to humanity was to “be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it.” (Genesis 1:28) Through the marital act, husbands and wives participate in fulfilling this first command. We participate in God’s creative process, allowing Him to bring forth new life created in His image through the spousal bond. We see throughout scripture that there are consequences (often retribution) for treating the sacred as ordinary, including the marital act. Our bodies, and especially our sexuality, are sacred, and we must always treat them with the respect they deserve.

 

[Sky_River]

We have lost a sense of the sacred in our culture today. When certain things are ordained for specific, special purposes, it is often wrong to use them for something less, as that might cause us to lose respect for the true purpose of those things. For example, I wouldn’t use a Bible as a doorstop. I wouldn’t use an American flag as a beach towel. I see those things as deserving of respect that such actions would undermine.

Human sexuality is one of those special, sacred things. Masturbation undermines the purpose of that sexuality, however, by taking something that was meant to be unitive and procreative, and stripping it of those qualities to reduce it to physical pleasure.

God’s first command to humanity was to “be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it.” (Genesis 1:28) Through the marital act, husbands and wives participate in fulfilling this first command. We participate in God’s creative process, allowing Him to bring forth new life created in His image through the spousal bond. We see throughout scripture that there are consequences (often retribution) for treating the sacred as ordinary, including the marital act. Our bodies, and especially our sexuality, are sacred, and we must always treat them with the respect they deserve.

What does it mean to call sex sacred-inviolable?

 

[drac16]

I don’t believe that it’s harmless. If you’re burning with lust and go masturbate, you’re not curing your problem-- you’re just making it worse. The more you masturbate, the more your body will produce semen, so you’ll have a stronger biological desire to masturbate. For guys, a desire to masturbate can be so intense that it almost feels like a compulsion. I don’t know how it is for girls, but I do know how it is for men (because I went through it).

Since I got saved two and a half months ago, the Lord has rescued me from pornography and masturbation. I haven’t viewed pornography in two and a half months and I haven’t masturbated in three weeks. When I was lost and dead in sin, I never would have thought that that would be possible. The same God that rescued me can rescue you. It’s a matter of faith-- we have to walk by faith. You have to be confident in the fact that those sexual impulses can be subdued to the point where you are victorious over them.

I suspect that unbelief is the main reason why some professing christians try to justify masturbation. They don’t believe that their sexual desires can be subdued to the point where they are manageable. Those desires won’t go away completely, but you can move forward and make progress. Spend more time in prayer and fasting. Do something to replace the habit of masturbating. Talk to the Lord about this and see what He would have you do.

 

[happy_new_conv]

It just seems so arbitrary… I can be obedient to any rule or law, and deny (or at least never tire of resisting) any desire or passion, if only I trust the reasoning behind the teaching.

But I have yet to find that one perfectly solid argument - the one argument that makes all others unnecessary. To say, “It’s a sin” isn’t enough for me - all other sins have foundations in natural law - so clearly seen… the spiritual or temporary consequences are so clear.

Obviously murder is wrong. Obviously pornography is wrong. Obviously stealing or lying is wrong. Obviously any 4 year old will be appalled and horrified if you were to ever explain abortion to them.

But this issue… is just feels so arbitrary. And I’m NOT saying this as someone only looking to justify my lifestyle: Since converting over 4 years ago, I’ve been astonishingly successful at cutting this activity out. It’s been very, very, very hard - yes, but I am obedient to the church, and I would never take communion if I’d done this.

But: it’s pure obedience. I have no good argument.

“It’s a sin!” Why? Where does it say this? When was it decided? If I pop a pimple as a function of clearer mental or physical health, is this a sin? Certainly it’s vain. Why not let the body go through its natural process and heal the pimple on its own? Why rush it? Couldn’t this cause an infection?

“It’s spilling seed!” Every ounce of sperm your body produces is going to pass through the urethra and out of the body, one way or the other. Is mixing it with urine a more dignified end? I don’t get it.

“It’s a slippery slope!” Sure, but so are all good things. I don’t drink alcohol - how many of you do? Have you ever been drunk? I never have been. How many of you are out of physical shape? You are? What a rotten display of gluttony and ingratitude for the perfect body you were given! I have 6% body fat and can run a 5:55 mile. I am very strong. I eat only organic food, and I only buy from people who grow the food. I don’t support economic slavery. Do you shop at walmart? Buy things made in China? What is your excuse? Why do you get a pass? How can you hurt so many people with your selfish money-saving consumer choices? EVERYTHING we do is a slippery slope.

