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dolphinlove
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Why do I get the feeling that planten and paarsurrey are one and the same?
I apologise in advance if I’m wrong.
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paarsurrey
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paarsurrey
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ralphinal
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I was about to say that Paar is a Ahmadi adn Planten is not. I am not sure which sect of Islam Planten is, but I know that it is not the same as Parr.
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Reuben_J
Guest
We don’t agree with Islamic belief that Jesus has to be the seed of someone. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God (note the capital S) that has no beginning and no end. He was there before the world began and will be forever.
‘Adopted’ is a language being used to denote that those who believe in Jesus are given the Holy Spirit that leads their inner being to understand that they are sons and daughters of God. We are nothing on our own. We are not worthy to be sons and daughters of God but by the belief that we have that we can be so. This conviction is made tangible by the power of the Holy Spirit which ‘restores’ and ‘sanctifies’ the believers so that they are accepted as sons and daughters of God.
The source of all this is of course Jesus. Believers who believe in Jesus are given the Holy Spirit. If Jesus is the Son of God, then for believers to be sons and daughters of God, they have to be ‘adopted’. Not everyone can be adopted but those who believe only. Jesus died for us and took unto himself all our transgressions so that we can be made right with God. With sins that separate us from God we will always be separated from God.
After being made right with God through believing we are one with God by becoming his sons and daughters. It is through the redeeming action of Jesus only that we can be the sons and daughters of God. Since we are not sons and daughters of God in the first place, then the only ways to be so is through adoption. To be qualified in being adopted is of course when Jesus allowed himself to be our brother. We are the brothers and the sisters of Jesus but not sons and daughters of God, therefore in order to be sons and daughters of God we need to be ‘adopted’.
How do we know now that we are adopted sons and daughters of God? It is by the power of the Holy Spirit. And who is the Holy Spirit? He proceeds from the Father and the Son. In other word, by believing we are sanctified by God to be His sons and daughters.
I hope I have made that very clear in a layman term.
Joseph was a righteous Jews from the line of David. He did not give birth to Jesus. He became the father ‘foster’ in this understanding] to fulfil human laws of marriage and children, and the promise of God.
You have all these in a wrong premise and thus unable to proceed to reasonable understanding of the theology.
Hope the above explanation helps.
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Reuben_J
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I think you err in the understanding of the Quran. Jesus is obviously not any other messenger in the Quran for sure. The Quran admits that he was a person (prophet) born of a virgin without a human father. The Quran also gives him the titles the Word Of God and the Word From God. No other prophets were given these titles except for Jesus; not even Mohammad. It is obvious that the Quran accords Jesus as someone special and not just ordinary prophet. The Quran may not elaborate and is deficient in its literature in what this speciality about Jesus was, but it certainly does not treat Jesus as ordinary.
Again, the seed thing is already addressed. We differ with Islam in this understanding. We do not believe that Jesus is the seed of any man alive or dead.
Christians know JESUS. Muslims do not know him despite your claim otherwise. Christians saw him died, buried and rose again. He ascended into heaven. Christians know Jesus; they have no problem with this knowledge.
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Reuben_J
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Yes it is different. Begotten not in human’s term but in God’s term. Language used is perhaps deficient and it will always be to some extent. Please note the difference when the Gospel writer used the capital S for ‘Son’, meaning Jesus is the only begotten Son.
The genealogy is presented to satisfy the prophecy and to satisfy human law of marriage and descendants.
Ultimately, one should know the mind of the authors of the Gospels and what they wanted to articulate. The tradition of the apostles knew all this and therefore interpreting the words of the Gospel need to be in the understanding of the purpose why the Gospels were written. We have what we called the Early Church Fathers, people who knew the Gospel writers and their successions, who guided us in explaining the message of the Gospels.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Mathew 3 is very clear in mentioning that Jesus is God’s son. No adoption is mentioned at all.
Psalm 68 is talking about the protective nature of God who will provide for the insignificance and the small ones in the society; those who are marginalized, helpless and oppressed. They will receive God’s providence by their obedience and by their faith. The providence can be here and now; and also in the hereafter.
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Valke2
Guest
Psalm 68 (Commentary provided by R. Alter and paraphrased by Valke2):
Let God arise, let His enemies scatter,
and let His foes flee before Him.
(This verse is a quotation of the Song of the Ark [Num. 35:10] with a change in verb tense. Some have thought this was a prayer that was siad when the ARk was carried into the Temple. But there’s no real evidence for this. Some scholars think this psalm is a collection of citations from older poems. But there’s little to support this as well.
As smoke disperses may they disperse,
as wax melts before fire,
may the wicked perish before God.
And may the righteous rejoice and exult before GOd, and be gladdened in joy.
Sin to god, humn His nae.
Pave the way for the Rider of Clouds,
for Yah is His name and exult before Him.
(“Pave the way” is generally translated “praise the way”, but "pave is more likely accurate [see isaiah 57:14, 62:10]. To pave as in pave or prepare a highway, goes nicely with the image of God as a celestial rider mounted onclouds sweeking down the earth.
