Why is praying to other people considered worship to many?

[badnewsbarrett]

I think that what we’re talking about has little to do with scientific evidence of brain activity. To worship is not just a chemical reaction or feeling. If I’m not intending to worship another being with what I do, then I’m not, regardless if the brain activity looks like I am on paper. What matters to God is the focus of our reverence due to Him, and that it’s not being given to others. Period.

I think you’re trying to hunt down the reaction we’re having during the conversations with others, and somehow use that to prove that whatever view you hold is justified. Science is indeed interesting and your questions are thought provoking, I admit, but I don’t think faith should be dictated directly by science, the two subjects go hand in hand, but I don’t think they intersect like that.

If you did look at my brain and it turns out that I am worshipping the Saints or Virgin Mary, then what? Would you really base your personal belief on what someone else is doing, be it right or wrong?

The Catholic Church says that asking the Saints and Virgin Mary for intercession is important for our faith, and that it’s good to do, and that only God is to be worshipped. That’s what Catholics are doing, and it’s part of a personal spiritual journey.

If you doubt they can hear us or something, then you doubt it.

I do have some doubts about how likely it is that “they” (persons who are deceased) can hear living people, but that’s not really the point. The point is that there is a clear distinction between dulia, hyperdulia, and latria, the general idea being that there are three distinct and entirely different things that you do depending on who you’re talking to. It’s a very important distinction- you don’t do the same thing at three different targets, you’re supposed to be doing three different things. My issue is this- if we did everything in our power to check that out and see if there is evidence that you are, in fact, doing different things in those different instances, I have doubts that there would be a clear distinction after all. Of course, I could be wrong- it well may be that the results of such an inquiry would help me better understand Catholic prayer and worship while engendering a greater appreciation for what it is you’re doing. But the closest examples of relevant research on the topic seem to indicate that this isn’t the likeliest outcome, despite the best of intentions- good intentions which, I should add, have never been absent in any of this other research. That is all.

Btw- I think this would pertain to a comparison of veneration vis a vis latrial worship. Asking God for something or asking a saint for something or asking your mom, friend, or co-worker for something would presumably all look like the same thing, and I don’t think that’s a point of contention.

 

[JonNC]

At the end of all of it, isn’t intent (mind/heart) the deciding factor? If I intend to worship God and I don’t intend to worship Mary and the Saints, no one knows it better than God himself.

There is no point in worshiping with words when the heart is far away from God. Mat 15:8

Some may not understand why people when asking for something go through it in an indirect manner. Of course we can pray direct to God. Of course we can also pray/ask friends/Mother of God who can "put in a good word for us " in a manner of speaking. Perhaps in certain culture, the direct approach is the preferred means. But there are also cultures where going through intermediaries is the cultural norm, especially when the requester feels embarassed/not worthy/feel insignificant to speak direct to God/Emperor/King/Minister etc.

You bring up a good point here. As non-Catholics, for whom the practice of invocation of the saints is not the norm, we need to recognize that for Catholics and Orthodox it is and has been the norm for centuries. On those grounds alone, we should be mindful of the great comfort it brings our Christians siblings, and therefore be reticent to condemn when the silent choice to simply refrain from the practice would be the charitable thing to do.

From a Lutheran perspective, our confessions say this:

But since neither a command, nor a promise, nor an example can be produced from the Scriptures concerning the invocation of saints, it follows that conscience can have nothing concerning this invocation that is certain. And since prayer ought to be made from faith, how do we know that God approves this invocation? Whence do we know without the testimony of Scripture that the saints perceive the prayers of each one?

If Catholics can find in scripture command, promise, and example for the practice, such that they have faith regarding it, then it seems to me this is one practice that, when done properly, does not harm the Gospel, and we should therefore, out of Christian love, hold our tongue.

Jon

 

[zz912]

I do have some doubts about how likely it is that “they” (persons who are deceased) can hear living people, but that’s not really the point.

Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such** a great cloud of witnesses**, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

Witnesses have to be able to see and hear, otherwise they aren’t witnesses.

 

[badnewsbarrett]

Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such** a great cloud of witnesses**, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

Witnesses have to be able to see and hear, otherwise they aren’t witnesses.

The great cloud of witnesses refers to those mentioned in Hebrews 11- Abel, who bears witness of personally interacting with God and then pleasing Him more than his brother. Enoch, who did not witness death but was taken from this earth by God. Noah, who witnessed some personal instruction from God and followed it. Abraham, who bears witness to many personal interactions with God including a very important covenant that was made with him. The list goes on, it is known as the Hall of Faith.

These people witnessed much while they were alive, and their function as witnesses to us (along with many more not listed by name) is that they witness to us- their example tells us something.

There are three possibilities as to what the role of these witnesses might be- one, they act as witnesses to us and that is all. Two, they witness in the sense that they observe us, and that is all- there is nothing being related to us by them. Three, they do both.

