Why is Mormonism the big discussion topic in this forum?

[LDNCatholic]

The reason is simple: both faiths claim truth. Now for the catholics their truth is based on Peter and the rock. For mormons their truth is based on the restoration. The restoration is a threat for catholics on this forum because it would imply that their belief in Peter and the rock is fractured. Thus, they have to prove mormonism wrong. Of course, no one has proven the mormon church false but it does make certain catholics on this section of the forum feel good to repeat it over and over again.

Now if the mormon church was just a protestant sect, no catholic would feel threatened and the subject of mormonism would be like the threads on Jehovah’s Witnessess or Seventh Day Adventists…few and far in between.

No, as it was pointed out before, the Watchtower people and SDAs tend to be hit and runs. Also many of them post very disrespectful things and get banned, unlike the Mormons (in general) who show somewhat more respect. So there are more Mormons and ex Mormons on the boards.

Many many restorationist groups claim to be the one true church. Doesn’t make them right.

 

[Jerusha]

I would be pleased to meet you and count you as a friend then, and for now as a kind internet friend. No doubt God is blessing you in your life, and no doubt it will continue to be so.

Your acknowledgment of my right to reject Mormonism based on what I have seen of it plays a large part in my respect for you. You are a dissenter within it, and you know that to be so.

 

[CJ_Nick]

Because Catholics are deeply troubled, worried, petrified, fearful of Mormonism (because it is true), and that is all they want to talk about.

zerinus

Hello Zerinus,

To suggest that Catholics are deeply troubled, worried, petrified, and fearful of Mormonism ( because it is true ) is very misleading ( coming from a LDS ) at best and more directly, very insulting to me, a Catholic that you spoke for.

I can assure you that this Catholic is none of your above suggestions.

Peace,
CJ

 

[NewSeeker]

Hello Zerinus,

To suggest that Catholics are deeply troubled, worried, petrified, and fearful of Mormonism ( because it is true ) is very misleading ( coming from a LDS ) at best and more directly, very insulting to me, a Catholic that you spoke for.

I can assure you that this Catholic is none of your above suggestions.

Peace,
CJ

Zerinus is one of those old school Mormons who are rather shrill in their apologetics and can sometimes be offputing in their zeal for their faith that only Mormonism is true. Fortunately, this type of Mormon is becoming less common over time as many church members have responded to Gordon B. Hinckley’s (the last president of the LDS church, recently deceased) call for greater tolerance and ecumenism. Don’t think most Mormons are like Zerinus. They are not. Most of the Mormons in my life are like Parker and Scriptorian, who are far less smug and more respectful in their interactions with the Catholics in this forum.

NS

 

[zerinus]

Hello Zerinus,

To suggest that Catholics are deeply troubled, worried, petrified, and fearful of Mormonism ( because it is true ) is very misleading ( coming from a LDS ) at best and more directly, very insulting to me, a Catholic that you spoke for.

I was merely responding to the OP. If you know of a better explanation as to why there are so many Mormon (often anti-Mormon) threads running in here, started by Catholics (often anti-Mirmon Cathilics), why don’t you tell us what that is, instead of snapping back at me?

zerinus

 

[ParkerD]

Your acknowledgment of my right to reject Mormonism based on what I have seen of it plays a large part in my respect for you. You are a dissenter within it, and you know that to be so.

Jerusha,
I suppose you have detected that I wished Brigham Young hadn’t spoken without thinking so often, or was mis-quoted. I also have thought JFS needed to not speculate in any of his writing, because he was perceived as an authority.

But my point has always been that true doctrine is either in the scriptures or comes from the united words of the First Presidency and the Council of Twelve Apostles.

One of my very good long-time personal friends is the executive secretary of the Quorum of the Twelve, who taught me in Seminary years ago. I had told Paul that I would email this friend about the Gospel Essentials manual, which I did and he recently called. We had a nice visit. He noted the passage could be understood either way. He also said that these brethren are very busy, so their review of some printed manuals may be cursory rather than word by word.

But one of the foundations of our faith and belief is personal revelation. The Holy Ghost confirms truth so that we can personally attest we “know” because of that witness from the Holy Ghost within our soul. I am comfortable being at odds with some of the things Brigham Young said and JFS wrote because of that very principle–I didn’t have to take their word for it, ever. I could find out for myself. No blind followership here.

Again, just wanted to clarify. Thanks for your friendship, Jerusha. One of my favorite recent-find scriptural gems is Jeremiah 9:24. I appreciate the Lord’s lovingkindness to all of us, all over the world.

 

[ricko]

Parker, when you said I was wrong I guess you were referring to my post #11.

Which of the quotes from your church leaders or teachings did I make a mistake in?

Would you like to take post 11 item by item and explain to all what is wrong with it?