“Denying it builds self-control.” I agree, and as someone who likes challenges, I accept this one. And I’ll deny this to my dying breath if that’s what it takes (while failing many times, I’m sure). But almost everything I do builds self-control. Many of you do none of the things I do. Why is this particular issue so objectively bad? I don’t know. I haven’t heard an answer yet.

I still feel like a 16 year old kid. These urges haven’t changed at all. My wife, after all these kids, has no energy left. No drive, no desire. She is the only one who has the cure to this disease I feel I have, and she can only help me a few times per month, because of NFP and her own low drive, and all the time the kids occupy. This is a challenge.

Why is this particular issue so objectively bad? I don’t know. I haven’t heard an answer yet.

 

[davidv]

It just seems so arbitrary… I can be obedient to any rule or law, and deny (or at least never tire of resisting) any desire or passion, if only I trust the reasoning behind the teaching.

But I have yet to find that one perfectly solid argument - the one argument that makes all others unnecessary. To say, “It’s a sin” isn’t enough for me - all other sins have foundations in natural law - so clearly seen… the spiritual or temporary consequences are so clear.

Obviously murder is wrong. Obviously pornography is wrong. Obviously stealing or lying is wrong. Obviously any 4 year old will be appalled and horrified if you were to ever explain abortion to them.

But this issue… is just feels so arbitrary. And I’m NOT saying this as someone only looking to justify my lifestyle: Since converting over 4 years ago, I’ve been astonishingly successful at cutting this activity out. It’s been very, very, very hard - yes, but I am obedient to the church, and I would never take communion if I’d done this.

But: it’s pure obedience. I have no good argument.

“It’s a sin!” Why? Where does it say this? When was it decided? If I pop a pimple as a function of clearer mental or physical health, is this a sin? Certainly it’s vain. Why not let the body go through its natural process and heal the pimple on its own? Why rush it? Couldn’t this cause an infection?

“It’s spilling seed!” Every ounce of sperm your body produces is going to pass through the urethra and out of the body, one way or the other. Is mixing it with urine a more dignified end? I don’t get it.

“It’s a slippery slope!” Sure, but so are all good things. I don’t drink alcohol - how many of you do? Have you ever been drunk? I never have been. How many of you are out of physical shape? You are? What a rotten display of gluttony and ingratitude for the perfect body you were given! I have 6% body fat and can run a 5:55 mile. I am very strong. I eat only organic food, and I only buy from people who grow the food. I don’t support economic slavery. Do you shop at walmart? Buy things made in China? What is your excuse? Why do you get a pass? How can you hurt so many people with your selfish money-saving consumer choices? EVERYTHING we do is a slippery slope.

“Denying it builds self-control.” I agree, and as someone who likes challenges, I accept this one. And I’ll deny this to my dying breath if that’s what it takes (while failing many times, I’m sure). But almost everything I do builds self-control. Many of you do none of the things I do. Why is this particular issue so objectively bad? I don’t know. I haven’t heard an answer yet.

I still feel like a 16 year old kid. These urges haven’t changed at all. My wife, after all these kids, has no energy left. No drive, no desire. She is the only one who has the cure to this disease I feel I have, and she can only help me a few times per month, because of NFP and her own low drive, and all the time the kids occupy. This is a challenge.

Why is this particular issue so objectively bad? I don’t know. I haven’t heard an answer yet.

Why are the four things you list above “obviously” wrong?

If you can answer that objectively, then you will have the answer for why masturbation is wrong.

 

[happy_new_conv]

Why are the four things you list above “obviously” wrong?

If you can answer that objectively, then you will have the answer for why masturbation is wrong.

I’m still not seeing it. Murder, Pornography, Stealing, Lying, and Abortion are wrong for many reasons - all grounded in natural law, and they each clearly violent the elementary concept of “do unto others as you’d have them do unto you.”

Do I want to be killed or stolen from or exploited? No.

