Why is Peter considered the first "Pope", if it was James who Peter and Paul answered to?

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Nice dodge
No dodge. Truth.
Rev. Chrysostom Frank, and Eastern Orthodox priest from South Africa took the occasion to do some serious soul-searching and weighed in on the problems facing the Orthodox world with the following thoughts
LOL! You are despatate now! You bring a former Orthodox priest (who converted to Catholicism) into the discussion and his criticisms. I can bring many Catholic converts to the table and many, many Latin schisms (including the reformation)…but I do not play your little games. 😉
 
I have not insulted you.
Yes, you have. You are extraordinarily uncharitable.
I’ve simply pointed out that the Orthodox Churches have not made disciples of all nations
Outright lies. Another insult to the entire Orthodox Church. May Ss Cyril and Methodius pray for you.
The Orthodox priest that I quoted above seems to hold pretty much the same view.
That convert became quite anti-Orthodox after his conversion. Like yourself.😦
 
Yes, you have. You are extraordinarily uncharitable.
Outright lies. Another insult to the entire Orthodox Church. May Ss Cyril and Methodius pray for you.
Sts. Cyril and Methodius were Orthodox in communion with Rome.👍
That convert became quite anti-Orthodox after his conversion. Like yourself.😦
Did he ever call the EO “heretics”? If he didn’t, I wouldn’t say he was/is “anti-Orthodox.”

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Augustine on Peter? Let’s continue reading, shall we?
Again…primacy is not supremacy. 😉

What you fail to realize in your long list of copy and pasting, is that none of these quotes–and none of the Church Fathers speak about the successors of St Peter as supreme infallible pontiffs. Vatican one and the ultramontanes solifified that one for you. And ever since, amateur theologists as yourself have been trying to read supreme infallibility back into the Scriptures and into the Church Fathers. It is not there. It never was. As a matter of fact, many of the bishops at the first Vatican council were horrified by what Pius IX did. But I understand that you have no choice but to attempt to defend it.

Let us see what one of the bishops at the council said:
"Our weakness at this moment comes neither from Scripture nor the Tradition of the Fathers nor the witness of the General Councils nor the evidence of history. It comes from our lack of freedom, which is radical. An imposing minority, representing the faith of more than one hundred million Catholics, that is, almost half of the entire Church, is crushed beneath the yoke of a restrictive agenda, which contradicts conciliar traditions. It is crushed by commissions which have not been truly elected and which dare to insert undebated paragraphs in the text after debate has closed. It is crushed by the commission for postulates, which has been imposed from above. It is crushed by the absolute absence of discussion, response, objections, and the opportunity to demand explanations; The minority is crushed, above all, by the full weight of the supreme authority which oppresses it".
Bishop Francois Le Courtier @ Vatican I
 
If you want to center the thread on the Papacy I would be happy to discuss it but I will not carry it on in this thread, it is not the subject. No offense.
Your Latin brethren continue to make it the focus. 🤷
 
Aha! Now I see that this theory of the keys being linked to Isaiah 22 comes from James Akin. He seems to be quoted more than the Church Fathers! 😃
Actually, I think it was Scott Hahn who first proposed it (not sure). The interpretation of the keys in Isaiah 22 is an exegetical fruit of “covenant theology” - a not unorthodox manner of interpreting Scripture that originated with the Protestants. But Scott Hahn would not have exegeted Isaiah 22 as a foreshadowing Matthew 16 as a Protestant, but only after his eyes were opened upon coming to the Catholic Faith.

Or perhaps Mr. Akin has read enough Fathers to realize that St. Gregory the Wonderworker utilized those very passages in Isaiah 22 (regarding the keys) as a reference to the ability in the teaching ministry to be able to explain the mysteries of God. And given that other ECF’s view the keys given to St. Peter as also connected to his teaching ministry - VIOLA!

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Rome was Orthodox. 😉 Would they be today? 😉
Of course!😛
So the “H” word is the benchmark?
I believe so. Once you decide someone is a “heretic,” (whether theologically, philosophically, intellectually, etc.), the attitude normally comes with the bias and prejudice that is characteristic of being “anti-something.” Basically, you become close-minded on the matter and will only see the bad things. I don’t see how an Eastern Catholic priest believing in a better way to unity can be “anti-Orthodox.” Being “anti-disunity” is not tantamount to being “anti-Orthodox”---- except, I suppose, as viewed from the perspective of those particular Orthodox who define Orthodoxy as inherently anti-ecumenical.