I don’t claim to be an expert on the LDS church, anymore than you are an expert on Catholicism, but I am learning and I try not to post any wrong information about LDS.

So, again, what is incorrect about the quotes from your church leaders that I posted?

 

[NewSeeker]

I am comfortable being at odds with some of the things Brigham Young said

That is one of the things that always troubled me, and is one a reason (among many) for my decision to leave the church. I cannot reconcile in my mind how a prophet can teach false doctrine, declare that false doctrine to be from God, and remain a prophet. Prophets aren’t allowed to have opinions when they are speaking as prophets. They speak God’s words alone when they speak in His name or they are not prophets.

NS

 

[JohnVIII]

Because it is the one religion that apparently most Catholics here feel threatened by.

I’m really surprised to find out that Catholics are “threatened” by Mormons! What’s so threatening about them?

-JohnVIII

 

[ParkerD]

It’s funny that you would say Mormons are Christian as (1) they believe they are the only Christians. Here is what the leaders of that “Christian” church have to say about us and others:
(2) “Orthodox Christian views of God are pagan rather than Christian” (Mormon Doctrine of Deity, B. H. Roberts [General Authority], 116).
(3) “The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church, is the great corrupt, ecclesiastical power, represented by great Babylon” (Orson Pratt, Writings of an Apostle, Orson Pratt, n. 6, 84).
(4) “All the priests who adhere to the sectarian [Christian] religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels” (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith, ed. Vol. 1, n. 4, 60).
(5) [Under the heading, “Church of the Devil,” Apostle Bruce R. McConkie lists:] “The Roman Catholic Church specifically—singled out, set apart, described, and designated as being ‘most abominable above all other churches’ (I Ne. 13:5)” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, 129).
(6) As the Mormon church has taught since that time, God the Father was once a man who was created by his God, was born and lived on another earth, learned and lived the “Mormon gospel,” died, and was eventually resurrected and made God over this universe. As such, he retains forever his flesh-and-bones body.
(7) Since they teach that God is flesh and bones they do not accept what the Christian bible says about God:
John 4:24: “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” And how do you define “spirit”? Listen to Christ in Luke 24:39: “A spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.”

(8) Now the Mormons will not believe what the Christian bible says if it conflicts with their beliefs.
(9) The Catholic Church does not recognize Mormon baptism yet it does recognize the baptisms of countless other churches as valid.
(10)It takes more than just using the name of Jesus Christ to be a Christian. Their Jesus is not the Jesus of our Christian bible. They believe in multiple Gods on other worlds but only worship the God of our world.

Ricko,
OK, here goes (thanks for asking):

1. Of course Mormons don’t believe they are the only Christians. I question where you came up with that. I could randomly search any LDS General Conference and find quotes that would demonstrate the opposite of what you said. Believers in Christ are Christian; we do hope that they will be Christians in deed as well as membership, as sincere followers of Christ. (That doesn’t mean they need to be LDS–not at all. Yet, I can see how you might have taken some comments as a put-down or perhaps overzealous missionaries have disregarded the genuinity of your faith in Christ, and that was improper if it happened.)
2. B.H. Roberts lived way before my time, so I have never read his writings, but what was the context? I disagree with that statement. You presented it as though it were current, and it is not–very contrary to current teachings, nor was that statement ever doctrinal. I doubt that you would say anything any Catholic theologian or pope ever said or wrote down described your exact personal beliefs. I’ve read some of the online Catholic encyclopedia here, and there are long entries to explain different views of different people.
3. Orson Pratt was a contemporary of Joseph Smith, and happened to like to write. I wouldn’t give two cents for anything he wrote. He was writing his opinions. He was excited about his new-found religion, and liked to write, but just because he was an Apostle (who actually became disaffected for a while, then returned), does not make him an authority on every subject he chose to write about. Another apostle, Orson F Whitney, said God’s work is being done by many good people in many different religions. That is more in line with current LDS teachings of the leaders.
4. That “quote” is inconsistent with the scriptures (D & C) as well as other quotes of Joseph Smith. You can’t take an isolated quote (often a transcription by scribes) and assume you have JS’ thinking on a given question. Read D & C 76 and read my long entry before this one. What counts are the actions and what is in the heart of each person, whether they are a priest or anyone else, as to whether they suffer the torment described in Rev. 21:8 (the lake of fire and brimstone).
5. You would know that BRM removed that sentence from his later edition. He was writing his own opinion. He was not presenting the position of the church, and he so said. Babylon or its church is: false ideologies that lead away from belief in Christ the Son of God, or that subjugate or oppress or cause death among humanity.
6. The teaching of the King Follett Sermon is that the Son followed the Father in all things. That would mean the Father was perfect when He lived on an earth. He may or may not have been a Savior. Since your teaching is that God the Father became the Son when He came to earth, you may not acknowledge it but you are saying that God received a mortal body, and was resurrected as the Son of God, then returned to Heaven.
7. Your two quotes answer your own assertion. Christ had flesh and bones when He was resurrected. None of us can worship God truthfully without worshipping Him in spirit and in truth. The first passage does not say “a Spirit” as the second passage says. I am a spirit being–I have a spirit within me, a living entity that is a part of my soul.
8. We teach the Bible far more literally than any religion I have read about. Both the Book of John and Revelation are prime examples, as well as the books of Isaiah, Hosea, Malachi, Daniel, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah plus all of the New Testament plus Genesis.
9. If I were a Catholic leader, I would know that priesthood authority is given by the laying on of hands and cannot be assumed by anyone in any other way, so I would not authorize any baptism by anyone who didn’t have the priesthood authority that was originally given by Jesus Christ Himself.
10. We believe that Christ created more than this single world, and is the Savior of more people than those of this world. We believe Christ wants us to be perfect, even as He is perfect. We believe He wants us to overcome, as John the Revelator taught, and become “sons of God” and sit down with Christ on His throne and inherit all things. (Rev. 21:7, 3:21). We believe God the Father is the Supreme Omnipotent Ruler of the universe. He loves all of His children, and believes in us and our potential to be “perfect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect,” but only through Christ’s redemptive blood and continual example, encouragement, love, and the power of His faith.