Father of orphans and widows’ judge,
God in His holy abod.
God brings thelonely back to their homes,
sets free the captives in jubiliation.
But the wayward abide in parched land.
(the translation of “jubiliation” is no more than a guess. The Hebrew word appears no where else in Scripture. For all we know, it could have been a scribial error. [the word btw is kosharot].
God, when you sallied forth before YOur people,
when you strode through the Desert.
(Here we have the beginning of a report of God’s awesome military triumph. “sallied forth” means to lead an army.)
The earth shook,
the heavens, too, poured down before GOd.
Sinai iteslef before God, God of Israel.
A bountiful rain You shed, O God.
Your estate that had languished You made firm.
Your cohorts dwelled there,
You made it firm in YOur goodness, for the lwoly, O God.
(“You made it firm.” The reference is to “Your estate” in the previous verse. God is imagined striding through the desert by Mt. Sinai, these lines evoke the memory of victories in the Wilderness narrative – first over Egypt, then over Amalek, and later over the kingodos of Transjordan. Later in the Psalm, these victories blend in with other victories that are difficult to define)
The Master gives word –
the women who bear tidings are a great host:
(Presumably, the women announce the victory, but the verse itself is obscure).
“The kings of armies run away, run away,
and the mistress of the house shares out the spoils.”
(This is from the Song of deborah in Judges. There is is the canaanite women who – wrongly – imagine that their men will soon return from the battle with spoils to divide among the women.)
If you lie down among sheepfolds…
The wings of the dove are inlaid with silver,
and her pinions with precious gold.
(“If you lie down with sheepfolds.” A citation to the SOng of Deborah continues here. In Judges, this clause refers derisively to those tribes of Israel that stayed at home and did not join in the struggle against the Canaanites. We would expect some sort of admonitation or negative words to follow this language. It appears is if some words are missing here.
“The wings of the dove…” This is a beautiful line. Often quoted. But it is unlcear as to what it refers to. It could be a treasure bourght back by the victorious Israeli soldiers. It could aslo be a symbolic representation of glorious Israel.
(cont).
Let God arise, let His enemies scatter,
and let His foes flee before Him.
(This verse is a quotation of the Song of the Ark [Num. 35:10] with a change in verb tense. Some have thought this was a prayer that was siad when the ARk was carried into the Temple. But there’s no real evidence for this. Some scholars think this psalm is a collection of citations from older poems. But there’s little to support this as well.
As smoke disperses may they disperse,
as wax melts before fire,
may the wicked perish before God.
And may the righteous rejoice and exult before GOd, and be gladdened in joy.
Sin to god, humn His nae.
Pave the way for the Rider of Clouds,
for Yah is His name and exult before Him.
(“Pave the way” is generally translated “praise the way”, but "pave is more likely accurate [see isaiah 57:14, 62:10]. To pave as in pave or prepare a highway, goes nicely with the image of God as a celestial rider mounted onclouds sweeking down the earth.
Father of orphans and widows’ judge,
God in His holy abod.
God brings thelonely back to their homes,
sets free the captives in jubiliation.
But the wayward abide in parched land.
(the translation of “jubiliation” is no more than a guess. The Hebrew word appears no where else in Scripture. For all we know, it could have been a scribial error. [the word btw is kosharot].
God, when you sallied forth before YOur people,
when you strode through the Desert.
(Here we have the beginning of a report of God’s awesome military triumph. “sallied forth” means to lead an army.)
The earth shook,
the heavens, too, poured down before GOd.
Sinai iteslef before God, God of Israel.
A bountiful rain You shed, O God.
Your estate that had languished You made firm.
Your cohorts dwelled there,
You made it firm in YOur goodness, for the lwoly, O God.
(“You made it firm.” The reference is to “Your estate” in the previous verse. God is imagined striding through the desert by Mt. Sinai, these lines evoke the memory of victories in the Wilderness narrative – first over Egypt, then over Amalek, and later over the kingodos of Transjordan. Later in the Psalm, these victories blend in with other victories that are difficult to define)
The Master gives word –
the women who bear tidings are a great host:
(Presumably, the women announce the victory, but the verse itself is obscure).
“The kings of armies run away, run away,
and the mistress of the house shares out the spoils.”
(This is from the Song of deborah in Judges. There is is the canaanite women who – wrongly – imagine that their men will soon return from the battle with spoils to divide among the women.)
If you lie down among sheepfolds…
The wings of the dove are inlaid with silver,
and her pinions with precious gold.
(“If you lie down with sheepfolds.” A citation to the SOng of Deborah continues here. In Judges, this clause refers derisively to those tribes of Israel that stayed at home and did not join in the struggle against the Canaanites. We would expect some sort of admonitation or negative words to follow this language. It appears is if some words are missing here.
“The wings of the dove…” This is a beautiful line. Often quoted. But it is unlcear as to what it refers to. It could be a treasure bourght back by the victorious Israeli soldiers. It could aslo be a symbolic representation of glorious Israel.