I think we can rule out number two- it seems pretty clear that the function of these great people is one that includes, first and foremost, an example to us and a testimony from which we must learn. I would be someone who favors number one, which upholds the word “witness” albeit not in quite the way that you would prefer. You would say the best option is number three, I’m sure, but it is not necessitated or placed on me by way of force so much as it aligns with what you think is best based on where you’re coming from. Number one aligns just as well with the verses that you cited, and your emphasis on the word “witnesses” does not sway the likelihood of either interpretation particularly much in any given direction.

These witnesses did indeed see and hear much, specifically (in most cases) directly from God, while they were alive. And the responded in faith, which is set out as an example (a testimony, a witness) for us to follow. In this sense, they are indeed witnesses. If I suppose that Adam, Enoch, Abraham Isaac and Jacob are not aware of who I am or particularly capable of seeing and hearing me now, that does not negate their function as witnesses- perhaps you’d prefer that I suppose they can see and hear me, but you have other reasons for that.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

I myself used to be highly against the Communion of Saints, and communicating with Mother Mary when I was a Protestant. However, I’m not sure why I connected worship and respect reserved for God alone with prayer.

If you do, then why?

If not, why do you think others do?

I think most people who have problems with prayers to saints don’t object so much to the saints’ intercession as they do with the attribution to particular saints of special powers that seem to go beyond the power of ordinary mortals–and that this power seems quasi-divine—and thus constitutes “dangerous territory” that nearly approaches worship.

 

[zz912]

I think most people who have problems with prayers to saints don’t object so much to the saints’ intercession as they do with the attribution to particular saints of special powers that seem to go beyond the power of ordinary mortals–and that this power seems quasi-divine—and thus constitutes “dangerous territory” that nearly approaches worship.

*2 Pet 1:4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

Acts 9:40 But Peter put them all outside, and knelt down and prayed; and turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, arise.” And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up.

Acts 5:25 so that they even carried out the sick into the streets and laid them on cots and mats, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them.

Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head **a crown *of twelve stars

Any “powers” the saints have is given them by God.

 

[zz912]

The great cloud of witnesses refers to those mentioned in Hebrews 11- Abel, who bears witness of personally interacting with God and then pleasing Him more than his brother. Enoch, who did not witness death but was taken from this earth by God. Noah, who witnessed some personal instruction from God and followed it. Abraham, who bears witness to many personal interactions with God including a very important covenant that was made with him. The list goes on, it is known as the Hall of Faith.

These people witnessed much while they were alive, and their function as witnesses to us (along with many more not listed by name) is that they witness to us- their example tells us something.

There are three possibilities as to what the role of these witnesses might be- one, they act as witnesses to us and that is all. Two, they witness in the sense that they observe us, and that is all- there is nothing being related to us by them. Three, they do both.

I think we can rule out number two- it seems pretty clear that the function of these great people is one that includes, first and foremost, an example to us and a testimony from which we must learn. I would be someone who favors number one, which upholds the word “witness” albeit not in quite the way that you would prefer. You would say the best option is number three, I’m sure, but it is not necessitated or placed on me by way of force so much as it aligns with what you think is best based on where you’re coming from. Number one aligns just as well with the verses that you cited, and your emphasis on the word “witnesses” does not sway the likelihood of either interpretation particularly much in any given direction.

These witnesses did indeed see and hear much, specifically (in most cases) directly from God, while they were alive. And the responded in faith, which is set out as an example (a testimony, a witness) for us to follow. In this sense, they are indeed witnesses. If I suppose that Adam, Enoch, Abraham Isaac and Jacob are not aware of who I am or particularly capable of seeing and hearing me now, that does not negate their function as witnesses- perhaps you’d prefer that I suppose they can see and hear me, but you have other reasons for that.

Your interpretation falls in two ways. First, how are you surrounded by witnesses who aren’t alive anymore to see you or surround you? Your personal interpretation of this passage just doesn’t jive.

Second, look later in the chapter, and it completely refutes your theory.

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the* spirits of the righteous made perfect**,*

It is ABUNDANTLY clear that the saints and angels in Heaven can see and hear us since we are approaching Mount Zion. (Side note: This is what happens at Mass, we are participating in the one sacrifice and worship that eternally happens in Heaven). The saints and angels are together with us, right now.

 

[ericc]

I do have some doubts about how likely it is that “they” (persons who are deceased) can hear living people, but that’s not really the point.
.

I think you should review your doubts. In Jesus transfiguration Luke 9:28 Jesus talked to Moses (confirmed dead) and Elijah (probably didn’t suffer death). In the case of Moses, dead men don’t talk do they? If they do, then they couldn’t be dead and Moses obviously can hear and talk and Jesus apparently could hold a conversation with him. If what you think is true that deceased people can not hear living people, then Jesus would be a participant in a fraud/scam and Peter/James/John were hallucinating or seeing a Moses double and that all 3 Gospel writers were mistaken.

We all prefer that dead bodies buried 6 ft under earth don’t talk (since 2nd coming hasn’t happened yet) but living saints do. This mental block is something you need to overcome. Remember the soul is immortal. (People who have experienced Near Death Experiences commented that the soul/mind floats above their dead bodies while still able to see/hear what hospital staff is doing to revive the body. This is for info only, not doctrine)