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I
inJESUS
Guest
Everything about Jesus has been a mystery.
If He wanted to correct anything about His death, He would have explained this to His disciples after He rose, in the NT, in the first century, to eyewitnesses, hitting the iron while hot, not to a non-disciple, non eyewitness, 600 years laters which lead into a huge confusion into billions of people
that’s if you are talking about the same God.
I
inJESUS
Guest
yea, it was ready to be revealed after Jesus started His ministry, to His own disciples…not 600 years later.You said it yourself, revealed later when it was ready to be revealed.
I
inJESUS
Guest
inJESUS;3186694:
makes more sense than saying " it appeared he died “from crucifixion” and blaming people for not “realizing it” because it cant appear otherwise unless our creator does not know how we think.It certainly does not make any sense to say that the Jews did not crucify him, but it just appeared to them so. Many Muslims interpreted this scripture to mean that Allah changed the likeness of another man to Jesus’ likeness so the Jews would crucify him thinking they were crucifying Jesus while Allah rescued Jesus by raising him to heaven.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Why assume that when we don’t even know where Mary came from?If He wanted to correct anything about His death, He would have explained this to His disciples after He rose, in the NT, in the first century, to eyewitnesses, hitting the iron while hot, not to a non-disciple, non eyewitness, 600 years laters which lead into a huge confusion into billions of people
that’s if you are talking about the same God.
I
inJESUS
Guest
because this should have been common knowledge.Why assume that when we don’t even know where Mary came from?
Dying crucified yet "not because it " was not. He rose, He met His disciples, He knew what they were thinking about His death, He explained things. He said nothing of what Muhammad is saying.
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Selene
Guest
If Allah really wanted to save Jesus, it would be wrong timing to save him when Jesus was already nailed to the cross. If Allah did that, then it was wrong of Allah to accuse the Jews of being ignorant or without knowledge when it was Allah who deceived them in the first place. God is about Truth. He is not deceit.I’m using that analogy for what people perceived with Jesus on the cross.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
It should be common knowledge which tribe Mary came from too so we could know if Jesus really descended from David since of course that’s who Messiah is. All we have are a Bible reference she was cousin to Elizabeth a Levite, and in the Quran a sister of Aaron a Levite. Neither of Judah.because this should have been common knowledge.
Dying crucified yet "not because it " was not. He rose, He met His disciples, He knew what they were thinking about His death, He explained things. He said nothing of what Muhammad is saying.
Maybe they did know but someone kept that information out, especially if they wanted to further demonize Romans and Jews.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Why didn’t God just make him Messiah right there so we could be spared 2000 years of war, death, and sin waiting for him? Who knows.If Allah really wanted to save Jesus, it would be wrong timing to save him when Jesus was already nailed to the cross. If Allah did that, then it was wrong of Allah to accuse the Jews of being ignorant or without knowledge when it was Allah who deceived them in the first place. God is about Truth. He is not deceit.
Satan works extra hard to keep Christians and Muslims apart because they both don’t deny Jesus as Messiah, I’m pretty sure of that.
I
inJESUS
Guest
FoA, we are adressing the Quranic passage and its theological implications. You are raising off-topic questions.
I
inJESUS
Guest
it appeared that crucifixion killed him? what should have appeared then other than what they saw? makes no sense because they can’t possibly have seen otherwise, yet the author of the Quran blames them “for not having knowledge”.Originally Posted by Selene
and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so
who differed whether it was crucifixion or “just before it”? none to my knowledge.Quote:
and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it;
,Quote:
they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture
conjecture? they follow what they saw and they saw a crucified, died person.
allah did not say :Quote:
and they killed him not for sure.Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
and they killed him not for sure.Nay! Allah took his life; and Allah is Mighty, Wise
it say he was not dead but raised.
this should put us on the track again.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
I think the simplest answer is that they knew God took Jesus but that information just didn’t make it in to the NT for whatever reason. As with who Mary really is.FoA, we are adressing the Quranic passage and its theological implications. You are raising off-topic questions.
I
inJESUS
Guest
only to reveal it 600 years later, accusing Jews and Christian for not knowing?I think the simplest answer is that they knew God took Jesus but that information just didn’t make it in to the NT for whatever reason.
