Why Is Muhammad The Greatest?

[Deusdonat]

Muslims believe that the Koran contains God’s words relayed through Muhammid and written by men. That is, by definition, hearsay. It does not mean that God did not say it. It just casts doubt upon it. To say that you will not accept the Bible because it was written by men will also make you throw out the Koran.

Actually, just a small correction, the Mohammedans believe the Qur’an was dictated by God, then given to the Angel Gabriel, who THEN gave it to Mohammed, who had his people memorize it, and then finally write it down AFTER he was dead. This is hardly a seamless chain of evidence and makes Mohammedans angry when you bring it up. When challenged, they say the “proof” that it has been unchanged is that Muslims around the world can recite the entire text. When you respond that Jews can do the same thing with the Torah (or no doubt some Christians can do the same thing with the bible) they say, “Yeah, but THOSE texts were corrupted”.

Regardless, by definition, Mohammed is not the greatest, since in this logic, God didn’t feel him worthy to speak to, and instead sent a messanger (Gabriel) to talk to him. Meanwhile, Jesus (even in the Qur’an) speaks directly with God and will sit next to God in judgement of humanity. Case closed.

LOL. :tiphat:

 

[planten]

Does anyone know what hearsay is? It is when you relay information passed on to you from another source, but it may not be first hand information that you have. In the strictest sense, the Bible contains some level of hearsay. BUT, the Koran does as well. Christians believe that the Bible contains God’s words written by men. Muslims believe that the Koran contains God’s words relayed through Muhammid and written by men. That is, by definition, hearsay. It does not mean that God did not say it. It just casts doubt upon it. To say that you will not accept the Bible because it was written by men will also make you throw out the Koran.

Some wise words are in the above post. But it is not understood why the Quran is being denied authenticity. Is it just because an angel revealed it to Muhammad??

But we see in the bible OT and NT that angls are giving message at various places. I hope Abraham faced the angels. So did Joseph the carpentar. Once when he took Mary in marriage. Again after the birth of Jesus, an angel visited him and advised him to leave the area because the king will seek out Jesus to kill him. Joseph believed both visits of the angel, i.e. about Marry and also about moving to Egypt.

According to Muslims, Allah always gives His message to the people (prophets) through the angel. In the Quran, angel told the mother of Moses to put the child in the river and be not afraid. (Chapter 20). Angel spoke to Mary that she will have an illustrous son for the welfare of the children of Israel (chapter 19). There was quite a dialogue with the angel.

This is our basic belief that God passes messages through the angel and that God has been doing since time immemorial. There are two more modes also mentioned in the Quran but I cannot discuss them now.

So why it is a hinderance for the christian friends if an angel delivered the messages to Muhammad ! Nobody saw the angel talking to Joseph the father of Jesus. The Quran was totally revealed in parts over a period of 23 years. But as soon as some part (verse) was revealed, it used to be written down.

We have no objection to believing the bible as a revealed book. Whatever is there of the bible, we have to admit it. It is not our business to discredit it in any way. It is upto the christians to see to what they have got now.

 

[dolphinlove]

The whole thing is simple, why on earth would God send another prophet after his Son came here? It makes absolutely NO sense as to why God would have another prophet after Jesus, his Son was here.

 

[uglygal]

because he says so

I say it once, i say twice, i say it thrice, therefore it must be so

 

[Deusdonat]

Some wise words are in the above post. But it is not understood why the Quran is being denied authenticity. Is it just because an angel revealed it to Muhammad??

We have no objection to believing the bible as a revealed book. Whatever is there of the bible, we have to admit it. It is not our business to discredit it in any way. It is upto the christians to see to what they have got now.

We know that angels transmit messages to and from God. But when you look at all the contradictions and errors in the Qur’an, you must come to 1 of 3 conclusions; a) the message got corrupted somewhere between when God/Allah sent the message to Gabriel, who transmitted it to Mohammed who told his followers, who then repeated it for generations, who then finally wrote it down and compiled it into the Qur’an you use now b) The message was revealed from someone other than God/Allah to begin with or c) Mohammed never received a message and made it up.

How else can you explain all the errors?

