Why is our last decision the only one that matters?

[fhansen]

What about the spiritual status of one who was once a Catholic but, as a young adult, converted to another religion that is not Christian (Islam). In spite of all protestations and entreaties and explanations of her “mistake”, she continues in this heretical situation. but worships God as she sees fit praying and fasting. She believes she has done the right thing although she is deceiving herself. But perhaps she is just so misguided that she can’t see the truth of her situation although it’s been pointed out to her numerous times. I know God is merciful and can open Heaven to anyone who repents. But what if a person doesn’t repent of apostasy? Even at the time of death? The same question could probably be asked about other beliefs including atheism and agnosticism. I suppose the answer is a burst of God’s grace at time of death, but death can come quickly.

God judges on our knowledge-and people can be “invincibly ignorant”, a Catholic term, for a variety of reasons even if they’ve been taught the faith. I didn’t come to understand the beauty of the Catholic faith until years after leaving the Church even though I was raised and educated Catholic.

 

[4Horsemen]

God judges on our knowledge-and people can be “invincibly ignorant”, a Catholic term, for a variety of reasons even if they’ve been taught the faith. I didn’t come to understand the beauty of the Catholic faith until years after leaving the Church even though I was raised and educated Catholic.

I, too, was away from the Church although raised a “cradle Catholic” with an excellent educational background. But words don’t matter unless the “heart and mind” are open to God’s invitation. Sometimes it takes a good poke from God to bring us to the realization of His omnipotence and our utter dependence upon Him. When God saw that I was ready to receive His holy Word, I read the 4 Gospels and fell in love with Jesus. However, there are members of my own family who are not in touch with the Lord. It’s hard to understand sometimes until I look back at my own situation. But God says in Scripture that “when you seek Me with all your heart, you will find Me.” (Jer.29:12-14)

 

[fhansen]

I, too, was away from the Church although raised a “cradle Catholic” with an excellent educational background. But words don’t matter unless the “heart and mind” are open to God’s invitation. Sometimes it takes a good poke from God to bring us to the realization of His omnipotence and our utter dependence upon Him. When God saw that I was ready to receive His holy Word, I read the 4 Gospels and fell in love with Jesus. However, there are members of my own family who are not in touch with the Lord. It’s hard to understand sometimes until I look back at my own situation. But God says in Scripture that “when you seek Me with all your heart, you will find Me.” (Jer.29:12-14)

Amen

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

god and christ are outside time , and indeed there is no time in our world either , this is an eternal realm , time and change are but a necessary illusion

Is this a personal opinion or De Fide? I’ve never heard the notion that our realm is timeless. As St. Augustine says “time is the measure of change”, ergo our realm is bound by time. I’m not attacking you in anyway but this almost sounds like eastern philosophy, that time is a necessary illusion. Can you provide any reads about this from Magisterium, Early Church Fathers, or Sacred Scripture?

so christs redemptive and salvific work is in " now " and not limited to or a time , but is truly eternal , and all men from the first benefit , the church has always taught basically anyone can be saved by following his conscience as he understands it and repenting of gave violations of his conscience , even if he has no knowledge of god , christ , religion nor anything – in certain curcumstances …

The person did not repent before his death, but your saying someone can be saved through invincible ignorance. We agree, and you are proving my point. In order to be saved though one must repent, an act of contrition. How does one do such a thing after death yet have the chance to gain salvation based on invincible ignorance? Sounds like God gives people the chance to repent after death, unless you’re suggestion he saves them without asking. He man peer into our hearts, but He desires that we fully desire to repent through heart, mind, and body and act out this sorrow of sins.

…gods judgments are different to mans , god judges the truly unfortunate and ignorant on the basis of what they would do if they knew the truth and whole truth , only god can know this , and there are beyond infinite variables that go into gods judhments of man , we can’t judge because we are not god and always get it infinitely wrong , hence we are forbidden to judge others by christ ,

We agree. No one is in the business of judging except God. Ergo, we cannot say with full certainty that there is no repentance after death.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Is this a personal opinion or De Fide? I’ve never heard the notion that our realm is timeless. As St. Augustine says “time is the measure of change”, ergo our realm is bound by time. I’m not attacking you in anyway but this almost sounds like eastern philosophy, that time is a necessary illusion. Can you provide any reads about this from Magisterium, Early Church Fathers, or Sacred Scripture?

