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MelanieAnne
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I would add that it’s tedious as well. 
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inJESUS
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Deusdonat
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Prayer is talking to God with mind and heart, and often with the voice. It is a response to God’s invitation to seek him. There are several types of prayer:
blessing (Eph 1:3)
adoration (Ps 95:6)
petition (Col 4:12)
asking forgiveness (Lk 18:13)
intercession (1 Tm 2:1)
thanksgiving (1 Thes 5:18)
praise (Eph 3:20), (2626-2643)
Not all prayer is worship. But all prayer is communication with God.
blessing (Eph 1:3)
adoration (Ps 95:6)
petition (Col 4:12)
asking forgiveness (Lk 18:13)
intercession (1 Tm 2:1)
thanksgiving (1 Thes 5:18)
praise (Eph 3:20), (2626-2643)
Not all prayer is worship. But all prayer is communication with God.
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FaithofAbraham
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Oh come on now, you know I listen and respond to most every point head on.
First of anything, I believe Jesus is the son of David and Bathsheba resurrected into Mary, so that belief alone will always void Trinity for me.
But pretending that wasn’t the case, I see from Hebrews, Revelation, etc. that Jesus has a God that he prays to and is subordinate to. None of the arguments against that have been convincing – like prayer isn’t really worship, Jesus was only pretending to pray to be an example for us, etc.
So if Jesus has a God which is the Father God of us all, and if Jesus is a God himself, then that is two Gods for me, which is against the command to have no other gods but God.
So I will always see Jesus as a separate man, the High Priest who makes atonement for us with God, not with himself as God too.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
There are two guys here, God and the mediator Jesus. No matter how hard you try to mash them together for Trinity, it just isn’t convincing.
So yeah we should just drop it since now we all know where we stand and that’s where it stays, at least for me.
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inJESUS
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Reuben_J
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You do not seem to take notice on what has been explained. You continue with your personal discourse with your brand of interpretation of the Biblical verses; which you perverted.
This is a classic example of you perverting the Bible!
It’s your personal opinion and that makes you a shirhk because no Muslims believe that.
Maybe you would like to start a new Islamic sect with your brand of Islamic teaching? We already have the Ahmadis …
We recognize there is different definition of prayer and worship in Christianity and Islamic context. But at least you should listen to our explanation on what a prayer and worship are. You have not listened, have you?
We have no problem with this. If you had listened to the explanation you would know that this is not the problem.
You are taking the typical Muslim trolls line of argument actually. Don’t blame me for stereotyping you because you just fall into that category.
For example, they create criteria to determine if Jesus is God by saying where does it say that Jesus said ‘worship me’ knowing full well the specific phrase is not found in the Bible for obvious reason. But at the same time conveniently turn deaf ears to other verses and episodes that tell us of the divinity of Jesus. Of course it’s all over the Bible that worship is meant for God alone and that means for Jesus.
Now the Golden Globe Academy Award winner is talking! Thanks for reminding us that this thread is about Mohammad, Mr. Jack Nicholson. Oh dear!
You have not prove anything to debunk that Jesus in not divine. The teaching on the Trinity is very clear. It is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons. The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God”.
The analogy of H2O that can be in the form of liquid, ice and vapour is quite close for a good mental picture to describe the nature of the Triune God.
The divinity of the three persons is simply stated in the Bible and your various questions about them being so are only the inquisitive thought of the human mind. Only you cannot put God’s thought to be the same like yours.
Too bad, God does not think like us, Mr. Thomas Edison.
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Deusdonat
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I really appreciate all the good apologetics going on around here. But wasn’t the original discussion about “why is Muhammad the Greatest (prophet)”? Have we all (Muslims on this board included) agreed that indeed he was not? Can we get a consensus here now?
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MelanieAnne
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Muhammad was not the greatest prophet.
I believe it has been referenced more than once in this thread that Jesus Himself stated that John the Baptist was the greatest prophet. But in any event, since the comparisons have primarily been between Jesus and Muhammad, clearly Muhammad comes up short.