 

[ParkerD]

NewSeeker,
That has been a stumbling block for many. If you study the life of BY, you learn about a man who had strong self-belief. His calling as a prophet was to advance the purposes of God for the particular circumstance the Saints were in when he served. He served with all his heart.

Only one set of his writings was ever canonized. All else may or may not have been doctrinally purely correct. God is going to let people stumble who do not seek personal revelation to guide their understanding of any doctrine or any scriptural text. This life has as one purpose, helping us find out if we could “do as Abraham did” by recognizing God’s voice just as he recognized that voice–the voice of the Spirit, of personal revelation. How else could God trust us to be joint-heirs with Christ? He couldn’t and he wouldn’t. There have got to be all sorts of sifting processes.

I love that one of the newly called First Quorum of Seventy is from Kenya. What a shining example of faith! The SL Tribune had a great article about his life story recently.

You are fine where you are, unless you need to reconcile some bad feelings from the past. I assume you have found peace, contentment, and joy in your current life. If so, you’re where you need to be. If not, I assume you’ll keep searching for those qualities. Isaiah 55 and Isaiah 61 contain absolutely true promises…

 

[why_me]

I’m really surprised to find out that Catholics are “threatened” by Mormons! What’s so threatening about them?

-JohnVIII

The Catholic Church traces its truth claim back to Peter and the rock. Mormons trace their truth claims to the apostacy and the need for a restoration of the true church of Christ. Each cancels the other out…it just becomes a matter of who is right. Thus the threat to the catholic church.

 

[JohnVIII]

ricko;5098683[Under the heading:

“The Roman Catholic Church specifically—singled out, set apart, described, and designated as being ‘most abominable above all other churches’ (I Ne. 13:5)” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, 129).

1. You would know that BRM removed that sentence from his later edition. He was writing his own opinion. He was not presenting the position of the church, and he so said. Babylon or its church is: false ideologies that lead away from belief in Christ the Son of God, or that subjugate or oppress or cause death among humanity.

I’m going to take the liberty of paraphrasing a passage from the book of Mormon. If you dispute this passage in the book of Mormon I guess I’ll have to try to find the reference and quote it exactly, but here’s the paraphrase:

There are save two churches only, one is the church of God and the other is the church of the devil. And whosoever does not belong to the church of God belongs to the church of the devil.

 

[JohnVIII]

The Catholic Church traces its truth claim back to Peter and the rock. Mormons trace their truth claims to the apostacy and the need for a restoration of the true church of Christ. Each cancels the other out…it just becomes a matter of who is right. Thus the threat to the catholic church.

You say that you are both “LDS and Catholic”. So do you cancel your own faith out? Upon the rock of Peter the church was built, “and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”. If there were a total apostasy from the truth then the gates of hell did prevail. Maybe we should take a poll. Do most people think that the Roman Catholic Church went into total apostasy, or do most people think that the Mormon Church went into total apostasy? If more people think that it is the Mormon church that went into total apostasy, it would make more sense to believe that the Mormon Church is threatened by the Catholic Church, not the other way around.

 

[why_me]

You say that you are both “LDS and Catholic”. So do you cancel your own faith out? Upon the rock of Peter the church was built, “and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”. If there were a total apostasy from the truth then the gates of hell did prevail. Maybe we should take a poll. Do most people think that the Roman Catholic Church went into total apostasy, or do most people think that the Mormon Church went into total apostasy? If more people think that it is the Mormon church that went into total apostasy, it would make more sense to believe that the Mormon Church is threatened by the Catholic Church, not the other way around.