… dearest frien , my own theory , but that does not = error , in fact it is the only logical conclusion when fully understood as i understand it , but it’s part of a bigger pic and on it’s own may sound strange being newish , i’m not into eastern stuff etc , my work is my own and i’m catholic of course …

The person did not repent before his death, but your saying someone can be saved through invincible ignorance. We agree, and you are proving my point. In order to be saved though one must repent, an act of contrition. How does one do such a thing after death yet have the chance to gain salvation based on invincible ignorance? Sounds like God gives people the chance to repent after death, unless you’re suggestion he saves them without asking. He man peer into our hearts, but He desires that we fully desire to repent through heart, mind, and body and act out this sorrow of sins.

… my opine in such a situation god knows if a person would repent or not if they knew the full truth and judges them on what their decision would be , so if the truly ignorant would have repented ( and we presume they have a sin to repent of , rememner invinvible ignoprance to the empth can easily disqualify one from the ability to be guilty of mortal sin ) , then they are judged as having repented or not guilty of serious sin , as the case may be , but you cannot repent at your personal or general judgment once it has begun , and if your personal comes prior to the general then you need to be ready for it , as you do not get a 2nd chance at the general on the last day , but god is not cruel , and our whole faith is a giant beyond infinite mystery – as is each teaching , so god may surprise us in eternity , but die in grace , leave this world and come before god in grace , or hell awaits most assuredly dear friend …

We agree. No one is in the business of judging except God. Ergo, we cannot say with full certainty that there is no repentance after death.

… there is repentance for those destined for heaven after death , as with purgatory , but those in hell cannot repent – impossible , but my own theory is god has a plan to return all to reality , and hell and all evil are non - reality or delusion , and in eternity they will disappear when all are retured to reality , and it has to be when understood fully or god ceases to be , and neither angelic or human beings really have free will as understood , they are only free to do gods will , the current free will is a delusion and curse for that matter , a punishment , so none can complain if eventually god forces all to do his will no matter what , this is my own theory and once again it is a very brief snippet of the whole picture dear friend …

---

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[Vis_Fati]

First, I don’t think an infinitely merciful God would cast out someone who is lost, despondent, grief-stricken in the last moments or even years of life.

Secondly, why do we presume God is locked into the chronology of mortal life. Is not a life and a soul more than the chronologically most recent moment?

I don’t know about you, but my soul is atemporal.

 

[4Horsemen]

Quote: John Russell

… there is repentance for those destined for heaven after death , as with purgatory , but those in hell cannot repent – impossible , but my own theory is god has a plan to return all to reality , and hell and all evil are non - reality or delusion , and in eternity they will disappear when all are retured to reality , and it has to be when understood fully or god ceases to be , and neither angelic or human beings really have free will as understood , they are only free to do gods will , the current free will is a delusion and curse for that matter , a punishment , so none can complain if eventually god forces all to do his will no matter what , this is my own theory and once again it is a very brief snippet of the whole picture dear friend …

I’m perplexed. Perhaps you can explain, first of all, what you mean by “reality,” since you said that God has a plan to “return all to reality.” Also, why do you define Hell and all evil as “non-reality or delusion.” Then please explain how they will “disappear when all are returned to reality.” I’m even more perplexed by your next statement that “it (?) has to be when understood fully or god ceases to be.” Also, you might want to mention your idea of free will. Even though we should choose to do God’s will, we are still free to choose otherwise. I’m assuming it’s just that your interpretation is different but your belief is the same. However, saying that “eventually god forces all to do his will no matter what” sounds like predeterminism and, likely, heretical.

 

[tonyrey]

First, I don’t think an infinitely merciful God would cast out someone who is lost, despondent, grief-stricken in the last moments or even years of life.

Secondly, why do we presume God is locked into the chronology of mortal life. Is not a life and a soul more than the chronologically most recent moment?

I don’t know about you, but my soul is atemporal.

Welcome to the forum! Atemporal with free will…

 

[Slowlearner]

If we can no longer make any decisions we cease to be persons…

This is it.

If God gives man free will to repent and accept him at the last hour, he must necessarily have the free will to do the opposite.

Why does the notion seem to bother some of us? (It used to bother me.)

If we say it is unfair that a person lived a holy life and threw away heaven at the last minute, then we are mistaken. We may, and should be sad, about such an event, but there is no unfairness in allowing a person to make his own decision.