Do I want to be masturbated? As a matter of fact, I do. My wife and I used to do all of these things together before we converted, and it was one of the most bonding, grounding, and pleasurable parts of our marriage. We’re fine without it - Catholic sexual morality allows for plenty of bonding as a couple - but, it was excellent before, and I really, really, really miss it. It feels like a part of our marriage has been gutted, and replaced by nothing.

Yes, I think mortification is good.

Yes, I think it’s possible to have too much of a good thing.

But I’m just not seeing any natural law foundation to all of Catholic teaching on sex. Some of it seems like “erring on the safe side”. Well, I wish they would err on the safe side of food sourcing, physical health, alcohol, etc etc.

Another argument I hear: “It’s shameful. Would you do it in public? No? Then it’s bad.”

This is a red herring - a terrible argument. I also wouldn’t have Catholic sex with my wife in public. I wouldn’t go #2 in public, or #1 for that matter. I wouldn’t pop a pimple in public. Is it a sin to poop? A sin to pop a pimple? I don’t think so.

Another argument: “It’s hard to masturbate without lusting.” For who? For some, it’s very hard to drink without getting drunk, or to drink without carousing or becoming violent. Should the Church then ban all alcohol? Of course not, the Church wisely says “This is a potentially dangerous substance. Don’t overdo it. Use it to learn control and moderation.”

Well, I feel that this is probably the category that masturbation belongs to, but at very least, oral sex or manual sex from our spouses. If we’re using these things to avoid pregnancy - then that’s bad. If we’re using them to avoid intimacy - that’s bad (but I think they increase intimacy, or at least they did for us). But aren’t all bad things disordering of goods?

I don’t know… I’d love to hear an argument so solid that it would stop my heart from missing these things I used to do with my wife, and stop me from resenting what I see as a very arbitrarily painful portion of Catholic teaching.

NOW: I understand that this is a very disadvantageous position to argue from, because I’m advocating for something pleasureful, and that always looks bad. Well, I’d love to see most Catholics drop the Big Macs, cheap Walmart goods, and alcohol induced distractions from life before assuming that anyone seeking truth on these teachings is a hedonist.

 

[Lucretius]

Do I want to be masturbated? As a matter of fact, I do. My wife and I used to do all of these things together before we converted, and it was one of the most bonding, grounding, and pleasurable parts of our marriage. We’re fine without it - Catholic sexual morality allows for plenty of bonding as a couple - but, it was excellent before, and I really, really, really miss it. It feels like a part of our marriage has been gutted, and replaced by nothing.

Stimulating each other isn’t wrong in itself, it is immoral only when it isn’t a means towards intercourse. This is because the aim of sexual stimulation is sexual unity, that is, intercourse. Masturbation that doesn’t end in intercourse is what is contrary to the proper object of the sexual appetite, as determined by its nature, and erotic love in general. Does that make more sense? The point about getting aroused is to end up becoming one with your wife

Christi pax.

 

[davidv]

I’m still not seeing it. Murder, Pornography, Stealing, Lying, and Abortion are wrong for many reasons - all grounded in natural law, and they each clearly violent the elementary concept of “do unto others as you’d have them do unto you.”

Do I want to be killed or stolen from or exploited? No.

Do I want to be masturbated? As a matter of fact, I do. My wife and I used to do all of these things together before we converted, and it was one of the most bonding, grounding, and pleasurable parts of our marriage. We’re fine without it - Catholic sexual morality allows for plenty of bonding as a couple - but, it was excellent before, and I really, really, really miss it. It feels like a part of our marriage has been gutted, and replaced by nothing.

Yes, I think mortification is good.

Yes, I think it’s possible to have too much of a good thing.

But I’m just not seeing any natural law foundation to all of Catholic teaching on sex. Some of it seems like “erring on the safe side”. Well, I wish they would err on the safe side of food sourcing, physical health, alcohol, etc etc.

Another argument I hear: “It’s shameful. Would you do it in public? No? Then it’s bad.”

This is a red herring - a terrible argument. I also wouldn’t have Catholic sex with my wife in public. I wouldn’t go #2 in public, or #1 for that matter. I wouldn’t pop a pimple in public. Is it a sin to poop? A sin to pop a pimple? I don’t think so.