You asked a question and I answered it. I did not give you my own opinion. I gave you the opinion of catholics and mormons. My own opinion is: It not important to me which church has the truth. If catholicism works for someone, fine be a catholic. If mormonism works for someone, fine be a mormon. Both faiths can lead to holiness if applied to practice. We will all find out the truth when we die.

 

[Jerusha]

You are fine where you are, unless you need to reconcile some bad feelings from the past. I assume you have found peace, contentment, and joy in your current life.

And part of the process is free expression of one’s experiences, beliefs, feelings and objections. Essential to that process is access to infomation.

LDS have the right, although we may think it strange, to choose among the contradictions. They each choose what is right for themselves. Some choose what is wrong, according to our doctrines. Their church does not do the winnowing of contradictory teachings for them. They, instead, winnow out the people, and, often, it is the wrong people.

 

[reggieM]

I’ve been a life-long Catholic and my interest in Mormonism started when I discovered some things about that religion that I never knew (I live about 20 miles from the Mormon “holy land” of Palmyra New York). For whatever reason, Mormonism was always presented as if it like another Protestant sect – basically some good-willed people who read the Bible and made up some rituals. The esoteric origins and meanings of the religion are not well-known at all.

I think, with the use of the internet over the past 10 years, some of the incredible (literally) history and beliefs of Mormonism have become mainstream.

When I first discovered the history of Joseph Smith, the golden plates, the “glass looking” translations and treasure hunting, the history of polygamy, the doctrines on Christ as a perfected man, planet Kolob, the battle of Cumorah, the freemasonic rituals and much more – I was shocked and amazed. Why did nobody know about these things? I have told Catholic friends about these aspects of Mormonism and in every single case, they had the same reaction that I did – they burst out laughing. (I’m sorry that might sound demeaning, but it’s the truth. I laughed so hard when I heard the obscure teachings of Mormonism that I couldn’t stop reading about them for weeks).

I have never seen such a ridiculous tapestry of lies, cover-ups, manipulations and fraud presented as if it is a serious religion in my life. I think nothing on earth exists like this – even pagan African religions have more of a semblance of authenticity, or at least can be excused by the igorance of the people.

But after seeing the absurd and comical nature of Mormonism, and then noticing that none of this changed the beliefs of Mormons themselves (almost no argument could convince them of the facts) I began to feel sorry and really ponder this mystery.

What could make these sincere Mormons recognize how wrong Joseph Smith’s religion really is? How many refutations of Mormon claims would it take for someone to admit the errors? Is there a single argument that Mormons will immediately accept?

People love mysteries. It makes life interesting. I think this is one reason why Catholics here on CAF pursue Mormonism so much. It’s fascinating to see how anyone could defend the LDS teachings. How is this possible?

Plus, refuting Mormonism is perhaps the easiest task any apologist could undertake. I think some of the more shrewd LDS leaders have known that and tried to cover-up the history of the Mormon church.

So how is it that something which is so simple to refute, still retains passionate believers? Someone mentioned “hard-headedness” and it’s like that. It’s perhaps like an addiction to a drug. There’s no good reason for it, but it retains a grip on the person.

 

[ParkerD]

I’m going to take the liberty of paraphrasing a passage from the book of Mormon. If you dispute this passage in the book of Mormon I guess I’ll have to try to find the reference and quote it exactly, but here’s the paraphrase:

There are save two churches only, one is the church of God and the other is the church of the devil. And whosoever does not belong to the church of God belongs to the church of the devil.

JohnVIII,
You have a good memory. That is a very important verse. Add to that the verses in Moroni 7 that say as follows:
10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.
11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.
12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.
13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

What counts is what is in the heart of each person, as I said before. Each person decides which “church” they belong to, and they show it by what they do–whether they follow the light of Christ by doing good things and by not judging harshly. This is very important. I have no idea whether every Catholic in the world is following the light of Christ, but I think many, perhaps most, perhaps nearly all are, so the other verse you cited would say that Nephi is saying they “belong to the church of the Lamb of God.” Each one decides by how they live.

Please understand this. Peace to you.

 

[ParkerD]

ReggieM,
It’s OK that you have your opinion. It is an unstudied one. It is what one can expect from casual observers of Mormonism. Have a good day.

 

[Jerusha]

LDS have the right, although we may think it strange, to choose among the contradictions. They each choose what is right for themselves.

I Nephi 14:10 And he saith unto me, Behold, there is, save it be, two churches: the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the Devil; wherefore. whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God, belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. Therefore, there are two churches WITHIN Mormonism, because the LDS would rather winnow people than teachings.