 

[planten]

We know that angels transmit messages to and from God. But when you look at all the contradictions and errors in the Qur’an, you must come to 1 of 3 conclusions; a) the message got corrupted somewhere between when God/Allah sent the message to Gabriel, who transmitted it to Mohammed who told his followers, who then repeated it for generations, who then finally wrote it down and compiled it into the Qur’an you use now b) The message was revealed from someone other than God/Allah to begin with or c) Mohammed never received a message and made it up.

How else can you explain all the errors?

This is all assumptions. Maybe this maybe that. It is not a proper way to discuss. Also, in the above post case a) it is said that the message got corrupted somewhere between when God/Allah sent the message to Gabriel, who transmitted it to Mohammed who told his followers, who then repeated it for generations, who then finally wrote it down and compiled it into the Qur’an you use now.

How can you say that message got corrupted when given to Gabriel by God . That is not possible. Similarly all other ideas are wrong. I had told that the angel used to bring the message to the prophet and he used to call the scribes and had it written down each word. So what is the problem?

It is not good to put doubt on real things. I had written that christians, in order to validate the sinless birth of Jesus, use the coming of the angel to Joseph, the father of Jesus and believe it. But when we say that angel came to Muhammad then you people deny it and try to put difficulty in that news.

WE have no problem. You can have your way, if you think that is the right way.

 

[planten]

The whole thing is simple, why on earth would God send another prophet after his Son came here? It makes absolutely NO sense as to why God would have another prophet after Jesus, his Son was here.

Please read the parable of the tenants again. God is the Master. Spoiled people are the tenants. The prophets are the Servants. Jesus is the son. Jesus came and the tenants tried to kill him. That is according to the parable. That was the very bad act of the tenants (Jews).

The parable does not end there. It goes further and says that God will come himself and He will take account of everything… That is Muhammad with the power of God with him. Tell me who came after Jesus and claimed that he had come from God (Allah)?? It was only Muhammad which you deny. He dealt a big blow to the infidels, the enemies of Jesus, and his people brought the good fruit that was desired by God. Muhammad’s enemies did not prevail upon him.

You may believe it or not. But we do believe in that parable of Jesus and that was all true what Jesus had said. Thanks to God.

 

[Reuben_J]

Please read the parable of the tenants again. God is the Master. Spoiled people are the tenants. The prophets are the Servants. Jesus is the son. Jesus came and the tenants tried to kill him. That is according to the parable. That was the very bad act of the tenants (Jews).

The parable does not end there. It goes further and says that God will come himself and He will take account of everything… That is Muhammad with the power of God with him. Tell me who came after Jesus and claimed that he had come from God (Allah)?? It was only Muhammad which you deny. He dealt a big blow to the infidels, the enemies of Jesus, and his people brought the good fruit that was desired by God. Muhammad’s enemies did not prevail upon him.

You may believe it or not. But we do believe in that parable of Jesus and that was all true what Jesus had said. Thanks to God.

You can read the parable of the tenant again and study and dissect it.

God sent his own son but he was killed by the tenants. The son was Jesus was who was killed on the cross. Just this part alone would debunk the Quran which says that Jesus did not die on the cross.

The death on the cross was a mission finished. You don’t not need any more messengers after this except for those who will proclaim the truth of the death on the cross.

As for Mohammad being prophecied in the parable, I think this is simply fishing in the Dead Sea or in the Arabian Desert. Sorrry, but there are no fishes there.

Mohammad did not proclaim Jesus. He misinformed about Jesus. In fact you are a step better than him, for at least you acknowledge the parable of the tenant - a parable told by Jesus. Mohammad did not.

If you want to, we can start a new thread just on this parable so that we can discuss its implication and its effect in greater detail. This parable is very clear, there is no other way about it. You can’t just make up story and conclusion from things that are not found there.

 

[Reuben_J]

…

How can you say that message got corrupted when given to Gabriel by God . That is not possible. Similarly all other ideas are wrong. I had told that the angel used to bring the message to the prophet and he used to call the scribes and had it written down each word. So what is the problem?

It is not good to put doubt on real things. I had written that christians, in order to validate the sinless birth of Jesus, use the coming of the angel to Joseph, the father of Jesus and believe it. But when we say that angel came to Muhammad then you people deny it and try to put difficulty in that news.

WE have no problem. You can have your way, if you think that is the right way.

Huh, so the message was not corrupted?

We just demonstrated that the message was corrupted! In the parable of the tenants, the son was killed, which you admit yourself. The Quran says he was not.