Any Muslim answer will most likely be different.
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FaithofAbraham
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Regarding my last exchange with inJESUS:
So I replied John 13:18-19 refers to Psalms 41:9, not Isaiah 43:10-1.inJESUS said:
*Psalms 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me. ME AS IN JESUS, THE GUY WHO IS BETRAYED
John 13:18-19 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he. HE AS IN THE GUY WHO IS BETRAYED BY HIS FRIEND*
Do you agree with me that John 13:18-19 refers to Psalms 41:9?
Sure I have, it’s still goofy to say prayer is not a form of worship, are you still saying that?
You are taking the typical position of those who cry troll when their bad ideas fall flat.
Don’t blame me if you aren’t convincing, it is how it is.
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Deusdonat
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Actually, I think the moderators might call what you are doing trolling right now. You are trying to run this thread off topic, as the Trinity is not the topic, but rather whether or not Mohammed us the greatest prophet.
Is it possible for you to stay on that topic? If not, maybe start another thread addressing your questions concerning the Trinity.
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FaithofAbraham
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The post I just replied to has this:
ME: " So yeah we should just drop it since now we all know where we stand and that’s where it stays, at least for me."
Reuben J: “Now the Golden Globe Academy Award winner is talking! Thanks for reminding us that this thread is about Mohammad, Mr. Jack Nicholson. Oh dear! You have not prove anything to debunk that Jesus in not divine.”
I said to DROP IT, yet Reuben challenged me again about divinity.
So gripe at him for trying to keep it off-topic.
Thanks.
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dolphinlove
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:banghead:
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planten
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**Jews were waiting for the Messiah. Were they waiting for a god?? Surely not.
You say that Jesus is Messiah. You say Jesus is God. Does it mean that the term Messiah is same as God?? Does a Messiah mean a god?? I hope not.
Because Jesus was your god and Muhammad is not a god then Muhammad cannot be greater than Jesus. But we Muslims do not agree that Jesus was God. And The Jews also do not believe so. What the christians are doing to us Muslims about Muhammad, the sme thing is being done to Jesus by the Jews. They believe that Jesus was a totally fake person.
But we Muslims believe that Jesus was a son of man and a man of God. We believe in Jesus and Mary and John the Baptist and Moses because the Quran has told us all about them. If Quran is false then we do not have to believe anything about Jesus at all.
I don’t mind if Jesus is greater. But to my knowledge Jesus likened himself to the lowest of the prophets i.e. Jonas. He gave his own example to that of the weak and poor messenger Jonas. But we Muslims believe that all Messengers are equal. We do not differentiate between any of the messengers. The Verse to that effect is 2:285 shown below:
[2:284] To Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth; and whether you disclose what is in your minds or keep it hidden, Allah will call you to account for it, then will He forgive whomsoever He pleases, and punish whomsoever He pleases; and Allah has the power to do all that He wills.
[2:285] This Messenger of Ours believes in that which has been revealed to him from his Lord, and so do the believers; all of them believe in Allah, and in His angels, and in His Books, and in His Messengers, saying, ‘We make no distinction between any of His Messengers;’ and they say, ‘We have heard and we are obedient. Our Lord, we implore Thy forgiveness, and to Thee is the returning.’
[2:286] Allah burdens not any soul beyond its capacity. It shall have the reward it earns, and it shall get the punishment it incurs. Our Lord, do not punish us if we forget or fall into error, and our Lord, lay not on us a responsibility as Thou didst lay upon those before us. Our Lord, burden us not with what we have not the strength to bear; and efface our sins, and grant us forgiveness, and have mercy on us; Thou art our Master; so help us against the disbelieving people.
**
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ralphinal
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For the record, FoA does not hold to the idea that Christians made Mary a goddess nor does he say that she is part of the Trinity. His main point has been that the Trinity is a form of arianism or polytheism. That is the nature of the debate.
