Why is Peter considered the first "Pope", if it was James who Peter and Paul answered to?

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Franz Xaver von Funk, a foremost authority on all similar early canonical texts, locates the composition of the Apostolic Canons in the fifth century, near the year 400.
That’s only on the assumption that it was not added to as time progressed. There are some canons in it that are clearly of a later date - however, the concept of head bishop is not one of those later canons, as it is evident from the first century (which is why the Corinthians wrote to Clement instead of a geographically closer bishop to settle their ecclesiological harangues). I don;t know who von Funk is, but if he thinks that canonical collections are drawn up all at one time, then he’s not as expert as you might think.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
James, Peter, and John were all leaders in the Jerusalem church and shared decision-making:

Galatians 2:9 “James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we…” Peter is second in the list, after James.

Peter identifies himself as:
  1. “Peter, **an apostle **of Jesus Christ…,” (1 Peter 1:1)
  2. “Simon Peter, a servant and apostle…” (2 Peter 1:1)
  3. “To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness…” (1 Peter 5:1)
Notice Peter never uses the article “the” but only “a” or “an”. Peter never refers to himself as a singular leader or head of anything, Also, neither James, Paul, nor John in any of their writings refer to Peter as having any special role except as “apostle to the Jews” (Galatians 2:8).
Peter didn’t have to say much about himself; Jesus had alread established Peter’s primacy.

Peter, the first Pope, as Vicar of Christ

In John 21 we read:

15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.” 16Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.” 17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, "Feed my sheep.

In this passage, we can see that Jesus leaves Peter in charge of feeding, tending and caring for His sheep. Who feeds, tends and cares for sheep? A shepherd!

We know that Jesus is the Good Shepherd and that there is one Shepherd and one flock (cf. John 10). Yet, in the passage above, we can see that Jesus leaves Peter in charge of feeding, tending and caring for His sheep. Peter becomes the shepherd who will lead the flock after Jesus’ ascension. Therefore, while Jesus is forever our Good Shepherd reigning from heaven, He has made provision for us by naming someone else to stand in His place, to be His vicar, here on earth. The Vicar of Christ established by Jesus is the Pope of the Catholic Church.

Therefore, not only does Peter (and his successors, the Popes) hold the keys to the kingdom of God (cf. Mt 16:18, Is. 22:22), but he holds the shepherd’s crook or crozier, as well.
 
T as it is evident from the first century (which is why the Corinthians wrote to Clement instead of a geographically closer bishop to settle their ecclesiological harangues
I’ve never come across any historical of scholarly evidence of this before…can you expand or clarify this claim of yours? Thanks.
 
As in, in the book of Galatians, Paul says this about Peter:

Galatians 2:12
“Until some men arrived from James, he was in the habit of eating with the gentiles, but after those men came, he withdrew from the gentiles and would not associate with them any longer, because he was afraid of the circumcision party.”

#####This circumcision party came from JAMES. Now why is he sending out Heretics? Did this happen after the COUNCIL or before?/ If it was before, then Peters’ pronouncement had not taken place and James needed to be confronted with the problem he was creating. If after then James is knowingly sending out Judaizers. ####
and in the Book of Acts when they had disputes in the early Century, they would go to Jerusalem,

###This dispute came from Jerusalem, from James.###

which was the main Church where the Elders and Apostles were where James was the Bishop of that Church, which would be the modern day Vatican. James even gave a decree from that Church in Acts.

So how exactly was Peter Pope if according to the bible, Peter and Paul answered to James?
 
1.REPLY: Such a fundamental role as head of the church needs to be defined and in place from the start, like the deity of Christ, qualifications of bishops and deacons, baptism, etc. Yet an earthly **head of the church is conspicuously absent **in scripture.
It was in place from the start. The Church predates Scripture.
 
As in, in the book of Galatians, Paul says this about Peter:

Galatians 2:12
“Until some men arrived from James, he was in the habit of eating with the gentiles, but after those men came, he withdrew from the gentiles and would not associate with them any longer, because he was afraid of the circumcision party.”

and in the Book of Acts when they had disputes in the early Century, they would go to Jerusalem, which was the main Church where the Elders and Apostles were where James was the Bishop of that Church, which would be the modern day Vatican. James even gave a decree from that Church in Acts.