If we agree that the angel did not corrupt the message, then surely this message came from a source that was different than the one that told the parable of the tenants. That’s why Deusdonat asked you the second and the third questions. The source of the message came from a being that was not God or from the mind of Mohammad - the great poet and story teller.

I hope you don’t mind I say this, (it’s not a good thing to say one’s scripture is corrupted!) since you too quite freely said that the Gospels were from men.

 

[abucs]

answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/Wood/deuteronomy_deductions.htm

answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/Wood/bewitched_prophet.htm

answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/Wood/islam_beheaded.htm

 

[Reuben_J]

answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/Wood/deuteronomy_deductions.htm

answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/Wood/bewitched_prophet.htm

answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/Wood/islam_beheaded.htm

Thanks for the links. I would not go as far as saying those myself but they do make sense to me. Maybe our Muslim friends can comment on them. …

 

[ralphinal]

My point was a simple one: if you throw out the Bible because it was not written by the very hand of God, you must do the same for the Koran. Now, if you accept that God inspired men to write the Bible, the same is possible for the Koran. If God inspired the writting, why would God allow it to be corrupted? He would not. There is no logic in that at all. Therefore, the Bible cannot have been corrupted. If the Bible’s information is accurate, then the Koran cannot be correct as it is currently written. Where did the errors come from, if God inspired it?

Now, I still want an answer about the whole crucifixion thing. If God is willing to lie and trick a bunch of people about Jesus dying on the cross, why should I trust anything he says or does? God cannot decieve or be decieved. It has to be that way. If God is able to trick people, then how do any of us know that he is not tricking us right now.

 

[Deusdonat]

How can you say that message got corrupted when given to Gabriel by God . That is not possible. Similarly all other ideas are wrong. I had told that the angel used to bring the message to the prophet and he used to call the scribes and had it written down each word. So what is the problem?

Whoever told you this does not know about Islam, and apparently you don’t either. According to ahadeet of abu Bakr and Bukhari the Qur’an was written down at least 2 generations after Mohammed. They took pieces from writings they gathered (even from jawbones of an ***) to compile the Qur’an. Mohammed never dictated it to any scribe. You’d have to find me a source for this as I have never before heard it. It simply is not true.
planten;3274469:

It is not good to put doubt on real things. I had written that christians, in order to validate the sinless birth of Jesus, use the coming of the angel to Joseph, the father of Jesus and believe it. But when we say that angel came to Muhammad then you people deny it and try to put difficulty in that news.

This is because of all the errors in the Qur’an. Why would God reveal a book with misinformation saying the earth is flat, that mountains are pegs to keep it stable, that the sun revolves around the earth, that the sky was created befor the stars? I agree it is not good to put doubt on “real” things, but the message of the Qur’an simply is not real. Scientifically or otherwise.

WE have no problem. You can have your way, if you think that is the right way.

That’s good to hear, although I don’t remember asking your permission.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Now, I still want an answer about the whole crucifixion thing. If God is willing to lie and trick a bunch of people about Jesus dying on the cross, why should I trust anything he says or does? God cannot decieve or be decieved. It has to be that way. If God is able to trick people, then how do any of us know that he is not tricking us right now.

It just means God killed Jesus on the cross before the cross could kill him. That’s why Jesus was yelling out asking why God forsook him, he thought God was going to let the cross and men kill him, spoiling prophecy. So God took him, then he isn’t really killed by a man and didn’t need his legs broken.

Part of why Jews reject Jesus is prophecy that says men can’t kill Messiah. This clears it up to say men didn’t kill him, God did to fulfill prophecy.

 

[dolphinlove]

Huh, so the message was not corrupted?

We just demonstrated that the message was corrupted! In the parable of the tenants, the son was killed, which you admit yourself. The Quran says he was not.

If we agree that the angel did not corrupt the message, then surely this message came from a source that was different than the one that told the parable of the tenants. That’s why Deusdonat asked you the second and the third questions. The source of the message came from a being that was not God or from the mind of Mohammad - the great poet and story teller.

I hope you don’t mind I say this, (it’s not a good thing to say one’s scripture is corrupted!) since you too quite freely said that the Gospels were from men.

Thanks for answering for me…
My Hero :hug1:

 

[abucs]

Jesus crying out

'My God, my God, why have you foresaken me" is clearly the opening line of psalm 22.