Either way, it is important to this conversation. Please note what Planten posted. Christians are unique in that we believe that Jesus is God. Muslims do not. They consider Jesus a holy man of God, but not God. I think that that is the basis for this thread. If Jesus is not God, is he a better example of a holy man than Muhammid. Some would say that you should not make such comparisons, but it has been done.
What bothers me is that no matter what you call Jesus, God or prophet, he taught a different veiw of God than Muhammid. Jesus taught about God who wants to be our Father. Jesus taught us to pray for everyone and love each other. Jesus taught us to turn the other cheek, forgive our enemies and pray for those who hurt us. I have asked lots of times before, and I will continue to ask the question: WHY DID GOD CHANGE HIS MIND?
Either way, it is important to this conversation. Please note what Planten posted. Christians are unique in that we believe that Jesus is God. Muslims do not. They consider Jesus a holy man of God, but not God. I think that that is the basis for this thread. If Jesus is not God, is he a better example of a holy man than Muhammid. Some would say that you should not make such comparisons, but it has been done.
What bothers me is that no matter what you call Jesus, God or prophet, he taught a different veiw of God than Muhammid. Jesus taught about God who wants to be our Father. Jesus taught us to pray for everyone and love each other. Jesus taught us to turn the other cheek, forgive our enemies and pray for those who hurt us. I have asked lots of times before, and I will continue to ask the question: WHY DID GOD CHANGE HIS MIND?
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Valke2
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The whole thread is nonsense and was started by a Christian who was more interested in mocking Islam than in promoting discussion on the merits of any prophet. Since the OP is, IMO, contrary to the rules of the Forum, you can’t blame anyone for changing the topic.
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MelanieAnne
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I’m not going to go so far as to call the thread nonsense, but it appears to me to have become unproductive, so, as for myself, I am not going to read it anymore.
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FaithofAbraham
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To rip off from the movie Alexander:
Moses, Elijah, Mohammed, and the rest were all great prophets, but Jesus – as Prophet, High Priest, and King – is simply great.
Moses, Elijah, Mohammed, and the rest were all great prophets, but Jesus – as Prophet, High Priest, and King – is simply great.
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planten
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Your post even though correct, the last part is not understood. “Where or Why did God change His mind?” We Muslims do not feel that God ever changed his mind. In fact there are clear verses in the Quran stating that there will be no change in the ways of Allah.
[33:62] Such has been the way of Allah with those who passed away before, and never thou wilt find a change in the way of Allah.
[35:42] And they swore by Allah their strongest oaths, that if a Warner came to them, they would follow guidance better than any other people. But when a Warner did come to them, it only increased them in aversion,
[35:43] For, they sought exaltation in the earth and devised evil schemes. But the evil schemes encompass none but the authors thereof. Do they, then, look for anything other than Allah’s way of dealing with the people of old? But thou wilt never find any change in the way of Allah; nor wilt thou ever find any alteration in the way of Allah.
[35:44] Have they not travelled in the earth and seen how evil was the end of those who were before them? And they were stronger than these in power. And Allah is not such that anything in the heavens or the earth can frustrate His plans; verily, He is All-Knowing, All-Powerful.
[48:22] And if those who disbelieve should fight you, they would, certainly, turn their backs; then they would find neither protector nor helper.
[48:23] Such has ever been the law of Allah; and thou shalt not find any change in the law of Allah.
[48:24] And He it is Who withheld their hands from you and your hands from them in the valley of Mecca, after He had given you victory over them. And Allah sees all that you do.
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Renton405
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Jesus was also a prophet. But he was much more than just a prophet. He was the Son of God. he qualifies as all(prophet, messiah, Son of God)
You also have the problem of all the other prophets who existed from David to Malachi…It could have been any of them if it wasn’t directed at Christ…
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ralphinal
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Then why is “Abba” (translated as “Father” or more correctly “Daddy”) not a title for Allah in the Koran? Why did Muhammid not teach forgiveness for those who hurt you and prayer for those who hate you?
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