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Selene
Guest
My Muslim friend, Truth is not two opposite things. There is only one Truth. Yes, both Muslims and Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah and that we both worship the God of Abraham. However, you say that it was God who killed Jesus and not man. This is where we differ. Your point of view makes God look like a sinner, and from what we Catholics know - God is not a sinner.Why didn’t God just make him Messiah right there so we could be spared 2000 years of war, death, and sin waiting for him? Who knows.
Satan works extra hard to keep Christians and Muslims apart because they both don’t deny Jesus as Messiah, I’m pretty sure of that.
According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, “God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously knows how to derive good from it.” (CCC #311). Our Catechism further states, “From the greatest moral evil ever committed - the rejection and murder of God’s only Son, caused by the sins of all men - God by his grace, that ‘abounded all the more’ brought the greatest good: the glorification of Christ and our redemption. But for all that, evil never becomes a good.” (CCC #312).
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De_Maria
Guest
if Jesus accepted to be put on the cross, and to die on the cross, knowing that all people will understand that He died crucified, why would then Allah say He did not die because of crucifixion? Jesus had the power to lay it down, if He did lay it down but “not out of crucifixion” then this is deceit since He knows that people will understand He died crucified.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Quran 19:33-34 Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.only to reveal it 600 years later, accusing Jews and Christian for not knowing?
Born, died, resurrected.
It says they disputed about it. Some like me probably expected God to take Jesus so he wouldn’t be shamed by being killed by the cross, and conquered by men since the Isaiah 42:4 prophecy suggests Messiah can’t be failed or discouraged, presumably by men. If God did it then God was just taking him home.
You know besides the deity problem Jews reject Jesus mainly because he was killed by men before he finished the job of Messiah.
So if God took Jesus before it killed him – hanged him to death by the cross as it may be – it may also be a sign of this, Jesus of course not being cursed.
Deuteronomy 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Deuteronomy 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
Plus not having to have his legs broken to fulfill the other prophecy, if he was taken before the need for it.
I
inJESUS
Guest
Quran 19:33-34 Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.
Born, died, resurrected.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
You are kind of glossing over all the prophecy which is saying Jesus couldn’t be killed by men, couldn’t be killed by a tree, and couldn’t have his legs broken. All good reasons for God to take his spirit home before the cross forced it out of his body.clear words denied by Muslims.too bad.
no one disputed about whether it was crucifixion or “just before it”…not even the apocrypha mentions this. So how can Allah blame them for what they saw, a dead crucified person?
he wouldn’t be shamed by being put on the cross in the first place, spit on and flogged?
“do not fear those who can kill the body”.
Paul adressed this . Jesus was already being put on a cross…
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De_Maria
Guest
We believe Jesus took the curse upon Himself in order to redeem us from that curse…Quran 19:33-34 Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.
Born, died, resurrected.
It says they disputed about it. Some like me probably expected God to take Jesus so he wouldn’t be shamed by being killed by the cross, and conquered by men since the Isaiah 42:4 prophecy suggests Messiah can’t be failed or discouraged, presumably by men. If God did it then God was just taking him home.
You know besides the deity problem Jews reject Jesus mainly because he was killed by men before he finished the job of Messiah.
So if God took Jesus before it killed him – hanged him to death by the cross as it may be – it may also be a sign of this, Jesus of course not being cursed.
Deuteronomy 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
Deuteronomy 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
Plus not having to have his legs broken to fulfill the other prophecy, if he was taken before the need for it.
Galatians 3
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written: Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
**1009 **Death is transformed by Christ. Jesus, the Son of God, also himself suffered the death that is part of the human condition. Yet, despite his anguish as he faced death, he accepted it in an act of complete and free submission to his Father’s will. The obedience of Jesus has transformed the curse of death into a blessing.
**580 **The perfect fulfillment of the Law could be the work of none but the divine legislator, born subject to the Law in the person of the Son. In Jesus, the Law no longer appears engraved on tables of stone but “upon the heart” of the Servant who becomes “a covenant to the people”, because he will “faithfully bring forth justice”. Jesus fulfills the Law to the point of taking upon himself “the curse of the Law” incurred by those who do not “abide by the things written in the book of the Law, and do them”, for his death took place to redeem them “from the transgressions under the first covenant”.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I
inJESUS
Guest
You are kind of glossing over all the prophecy which is saying Jesus couldn’t be killed by men,
He couldn’t be killed by anyone or anything if it is not His wish…if He wishes, He could and He wished.
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