(cont).
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Valke2
Guest
- When Shaddai scattered the kings there,
it snowed on Zalmon.
(weird to give a weather report here. Snow is fairly rare in Israel. Maybe it is remembered as part of the miraculous character of the victory). - Mountain of Goid, Mount Bashan,
crooked-ridged mountain, Mount Bashan. - Why do you leak, O crooked-ridged mountains,
the mountain God desired for His dwelling?
Yes, the Lord will abide there forever!
“the mountain God desired for his dwelling.” Other than this psalm, Mt. Bashan is not otherwise known as a dwelling place of GOd.)
- The chariots of God are myraids beyond count,
thousands of thousands.
The Master among them
– O, Sinai in holiness! - You went up to the heights, You took hold of your captives,
the wayward as well – So that Yah God would abide.
(THis evidently means that GOd trampled over His enemies to establish for Himself a firm earthly abode, but the verse is not altogether clear).
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Reuben_J
Guest
Thanks for giving us the full commentary on Ps 68.There are variety of commentators but nevertheless I think it’s a wonderful psalm about God’s deed to men.
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dolphinlove
Guest
Reuben, you are a very very patient person, God be with you!
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dolphinlove
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That was more of a ‘i dont think so’ type of smile, i know they are 2 different people, just look at the posts…
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Sure God’s Son but in what way – I think the way I said. Like this in the promise of Jesus the Messiah to David:
2 Samuel 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
2 Samuel 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
2 Samuel 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
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planten
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Mathew and Luke were careful about providing the geneology of Jesus lest his being be in doubt about whose son he was. All friends can see that these were not the words of God. These were the words of men that so and so begat so and so… That was necessary and required to prove the truth of some old prophecy and to satisfy the men… That was good of Mathew and Luke. Thanks to both of them for telling us where was Jesus hailing from.
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Reuben_J
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Reuben_J
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I was only replying to your post where you quote Mathew and Luke on this topic. Yes, they may be not God’s word for you, but I would like to thank you for giving me the oppurtunity to explain those words.
As for the meaning of their messages, this is what I was saying:
Ultimately, one should know the mind of the authors of the Gospels and what they wanted to articulate. The tradition of the apostles knew all this and therefore interpreting the words of the Gospel need to be in the understanding of the purpose why the Gospels were written. We have what we called the EARLY CHURCH FATHERS, people who knew the Gospel writers and their successions, who guided us in explaining the message of the Gospels.
God bless.
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Reuben_J
Guest
A man’s kingdom cannot be forever. Man is mortal. Eternal is for the divine.
See Mk 1:11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
Once we establish that Jesus is the Son of God which is corroborated by the fact that he was born of the Holy Spirit through Virgin Mary, we must understand this prophecy on a different platform; on different light.
The plan of God was to be accomplished through the line of Abraham; as also Mary was used to give birth for this purpose. But the actual promised Messiah was certainly not man but God himself.
You can easily believe, like those disciples of Jesus, that this promise was to be the literal son of David (or through his line). It was certainly not the case as Jesus pointed out:
Acts1: 6-11
6So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
9After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11"Men of Galilee," they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
They were still thinking that he was just a man would restore the physical kingdom of David/Israel. But it was not to be so.
What Kingdom is it then?
John 18:36 (DRB) Jesus answered: My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would certainly strive that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now my kingdom is not from hence.
He was not to restore David’s kingdom but a kingdom that’s not of this world.
This kingdom is mention in Mt 25 “… he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.”
The King of the Kingdom of heaven is certainly not mere man, but God himself.
FOA, I acknowledge your point. There is very thin line that differentiates your reasoning from the teaching of Christianity. But that thin line is very clear that separates the two ideas, and when one understand the NT as a whole I would say the understanding would clearly lean towards that of Christianity’s.
God bless.
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Giovanni
Guest
You know, you have to look at it from a Muslim’s perspective and not from ours. There is no way that anyone is going to change our Muslim brothers and sisters minds by being disrespectful and sarcastic in our remarks.
Let us be thankful to God for what we have, being blessed with knowing that God loves us so much that He became man suffered and died for our sins.
For everyone else who has yet to clearly see and accept the truth, pray for them, God knows what He is doing.
May the love of God be with you.
Let us be thankful to God for what we have, being blessed with knowing that God loves us so much that He became man suffered and died for our sins.
For everyone else who has yet to clearly see and accept the truth, pray for them, God knows what He is doing.
May the love of God be with you.
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ralphinal
Guest
Does anyone know what hearsay is? It is when you relay information passed on to you from another source, but it may not be first hand information that you have. In the strictest sense, the Bible contains some level of hearsay. BUT, the Koran does as well. Christians believe that the Bible contains God’s words written by men. Muslims believe that the Koran contains God’s words relayed through Muhammid and written by men. That is, by definition, hearsay. It does not mean that God did not say it. It just casts doubt upon it. To say that you will not accept the Bible because it was written by men will also make you throw out the Koran.
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