Another argument: “It’s hard to masturbate without lusting.” For who? For some, it’s very hard to drink without getting drunk, or to drink without carousing or becoming violent. Should the Church then ban all alcohol? Of course not, the Church wisely says “This is a potentially dangerous substance. Don’t overdo it. Use it to learn control and moderation.”

Well, I feel that this is probably the category that masturbation belongs to, but at very least, oral sex or manual sex from our spouses. If we’re using these things to avoid pregnancy - then that’s bad. If we’re using them to avoid intimacy - that’s bad (but I think they increase intimacy, or at least they did for us). But aren’t all bad things disordering of goods?

I don’t know… I’d love to hear an argument so solid that it would stop my heart from missing these things I used to do with my wife, and stop me from resenting what I see as a very arbitrarily painful portion of Catholic teaching.

NOW: I understand that this is a very disadvantageous position to argue from, because I’m advocating for something pleasureful, and that always looks bad. Well, I’d love to see most Catholics drop the Big Macs, cheap Walmart goods, and alcohol induced distractions from life before assuming that anyone seeking truth on these teachings is a hedonist.

So, why are you dealing with the red herrings. Use the real thing, which is grounded in natural law.

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139

 

[happy_new_conv]

Stimulating each other isn’t wrong in itself, it is immoral only when it isn’t a means towards intercourse. This is because the aim of sexual stimulation is sexual unity, that is, intercourse. Masturbation that doesn’t end in intercourse is what is contrary to the proper object of the sexual appetite, as determined by its nature, and erotic love in general. Does that make more sense? The point about getting aroused is to end up becoming one with your wife

Christi pax.

I thank you for your reply… but no… it doesn’t satisfy this hole I’m feeling in regards to the teaching. Reason being: Our sex was a lot more unitive (to me) before. Also, see my next paragraph in response to David:

So, why are you dealing with the red herrings. Use the real thing, which is grounded in natural law.

David, thanks for helping me work through this. Even with this quote from the Catechism, I see a gaping hole of rhetoric.

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139

Consider this, David: The purpose of the stomach is nourishment, right? Kreeft tells us: hunger is evidence for the existence of food. Very good! And yet, no Catholic argues that we should forbid the consumption of the opposite of nourishment (a chemical and literal poison) into it: alcohol.

In its most pure form, 200 proof Vodka. Is a single shot of 200 proof Vodka a mortal sin? No. And yet, this represents a massive disordering of the purpose of the stomach. Alcohol is contrary to the purpose of nourishment. And yet, we know a glass of wine is a good thing (usually). We also know that to eat Cake when we could eat Quinoa is an absolutely abhorrent choice from a nourishment perspective.

BUT: We know that the stomach is more than a means of nourishment - it’s a means of getting things into the blood stream. It’s okay to put some alcoholic toxin into the blood stream sometimes. It’s okay to put a sugar-bomb in it some time.

**We know that the stomach has TWO PURPOSES: nourishment, AND pleasure. And that EVEN WHEN WE’RE NOURISHED - it’s okay to put more into it (wine or dessert after a meal) to give us pleasure.

We believe that’s okay. **

Okay, well, then we move forward:

The leg is for walking. The leg is for running; transportation.

But: it feels good when my wife touches my leg. It feels good when I touch my leg. But it’s only for walking: should she not touch it? Should I not touch it?

You see, we don’t argue this stuff. It’s “common sense”. It seems natural for my wife and I to give each other pleasure. Well, masturbation is also natural. My 2.5 year old daughter goes to town every time you strap her into her car seat, and it goes the whole 9 yards. It’s horrifying, but what do we do? It’s a mathematical equation to her and to many: I do this, it feels good. Then I’m going to keep doing it.

Why do I not feel the need to grab her car seat and throw it into the garbage, and hold her up in the air so that she can’t do this? If my child were committing any other mortal sin, or were beginning to form habits that would lead to the propensity to do things that would cost them their immortal souls, I would feel the urge to stop them.

But in this case, my natural law grounding sets off no alarm bells.

“The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.”

Isn’t it possible that an organ has two purposes? Procreation and pleasure? Isn’t it possible that within a marriage, and provided childbirth isn’t being delayed, it’s okay to satisfy one of these purposes but not the other?

It certainly is the case with the leg. It certainly is the case with the stomach. Why would God set us up for failure so blatantly by making these organs the source of so much physical pleasure, if pleasure had nothing to do with the purpose of these organs?