Blessings
 
Your Latin brethren continue to make it the focus. 🤷
I understand, but as I said, as far as my position stands, we are all Catholics (East and west) latin or Orthodox and the seperation between west and east can be healed and I am sure will be as Jesus wills and through the guiding grace of the Holy Spirit but this perticular debate is only a distraction from the resolution and its core can only serve pride, not the issues now being delt with by our earthly guides. I have in the past pursued this debate myself without hesitation but When I see us debate over this now It seems sad and I am sure it is not pleasing to our Lord and Savior. I respect the Orthodox for their traditionalism and devotion just as I respect the Latin rite and I know the seperation did not come from God, so I will no longer take part on behalf of the instigator if you get my drift. My pride would be the driving force and I wont allow it. :o
 
Of course!
I think not. 😉
I believe so. Once you decide someone is a “heretic,” (whether theologically, philosophically, intellectually, etc.), the attitude normally comes with the bias and prejudice that is characteristic of being “anti-something.”
How about heterodox?
Basically, you become close-minded on the matter and will only see the bad things. I don’t see how an Eastern Catholic priest believing in a better way to unity can be “anti-Orthodox.” Being “anti-disunity” is not tantamount to being “anti-Orthodox”---- except, I suppose, as viewed from the perspective of those particular Orthodox who define Orthodoxy as inherently anti-ecumenical.
Nice try. But I cannot tell you how many times people have tried to use Fr Chrysostom against the Orthodox while representing him as an Orthodox priest. It is dishonest. The good Rev has an evident bias–he must–else he would not have converted from the one true Church. 👍
 
I understand, but as I said, as far as my position stands, we are all Catholics (East and west) latin or Orthodox and the seperation between west and east can be healed and I am sure will be as Jesus wills and through the guiding grace of the Holy Spirit but this perticular debate is only a distraction from the resolution and its core can only serve pride, not the issues now being delt with by our earthly guides.
Yes. It will most undoubtedly be healed. But I believe Rome must reverse her post schism innovations. I believe the schism will be healed at end times.

Peace
 
Yes. It will most undoubetly be healed. But I believe Rome must reverse her post schism innovations. I believe the schism will be healed at end times.

Peace
Oh, you had to throw that in there didn’t you. You don’t know how hard it is for me to stand down… 🙂 your trying to draw me back into it aren’t you…:whistle:
 
Oh, you had to throw that in there didn’t you. You don’t know how hard it is for me to stand down… 🙂 your trying to draw me back into it aren’t you…:whistle:
LOL! Sorry. I was being a bit tongue and cheek. 😃
 
Yes. It will most undoubtedly be healed. But I believe Rome must reverse her post schism innovations. I believe the schism will be healed at end times.

Peace
The pontificate, which is permanent, and the apostolate, which is temporary, were, for a time, united in the same persons. Both were directly conferred by Jesus on His Disciples.

To Peter, Jesus gave the supreme pontificate, the supreme pastorate, over all the sheep of the fold. From Peter, in whom it had resided inits highest form, it would have been normal for the pontificate to descend into the body of the Church in a derived form, that of the episcopate. But God, anticipating on the operation of His own laws, can produce immediately what, in the regular course of things, would come about as a normal consequence; for instance He might create a tree already laden with fruit. So it was that Christ acted with His Apostles. He conferred on the Apostles the episcopal power of jurisdiction which, normally, should descend to them from Peter whose sheep they were. He conferred the apostolate on the Twelve directly, and not through Peter. “And it came to pass in those days that he went out into a mountain to pray, and he passed the whole night in the prayer of God. And when day was come, he called unto him his disciples; and he chose twelve of them whom he also named Apostles” (Luke 6:12-13). Now this apostolate would necessarily carry with it, as soon to be exercised, both the episcopal power of jurisdiction and the episcopal power of order.

Thus, then, Jesus gave directly to Peter the supreme pontificate or Papacy, and to the other Apostles the dependent pontificate or episcopate. Furthermore, He gave directly to the Twelve the privilege of the apostolate. In the first days of the Church, on the morrow of Pentecost, the permanent jurisdiction existed therefore whole and entire; but it was hidden as it were within the extraordinary jurisdiction; somewhat as a flower, already preformed, remains protected and hidden for a time in the enveloping folds of its calyx.

All the Twelve had the apostolate - their untransmissible privilege. Peter had the Papacy besides, and the others the episcopate - their transmissible dignity. St. John, St. James and St. Paul, for example, considered as Apostles - that is, as having power over the universal Church for its foundation - could not have successors, for the Church could not be founded twice. But considered as bishops, that is as simply possessing the plentitude of the power of order, and, in dependence on Peter, jurisdiction over a particular portion of the Church, they could have successors. Should these successors separate themselves from Peter they might indeed, by sacramental transmission, retain the fullness of the power of order. But they would at once lose the sole jurisdiction the Apostles could communicate - that is to say a jurisdiction to be exercised in dependence on that of Peter - and in this respect it would be of little use to them to occupy a see once founded by the Apostles, or to be, in virtue of mere historical continuity, the Apostles’ successors.
 
The pontificate, which is permanent, and the apostolate, which is temporary, were, for a time, united in the same persons. Both were directly conferred by Jesus on His Disciples.