His death with the words
“Lord, into your hands i commend my spirit” is clealy from Psalms 31:6.

If you read those psalms you see clearly that Jesus is fulfilling those prophetic psalms that were written over a 1000 years previously and prayed to God over that time. By fulfilling those cries of 1000 years God has shared in the agony of the Israelites and through this delivered them and the whole world.

Example from Psalms

22:7 But i am a worm, hardly human, scorned by everyone, despised by the people. All who see me mock me; they curl their lips and jeer; they shake their heads at me. “You relied on the Lord-let him deliver you; if he loves you, let him rescue you”

22:14 They open their mouths against me, lions that rend and roar. Like water my life drains away; all my bones grow soft. My heart has become like wax, it melts away within me. As dry as a potsherd is my throat; my tongue sticks to my palate; you lay me down in the dust of death.
Many dogs surround me; a pack of evildoers closes in on me.
So wasted are my hands and feet that i can count all my bones.
They stare at me and gloat;
they divide my garments among them;
For my clothing they cast lots.

22:25
For God has not spurned or disdained the misery of this poor wretch. Did not turn away from me, but heard me when i cried out.
I will offer praise in the great assembly (see Hebrews NT)
my vows i will fulfill before those who fear him.
The poor will eat their fill;
Those who seek the Lord will offer praise.
May your hearts enjoy life forever.
All the ends of the earth will worship and turn to the Lord;
All the families of nations will bow low before you.
For kingship belongs to the Lord, the ruler over the nations.
All who sleep in the earth will bow low before God;
All who have gone down into the dust will kneel in homage.
And i will live for the Lord; my descendants will serve you.
The generation to come will be told of the Lord,
that they may proclaim to a people yet unborn the deliverance you have brought.

30:1
I praise you, Lord, for you raised me up and did not let my enemies rejoice over me.
O Lord, my God, i cried out to you and you healed me.
Lord, you brought me up from Sheol; you kept me from going down to the pit.

30:10
What gain is there from my lifeblood, from my going down to the grave ?
Does dust give you thanks or declare your faithfulness ?
Hear O Lord, have mercy on me; Lord, be my helper.
You changed my mourning into dancing;
you took off my sackcloth and clothed me with gladness.
With my whole being i sing endless praise to you.
O Lord my God, forever will i give you thanks.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Jesus crying out

'My God, my God, why have you foresaken me" is clearly the opening line of psalm 22.

His death with the words
“Lord, into your hands i commend my spirit” is clealy from Psalms 31:6.

If you read those psalms you see clearly that Jesus is fulfilling those prophetic psalms that were written over a 1000 years previously and prayed to God over that time. By fulfilling those cries of 1000 years God has shared in the agony of the Israelites and through this delivered them and the whole world.

I agree he fulfills them, as a man scared on the cross crying out to God.

 

[abucs]

Well i disagree FOA.

A Christ that prays for his executioners in agony on the cross and has presence of mind to quote psalms relating to himself seems sure of his convictions.

Gospels which relate Christs beforehand knowledge that he should die and then rise from the dead (if you accept the texts) show that he knew what was going to happen.

The problem with text, is that out of context, we can try to make it fit how we would like things to be, to a certain extent.

We are all, i’m sure including myself, guilty of that.

 

[ralphinal]

It just means God killed Jesus on the cross before the cross could kill him. That’s why Jesus was yelling out asking why God forsook him, he thought God was going to let the cross and men kill him, spoiling prophecy. So God took him, then he isn’t really killed by a man and didn’t need his legs broken.

Part of why Jews reject Jesus is prophecy that says men can’t kill Messiah. This clears it up to say men didn’t kill him, God did to fulfill prophecy.

FoA,
You are the only Muslim on this site who holds to this concept. THe others teach that either he was not on the cross at all, that God made it look like he died when he did not, or that he was replaced before death. By these accounts, God is a lier and a fraud. I need clarification.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Well i disagree FOA.

A Christ that prays for his executioners in agony on the cross and has presence of mind to quote psalms relating to himself seems sure of his convictions.

Gospels which relate Christs beforehand knowledge that he should die and then rise from the dead (if you accept the texts) show that he knew what was going to happen.

The problem with text, is that out of context, we can try to make it fit how we would like things to be, to a certain extent.

We are all, i’m sure including myself, guilty of that.

It says here Jesus was crying to God to save his life, pretty clearly.

Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;