So how exactly was Peter Pope if according to the bible, Peter and Paul answered to James?
Look at the structure of Acts: It focuses on two men: Peter and Paul. James is always in the background. In the Gospels Peter is the spokesman of the Twelve. James is not in evidence. Likewise Peter dominates the first twelve chapters before the story shifts to Paul. That Peter never comes back into the picture stikes me as strange unless Luke perhaps intended to wrote more about him later. Likewise, the sudden end of the story of Paul which also makes it looks as though Luke just dropped his pen. Like it or not the “History” we can dig out of the New Testament is quite incomplete. It cerrtainly can’t be used to refute the tradition that Peter and Paul were martyrs in Rome, or even the story that Paul went to Spain.
 
The names of the Twelve Apostles are written on the foundation stones of the New Jerusalem. Where is your vaunted James? Imagine, a Johnny-come-lately, late to the party, being ahead and above those who were in from the start? Ridiculous. And let’s not forget that “Peter” is not a name but a title, the mark of his function. He was the rock, that was his office.
 
The names of the Twelve Apostles are written on the foundation stones of the New Jerusalem. Where is your vaunted James? Imagine, a Johnny-come-lately, late to the party, being ahead and above those who were in from the start? Ridiculous. And let’s not forget that “Peter” is not a name but a title, the mark of his function. He was the rock, that was his office.
Sorry, how does your comment relate to this thread? I may by obtuse, which is why I am asking for clarification. I am really unclear about the relevant point you are advancing.
 
=
Daniel Keeran;5058141]Galatians 2:9 “James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we…” .
Actually Daniel, Paul calls Peter "Cephas" which as you know means 'rock" which I believe is significant because in the Old Testament only God was called a rock. The word “rock” was never used as a proper name for a man.
Peter is second in the list, after James
How many times is Peter listed first throughout scripture?

Christ told Peter to “Tend my sheep” The Greek word used here is poimaino which can be translated “ to rule, to govern" Why was only Peter told to “tend (govern) my sheep”?
 
Look at the structure of Acts: It focuses on two men: Peter and Paul. James is always in the background. In the Gospels Peter is the spokesman of the Twelve. James is not in evidence. Likewise Peter dominates the first twelve chapters before the story shifts to Paul. That Peter never comes back into the picture stikes me as strange unless Luke perhaps intended to wrote more about him later. Likewise, the sudden end of the story of Paul which also makes it looks as though Luke just dropped his pen. Like it or not the “History” we can dig out of the New Testament is quite incomplete. It cerrtainly can’t be used to refute the tradition that Peter and Paul were martyrs in Rome, or even the story that Paul went to Spain.
The NT was put together for the Divine Liturgy and not a vast amount of Sola Scripturists. Sorry but you are approaching Christianity at the wrong angle in my humble opinion. If you want history then start with all the writings the early church used which will include the 27 books of the NT and over 200 more. You will find a greater understanding if scripture after reading from the ECFs.

I will start by recommending Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement of Rome and maybe the Didache.
 
Paul calls Peter "Cephas" which as you know means 'rock" which I believe is significant because in the Old Testament only God was called a rock. The word “rock” was never used as a proper name for a man.
Peter = Rock = Cephas
Whenever you see any of them, they’re never proper names, only titles. If you see one or the other used, it’s just for translator’s effect. 🤷
 
LOL! I like how what I said was conveniently over looked. Oh well.

How is it Sola Scriptura?
How can it be by Scripture alone when Scripture never says Scripture alone.
So what is the Church built upon?
it says: “[The] household of God, [is] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone.” -Ephesians 2:19-20
Also, it says that the Church is “the pillar and foundation of truth” -1 Tim 3:15
So, if the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, and it is built upon the Apostles, with Jesus as the capstone, then it looks like Jesus meant for it to be built on the Apostles.
Now here, only history can answer whether the Apostles passed down their authority. Actually Acts shows where Judas is replaced, but one can research history, which is un-tainted (they have ways of testing that sort of thing), and find that they did pass down their authority.