To Peter, Jesus gave the supreme pontificate, the supreme pastorate, over all the sheep of the fold. From Peter, in whom it had resided inits highest form, it would have been normal for the pontificate to descend into the body of the Church in a derived form, that of the episcopate. But God, anticipating on the operation of His own laws, can produce immediately what, in the regular course of things, would come about as a normal consequence; for instance He might create a tree already laden with fruit. So it was that Christ acted with His Apostles. He conferred on the Apostles the episcopal power of jurisdiction which, normally, should descend to them from Peter whose sheep they were. He conferred the apostolate on the Twelve directly, and not through Peter. “And it came to pass in those days that he went out into a mountain to pray, and he passed the whole night in the prayer of God. And when day was come, he called unto him his disciples; and he chose twelve of them whom he also named Apostles” (Luke 6:12-13). Now this apostolate would necessarily carry with it, as soon to be exercised, both the episcopal power of jurisdiction and the episcopal power of order.

Thus, then, Jesus gave directly to Peter the supreme pontificate or Papacy, and to the other Apostles the dependent pontificate or episcopate. Furthermore, He gave directly to the Twelve the privilege of the apostolate. In the first days of the Church, on the morrow of Pentecost, the permanent jurisdiction existed therefore whole and entire; but it was hidden as it were within the extraordinary jurisdiction; somewhat as a flower, already preformed, remains protected and hidden for a time in the enveloping folds of its calyx.

All the Twelve had the apostolate - their untransmissible privilege. Peter had the Papacy besides, and the others the episcopate - their transmissible dignity. St. John, St. James and St. Paul, for example, considered as Apostles - that is, as having power over the universal Church for its foundation - could not have successors, for the Church could not be founded twice. But considered as bishops, that is as simply possessing the plentitude of the power of order, and, in dependence on Peter, jurisdiction over a particular portion of the Church, they could have successors. Should these successors separate themselves from Peter they might indeed, by sacramental transmission, retain the fullness of the power of order. But they would at once lose the sole jurisdiction the Apostles could communicate - that is to say a jurisdiction to be exercised in dependence on that of Peter - and in this respect it would be of little use to them to occupy a see once founded by the Apostles, or to be, in virtue of mere historical continuity, the Apostles’ successors.
Are you the author of this?
 
Thus, then, Jesus gave directly to Peter the supreme pontificate or Papacy There was no such thing as a “supreme pontificate” in the undivided church and St Peter was not a pope–he was an apostle.
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Tomster:
Peter had the Papacy besides
No.
St. John, St. James and St. Paul, for example, considered as Apostles - that is, as having power over the universal Church for its foundation - could not have successors, for the Church could not be founded twice.
Sts Peter and Paul founded the Church in Rome. St Peter founded the Church in Antioch.
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Tomster:
But they would at once lose the sole jurisdiction the Apostles could communicate - that is to say a jurisdiction to be exercised in dependence on that of Peter
There was no such thing as a pontificate of universal jurisdiction in the undivided church. That is a later innovation.
 
It is not. Start a thread if you care to show otherwise.
Mickey, if you think that your comment that I responded to is off topic, then I am happy for you to withdraw it. If not, then the point stands the four against one is historical nonsense.
 
Mickey, if you think that your comment that I responded to is off topic, then I am happy for you to withdraw it. If not, then the point stands the four against one is historical nonsense.
I do not believe that it is historical nonsense. If you would like to discuss it further then feel free to start a thread.

There you have it my friend! 👍
 
this thread reminds me of a family domestic dispute involving 4 brothers I responded to years ago. I feel like Someone should be sent to the motel for the night until things calm down…:blackeye:
 
Yes, you have. You are extraordinarily uncharitable.
Outright lies. Another insult to the entire Orthodox Church. May Ss Cyril and Methodius pray for you.
That convert became quite anti-Orthodox after his conversion. Like yourself.😦
Mickey-

I think we’re done.

I have not attempted or intended to insult you. If I had, you would know it. 😛 Ironically, you have launched into ad hominems against me and against Fr. Frank because you do not like what we’re saying. You certainly made no effort to deal with the charge that he (and Vladimir Soloviev) made regarding the fictional unity of the Orthodox.

I will simply point out the fact that the Orthodox Churches (note the plurality there) do note exhibit the four marks of the Church:

  1. *]You are not one; you are many.
    *]You may be holy; I hope you are, and I have no concerns or worries about that.
    *]You are not catholic; you have not made disciples of all nations - your are ethnically and nationally bound.
    *]You are Apostolic having maintained valid orders.

    Two out of four ain’t bad, I suppose, compared with the Protestant Christians, but it certainly isn’t four out of four. Lacking here, yours simply cannot be the true Church.

    Finally, thanks for your intercession with the two saints you mentioned; I could use all the prayers I can get.

    Of course, Dan, with whom you have been siding against me, disagrees that you should pray to them or that they can pray for me. Good luck convincing him otherwise. 👍
 
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