Maybe it is because we seek to control our own destiny, feeling that we can and should be granted access to heaven after acquiring a certain number of points or performing the requisite number of works. If we knew the calculus, we could plan to do just the right amount of good to offset our bad, do it on schedule, and, bingo, we get in. (In math, the order of addition or subtraction does not matter, so 4 -1 + 2 = 5 = 4 +2 - 1). I used to think in this manner, and I can tell you that my heart was not aligned with God at the time.

Or maybe the reason we are bothered by such a situation is that, knowing our own sinfulness, we fear that we might ourselves make this decision, or at least perhaps commit some mortal sin and die before opportunity for confession. The solution for this I believe is simply to pray and strive to live a holy life (i.e. follow teaching of the Church!!!). As you do, your love of God and trust in him will grow and your repentance will spring from love, not fear. Any day you have doubt, go to confession and go to Mass!!

 

[tonyrey]

Or maybe the reason we are bothered by such a situation is that, knowing our own sinfulness, we fear that we might ourselves make this decision, or at least perhaps commit some mortal sin and die before opportunity for confession.

Even though we died before we had an opportunity for confession but repented of our sins we wouldn’t go to hell if we had led a good life and tried to follow the teaching of Jesus. That is where Purgatory comes in.

 

[Nimeniton]

It’s wonderful to know that God is merciful to anyone who repents, no matter how late they have a change of heart. But the flipside of that is eternal suffering for (for example) a lifelong devout Catholic who rejects God minutes before his/her death. Though it may be unlikely, I think it’s definitely possible.

So how does that make any kind of sense?

I remember discussing with my teacher who was a strict Lutheran. She was puzzled by my atheism but did make an interesting admission. She had at one time been very ill and was close to death. At the time she had a strong conviction that there was nothing after death. She was very surprised that she felt this. So it can happen that one loses a precious belief in the final moments. As far as I know she returned to her old beliefs on recovery. But “nothing after death” would have been her last belief should she have died.

 

[Vis_Fati]

Let’s assume that at the end of life, a person becomes distraught, confused, deranged with mental disorders, such as fear, depression, anxiety, and a smidgen of Alzheimer’s … which is often more than lost memory and which can include a form of insanity…

So this person raises a fist at God, says some unsavory things to Him and might even rebuke Him. Sure, he has free will, but he has some clear mental disorders…

Are some of you saying he’s going to hell after having spent a holy life living in God’s Grace.

I’m sorry – I just don’t buy it.

 

[tonyrey]

Let’s assume that at the end of life, a person becomes distraught, confused, deranged with mental disorders, such as fear, depression, anxiety, and a smidgen of Alzheimer’s … which is often more than lost memory and which can include a form of insanity…

So this person raises a fist at God, says some unsavory things to Him and might even rebuke Him. Sure, he has free will, but he has some clear mental disorders…

Are some of you saying he’s going to hell after having spent a holy life living in God’s Grace.

I’m sorry – I just don’t buy it.

You’re dead right!

 

[multipurpose]

If we can no longer make any decisions we cease to be persons…

Whoa there Tonyrey - Scary statement that - If you’re in a coma do you cease to be a person? If you’re on total life support and in a coma do you cease to be a person? And once you’ve ceased being a person - what do you become?

 

[multipurpose]

It’s wonderful to know that God is merciful to anyone who repents, no matter how late they have a change of heart. But the flipside of that is eternal suffering for (for example) a lifelong devout Catholic who rejects God minutes before his/her death. Though it may be unlikely, I think it’s definitely possible.

So how does that make any kind of sense?

Ummmm - because of free will. There is either free will or there is not. If there is free will, then we can reject God with our last breath. If we reject God with our last breath then we suffer. Just like we suffer here…only eternally…which, by the way, also means ‘outside time’.

And human nature being what it is - the more often you say no, the easier it is to say no and the more often you say yes, the easier it is to say yes. (That’s why the best salesmen ask the customer so many yes questions before asking for the sale.) So say Yes to God each and every time and maybe, you just might mitigate whatever bad stuff is going on in your free will when you take that last breathe…I’m just sayin’

 

[Nimeniton]

Ummmm - because of free will. There is either free will or there is not. If there is free will, then we can reject God with our last breath. If we reject God with our last breath then we suffer. Just like we suffer here…only eternally…which, by the way, also means ‘outside time’.

What exactly does “outside time” mean and how does it differ from forever and forever within time? Do you experience less suffering in an “outside time” hell than you do with a “forever and ever” hell?