So what kind of arguments are there? If it is by scripture alone, then it seems pretty clear, that Jesus gave the keys to Peter, which is revealed, and the Apostles would have understood from Isaiah 22:22. To assume that it means anything else besides this, especially with that bit of scripture behind it (if you read it), then one can find that saying it is anything else is mere assumption, and assumption is not going by the Bible alone, rather it is based on a single persons opinion which changes from person to person.

So what is it?
 
As in, in the book of Galatians, Paul says this about Peter:

Galatians 2:12
“Until some men arrived from James, he was in the habit of eating with the gentiles, but after those men came, he withdrew from the gentiles and would not associate with them any longer, because he was afraid of the circumcision party.”

and in the Book of Acts when they had disputes in the early Century, they would go to Jerusalem, which was the main Church where the Elders and Apostles were where James was the Bishop of that Church, which would be the modern day Vatican. James even gave a decree from that Church in Acts.

So how exactly was Peter Pope if according to the bible, Peter and Paul answered to James?
On Peter, Paul and Hypocrisy

In their effort to deny the primacy of Peter and the doctrine of papal infallibility, many non-Catholics point to Paul’s rebuke of Peter over the issue of eating with Gentiles as recorded in the Paul’s Letter to the Galatians.****

Galatians 2:11-14
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. 14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

In this passage, we see that Paul opposed Peter for not practicing what he preached. Although Peter may have been wrong to draw back from eating with the Gentile believers, we must note that is apparently James, and not Peter, who was the leader of the “circumcision group” in Jerusalem. Thus, those who assert that it was James, and not Peter, who was the real leader of the Church must answer for this error. However, Peter’s actions do not constitute formal teaching, and the doctrine of infallibility does not apply to Peter’s private opinions or behavior. Therefore, this passage does nothing to disprove either Peter’s primacy or the doctrine of papal infallibility. Peter, like his successors, was not above reproach nor impeccable.

However, it must also be noted that Paul was not above taking prudent measures out of fear of those who held to the tradition of circumcision, either. One such measure is found in the following passage:

Acts 16:1-3
1
He came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was a Jewess and a believer, but whose father was a Greek. 2The brothers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

Paul wrote that “circumcision means nothing” (1 Corinthians 7:19, Galatians 6:15). Moreover, in the same letter in which Paul accused Peter of hypocrisy and boasted of having opposed Peter to his face, he writes the following:

Galatians 5:2-3
2
Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

Imagine how Timothy must have felt when he first heard these words. He had let himself be circumcised by the very man who condemned the practice. Was Christ of no value to Timothy at all as a result of being circumcised?

This was not the only time that Paul had acted out of fear of the Jews. Later in the book of Acts, we find the following:

Acts 21:17-26
17
When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. 18The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.” 26The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.

Clearly, the brothers in Jerusalem were concerned that some harm might come to Paul from those who knew that Paul taught against circumcision. Paul agreed to purify himself according to Jewish customs and to pay the expenses of those who were purified along with him rather than openly admit that circumcision was of no value. Was this a wise course of action? Assuredly as subsequent events indicate.

However, it cannot be denied that Paul was preaching one thing (at least in private to Gentile Christians) while practicing another—the very thing he accused Peter of doing.
 
In order for the papacy as the central position of head of the universal church, to be valid, it must have been present in the church from the beginning as defined in the New Testament.
why is that?

You are suggesting that Irenaus is in error?
 
why is that?

You are suggesting that Irenaus is in error?
Irenaeus did not claim to be inspired or without error.

At this time Victor, whom Irenaeus rebuked, was probably a singular bishop of Rome. His spirit of Diotrephes is demonstrated in his arbitrary declaration of excommunication of churches that did not celebrate the Pasqua on the same day he did, in clear violation of Romans 14:5-6 “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.”
 
Now here, only history can answer whether the Apostles passed down their authority. Actually Acts shows where Judas is replaced, but one can research history, which is un-tainted (they have ways of testing that sort of thing), and find that they did pass down their authority.

So what kind of arguments are there? If it is by scripture alone, then it seems pretty clear, that Jesus gave the keys to Peter, which is revealed, and the Apostles would have understood from Isaiah 22:22. To assume that it means anything else besides this, especially with that bit of scripture behind it (if you read it), then one can find that saying it is anything else is mere assumption, and assumption is not going by the Bible alone, rather it is based on a single persons opinion which changes from person to person.