And why is a wife and mother of 5 lovingly touching her husband in a way that causes ejaculation treated the same way in our philosophy as a single 38 year old male who doesn’t leave his house, and incessantly goes at it to the point where he has no social life or spouse?

“For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of the sexual relationship…”

Well, what about within it?

Isn’t it possible that the Church is wrong on this issue?

 

[davidv]

I thank you for your reply… but no… it doesn’t satisfy this hole I’m feeling in regards to the teaching. Reason being: Our sex was a lot more before. Also, see my next paragraph in response to David:

David, thanks for helping me work through this. Even with this quote from the Catechism, I see a gaping hole of rhetoric.

Consider this, David: The purpose of the stomach is nourishment, right? Kreeft tells us: hunger is evidence for the existence of food. Very good! And yet, no Catholic argues that we should forbid the consumption of the opposite of nourishment (a chemical and literal poison) into it: alcohol.

In its most pure form, 200 proof Vodka. Is a single shot of 200 proof Vodka a mortal sin? No. And yet, this represents a massive disordering of the purpose of the stomach. Alcohol is contrary to the purpose of nourishment. And yet, we know a glass of wine is a good thing (usually). We also know that to eat Cake when we could eat Quinoa is an absolutely abhorrent choice from a nourishment perspective.

BUT: We know that the stomach is more than a means of nourishment - it’s a means of getting things into the blood stream. It’s okay to put some alcoholic toxin into the blood stream sometimes. It’s okay to put a sugar-bomb in it some time.

Okay, well, then we move forward:

The leg is for walking. The leg is for running; transportation.

But: it feels good when my wife touches my leg. It feels good when I touch my leg. But it’s only for walking: should she not touch it? Should I not touch it?

You see, we don’t argue this stuff. It’s “common sense”. It seems natural for my wife and I to give each other pleasure. Well, masturbation is also natural. My 2.5 year old daughter goes to town every time you strap her into her car seat, and it goes the whole 9 yards. It’s horrifying, but what do we do? It’s a mathematical equation to her and to many: I do this, it feels good. Then I’m going to keep doing it.

Why do I not feel the need to grab her car seat and throw it into the garbage, and hold her up in the air so that she can’t do this? If my child were committing any other mortal sin, or were beginning to form habits that would lead to the propensity to do things that would cost them their immortal souls, I would feel the urge to stop them.

But in this case, my natural law grounding sets off no alarm bells.

“The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.”

Isn’t it possible that an organ has two purposes? Procreation and pleasure? Isn’t it possible that within a marriage, and provided childbirth isn’t being delayed, it’s okay to satisfy one of these purposes but not the other?

It certainly is the case with the leg. It certainly is the case with the stomach. Why would God set us up for failure so blatantly by making these organs the source of so much physical pleasure, if pleasure had nothing to do with the purpose of these organs?

And why is a wife and mother of 5 lovingly touching her husband in a way that causes ejaculation treated the same way in our philosophy as a single 38 year old male who doesn’t leave his house, and incessantly goes at it to the point where he has no social life or spouse?

“For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of the sexual relationship…”

Well, what about within it?

Isn’t it possible that the Church is wrong on this issue?

No it is not possible that the Church is wrong on this issue.

Seems to me the stomach thing is another red herring. What role does the stomach play in the sharing of God’s creative power in creating new life?

There also seems to be a lot of judgement based on feelings.

What are the details of natural law that apply to human sexuality?

 

[happy_new_conv]

I just edited to add a bit more to answer your question:

**We know that the stomach has TWO PURPOSES: nourishment, AND pleasure. And that EVEN WHEN WE’RE NOURISHED - it’s okay to put more into it (wine or dessert after a meal) to give us pleasure.

We believe that’s okay. **

(The direct statement then is: if that business with the stomach is true, why can we not use our sexual organs with our spouses for pleasure when the miracle of procreation is fulfilled and satiated within our marriage?

How is it impossible that the church is wrong? Didn’t the church allow oral contraceptives for a little while, then realize it was wrong? Didn’t we also call out as heretics anyone who said that the sun was the center of the solar system for a while? I’m pretty sure the church can be wrong about something.