 

[tonyrey]

If we can no longer make any decisions we cease to be persons…

I believe we can still make decisions when we’re in a coma but no one else - except God - is aware of them!

A friend of mine was in a coma before she died but she groaned when she heard a piano being played…

A warm welcome to the forum! :tiphat:

 

[multipurpose]

What exactly does “outside time” mean and how does it differ from forever and forever within time? Do you experience less suffering in an “outside time” hell than you do with a “forever and ever” hell?

Hi - You ask thought provoking questions!

What do you think ‘outside time’ means?

and don’t we have to define ‘within time’ first?

Let’s define 'within time" as the answer to the question - “How long has it been since my last meal?”
So - define ‘outside time’ as - “Never hungry.”

Let’s define hell. How about -“Hell (infernus) in theological usage is a place of punishment after death” and those that choose to go there “shall not possess the Kingdom of God.”
(newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm)

AS to your second question: IF, with my dying breathe, I choose to go to hell where “God does not rule my heart”, and my “principles do not separate me from the kingdom of the world and the devil” and there is no “benign sway of grace” then I don’t see how my hunger or lack there of would mitigate my suffering… Do you? (newadvent.org/cathen/08646a.htm)

 

[Binary]

In retrospect, I didn’t phrase my concern very well. I think I got my brain a bit turned around when I was thinking about existing in time vs. not existing in time. And it seems to me that one of our choices is given infinite weight vis a vis salvation, and all of the others are given zero weight. So I started asking myself questions like “why is one decision infinitely more significant than the other simply because it occurred at a later date?”

Thinking more on the topic of the thread now, it seems to me that God will in some way ensure that our final decision is an informed one perhaps, “through ways known to him alone, [He] may offer the opportunity for salutary repentance,” to quote the Catechism. But this is just speculative on my part, so please correct me if I’m heading in the wrong direction.

 

[multipurpose]

In retrospect, I didn’t phrase my concern very well. I think I got my brain a bit turned around when I was thinking about existing in time vs. not existing in time. And it seems to me that one of our choices is given infinite weight vis a vis salvation, and all of the others are given zero weight. So I started asking myself questions like “why is one decision infinitely more significant than the other simply because it occurred at a later date?”

Thinking more on the topic of the thread now, it seems to me that God will in some way ensure that our final decision is an informed one perhaps, “through ways known to him alone, [He] may offer the opportunity for salutary repentance,” to quote the Catechism. But this is just speculative on my part, so please correct me if I’m heading in the wrong direction.

Dear Binary, by the way I like your name - I define it as - yes or no, black or white, 0 or 1 - at least that is how I describe the ‘thought processes’ of computer programs to students who are frustrated with the outcomes they are getting using them - seems to do the trick - they quit expecting intuitive responses to their (name removed by moderator)ut and figure out a way around whatever problem they are having.

How can you be heading in the wrong direction if you are talking to God? I have a theory, personal and anecdotal ONLY, that when I disagree with something the Church teaches, it is God talking to me, beckoning me on, saying “get to know Me.” Then I do what you are doing - research, read, study, ask questions while I pray for faith and continue to obey. I am always wrong. funny that eh? Not surprising tho - there is 8000 years of wisdom in the Church.

Please bear with me, it’s hard to understand through the written word only - body language, tone of voice, facial expressions all inform our understanding of anothers point of view.

You wrote:

And it seems to me that one of our choices is given infinite weight vis a vis salvation, and all of the others are given zero weight.

We don’t live in a vacuum. We don’t wake up brand new babies every morning. Our past choices and actions impact our lives today. I used to smoke cigarettes and that choice had me making other odd choices. Since I quit I no longer make those odd choices and if someone offered me a cigarette on my deathbed, I’m pretty sure I would say no thank you. But that’s because I quit - I’m no longer in the habit of saying yes to cigarettes. Couldn’t the same be true in our relationship with God? If I’m in the habit of saying yes to God, then I’ll probably say Yes on my deathbed. My last decision is based on my previous decisions and in that respect they have weight.

Your wrote:

So I started asking myself questions like “why is one decision infinitely more significant than the other simply because it occurred at a later date?”

Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t you change the question? It went from “last decision” to one that simply occurs at a later date.

Are you asking for a scale? You know - my good deeds go on one side, my evil deeds on the other and whichever way it falls, that’s where I spend eternity? ( Now I’m thinking about the impact that would have on my life and my relationship with God…wow thank you)