So what is it?
Is.22:20 “In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. 21 I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 I will place **on his shoulder the key to the house **of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 23 I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will be a seat [a] of honor for the house of his father. 24 All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshoots—all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars.”

How is this a reference to Jesus’ words to Peter in Matt 16? Certainly the words rock, keys, bind, loose, all have meaning with reference to Peter but not as head of the church or king of the kingdom or this would have been refered to later by Peter and others. Rather the words appear to be played out in his role on the day of Pentecost when first annnouncing the gospel first to the Jews and later to the Gentiles with Cornelius.

Now re the replacement of Judas, we know that his replacement was prophesied in the OT and the qualifications of his replacement included eyewitness of the resurrection, so apostolic succession was not intended or even possible.
 
(which is why the Corinthians wrote to Clement instead of a geographically closer bishop to settle their ecclesiological harangues).
why do you think they wrote to Clement? his name is not mentioned in the letter; also a singular bishop is not referred to either in Rome or in Corinth but rather a plurality of bishops/presbyters
 
Peter didn’t have to say much about himself; Jesus had alread established Peter’s primacy.

In John 21 we read:
15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?” … Jesus said, "Feed my sheep.

In this passage, we can see that Jesus leaves Peter in charge of feeding, tending and caring for His sheep. Who feeds, tends and cares for sheep? A shepherd!

We know that Jesus is the Good Shepherd and that there is one Shepherd and one flock (cf. John 10). Yet, in the passage above, we can see that Jesus leaves Peter in charge of feeding, tending and caring for His sheep. Peter becomes the shepherd who will lead the flock after Jesus’ ascension. Therefore, while Jesus is forever our Good Shepherd reigning from heaven, He has made provision for us by naming someone else to stand in His place, to be His vicar, here on earth. The Vicar of Christ established by Jesus is the Pope of the Catholic Church.

Therefore, not only does Peter (and his successors, the Popes) hold the keys to the kingdom of God (cf. Mt 16:18, Is. 22:22), but he holds the shepherd’s crook or crozier, as well.

This passage is simply confirming Peters faith after denying Christ three times. It has nothing to do with Peter as head of the church.
 
Is.22:20 “In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. 21 I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 I will place **on his shoulder the key to the house **of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 23 I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will be a seat [a] of honor for the house of his father. 24 All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshoots—all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars.”

How is this a reference to Jesus’ words to Peter in Matt 16? Certainly the words rock, keys, bind, loose, all have meaning with reference to Peter but not as head of the church or king of the kingdom or this would have been refered to later by Peter and others. Rather the words appear to be played out in his role on the day of Pentecost when first annnouncing the gospel first to the Jews and later to the Gentiles with Cornelius.

Now re the replacement of Judas, we know that his replacement was prophesied in the OT and the qualifications of his replacement included eyewitness of the resurrection, so apostolic succession was not intended or even possible.
It seems to be the same way Psalms is taken today, though it meant during David’s life as well. But that doesn’t matter I suppose:)
How else could the Jews have taken “Simon I name you Cephas and upon this Cephas I build my Church that the gates of hell may not prevail against it. What ever you bind on earth is bound in heaven, what ever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven.” You have to read it as they would have understood it back then. Keys means position of power, keys to the Kingdom of heaven is like saying keys to the house of David, which historians explain means the kingdom of God:) Keys represent power. So why Peter, why power, why the church being built on Cephas which means directly Rock which means directly Peter.

And where does it say Scripture alone?

How did the early Church get along with no apostles and no Bible?

And what about the other verses I gave?

How was it not possible for Apostlic succession? Explain that further.
 
I’ve never come across any historical of scholarly evidence of this before…can you expand or clarify this claim of yours? Thanks.
It is what Eastern and Orientals (Catholic or Orthodox) believe. I’ve never looked for proof. It’s just what we believe because it is in our Traditions. I am aware that one of the Popes in the 6th(?) century regarded them as spurious, but that decision was only for the Latin Church, and does not affect Eastern and Oriental Catholic belief on the issue. You are asking for “proof” on a matter that you won’t believe even with “proof” because your Patriarch has already made his decision, and on a matter that I will believe despite the absence of the kind of “proof” you require.

Have a blessed Lent.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
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