Why is predestination wrong

[SHW]

I believe if you ask around a little bit; you will get a confirmation on that there is a judgment for the wicked and another of rewards for the righteous. I’m not going to belabor this one; you will have to discover on your own.

This is not supported by Scripture. All the dead are at the General Judgment as I have referenced by using three or four Scripture passages in previous posts. Many persons who believe in “eternal security” have misinterpreted these Scripture passages so that they “seem to” support their belief in their doctrine of eternal security.

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.”

These “eternal security” adherents do not want to believe that their “recompensation for deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad” could possibly damn them. So they came up with the idea of a “separate” judgment for “believers” only.

But, they are incorrect. Their bad deeds, if these deeds are mortal sins against God’s commandments, will most certainly damn them.

Bema:
2. a raised place mounted by steps

1. a platform, tribune
2. of the official seat of a judge
3. of the judgment seat of Christ

Using your definition of Bema, there is still only ONE judgment. We must all appear before the Judgment seat of Christ and we will all be recompensed for our deeds, whether good or bad at this one judgment.

SHW

 

[fbl9]

…bracket here>>quote=postersName] blah blah blah, then

This is how you wrap each reply. if you have another one to wrap, then repeat

see how this works?
I was paraphrasing Paul on the first response.

Do the saved still sin? Yes, but the pattern and direction of their life is to be conformed to the image of Jesus.So if one is still saved while in a state of sin,what is the piont of repenting of any sin committed after they are “saved”?if your answer is bc one loses rewards…all i have to ask is isn’t being in heaven with Jesus good enough for you?or are you seeking to make yourself greater then some one else?

 

[PJM]

Why is predestination wrong?

1. It denies the reality of God, and Who and What God is?
2. It denies that God Created us for a purpose.
3. It fails to account for our intellects, minds (not brains), memory and freewills. All Spiritual, like God Himself.
4. It presupposes that God is not Just an or Fair.

Love and prayers,

 

[SHW]

I can’t imagine why you are attacking the “feeling”; I guess you have never “felt” like you sinned against God or “felt” like you shouldn’t have done this or that because it may have offended God. The context was not in the Christian life was it? Was it in the context of the question concerning loosing the blessing of assurance?

I am not saying that “feelings” do not have any merit. I am saying that we cannot put all of our trust in what our feelings tell us. We must “know” rather than just “feel.” I know that there is no “blessed assurance.” I would like to feel that I have it, but I know that I must obey God’s commandments in order to be saved. I know that I can sin against His commandments and then lose my salvation because of these sins. I can not be assured of my salvation until I die and meet Jesus.

I will follow Jesus and keep His commandments and hope in His mercy instead of relying on my “feelings”:

Matthew 19:16-22 “Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’” 20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.”

James 1:2-5 “My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.”

James 2:22 “Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?”

Revelation 3:1-2 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, ‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for** I have not found your works perfect** before God.”

This Church’s members are called Christians (you have a name that you are alive) but God says that they are spiritually dead because of their unsatisfactory works.

Originally posted by SHW: The key to understanding Romans 8:1 is “for those who are in Christ Jesus.” Please explain what “in Christ Jesus” means.

Originally posted by Seeking12: That is a very tough question to put into human words; so I pray God will help me here. I think it is best explained by ones life and by that life one’s actions toward Jesus and neighbors. Luke 10:27 Jesus gave two commandments; (paraphrasing) love God with all of your heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. The key is obedience to His word. Pray without ceasing, help those in need, visit the sick, the widows, those in prison. Have a savants heart toward your neighbor, which is anyone that God puts in your path. Be diligent in studying His word and sharing when the opportunity comes…etc etc. If you do these things you are in Christ and He is in you.

Good thinking!

1 John 2:5 “But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.”

We must keep His commandments in order to be saved. If we break His commandments and do not repent before death, then we will not be saved. We will not longer be “in Him” if we break His commandments. We must be “in Him” at death in order to be known by Jesus and enter eternal life with Him.

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

SHW

 

[Seeking12]

This is not supported by Scripture. All the dead are at the General Judgment as I have referenced by using three or four Scripture passages in previous posts. Many persons who believe in “eternal security” have misinterpreted these Scripture passages so that they “seem to” support their belief in their doctrine of eternal security.

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.”

These “eternal security” adherents do not want to believe that their “recompensation for deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad” could possibly damn them. So they came up with the idea of a “separate” judgment for “believers” only.

But, they are incorrect. Their bad deeds, if these deeds are mortal sins against God’s commandments, will most certainly damn them.

Bema:
2. a raised place mounted by steps

1. a platform, tribune
2. of the official seat of a judge
3. of the judgment seat of Christ

Using your definition of Bema, there is still only ONE judgment. We must all appear before the Judgment seat of Christ and we will all be recompensed for our deeds, whether good or bad at this one judgment.

SHW

All I can say to you is that if you find yourself in front of a Great White Throne; don’t look for me, i won’t be there.

 

[Seeking12]

I am not saying that “feelings” do not have any merit. I am saying that we cannot put all of our trust in what our feelings tell us. We must “know” rather than just “feel.” I know that there is no “blessed assurance.” I would like to feel that I have it, but I know that I must obey God’s commandments in order to be saved. I know that I can sin against His commandments and then lose my salvation because of these sins. I can not be assured of my salvation until I die and meet Jesus.

I will follow Jesus and keep His commandments and hope in His mercy instead of relying on my “feelings”:

Matthew 19:16-22 “Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’” 20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.”

James 1:2-5 “My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.”

James 2:22 “Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?”

Revelation 3:1-2 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, ‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for** I have not found your works perfect** before God.”

This Church’s members are called Christians (you have a name that you are alive) but God says that they are spiritually dead because of their unsatisfactory works.

Good thinking!

1 John 2:5 “But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.”

We must keep His commandments in order to be saved. If we break His commandments and do not repent before death, then we will not be saved. We will not longer be “in Him” if we break His commandments. We must be “in Him” at death in order to be known by Jesus and enter eternal life with Him.

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

SHW

The only problem with the statement “we must keep all of His commandments to be saved” is that no one can do it, which is the point of the commandments; that is why we are saved by God’s grace alone.

 

[Seeking12]

1. It denies the reality of God, and Who and What God is?
   1. It denies that God Created us for a purpose.
   2. It fails to account for our intellects, minds (not brains), memory and freewills. All Spiritual, like God Himself.
   3. It presupposes that God is not Just an or Fair.
   Love and prayers,

In case you do not know; you do now…you are showing unbelief in God.

 

[fbl9]

In case you do not know; you do now…you are showing unbelief in God.

Just because some one does not beleive the same delusions you have beeen taught to be true does not show an unbeleif in God…if it this were true we could echo the same to you.Which not one here has ever accused you of not beleiving in God,such great christian charity you have shown.
God bless and yes i do hope to see you at the white throne,where else would you be?

 

[SHW]

Originally posted by SHW: “We place ourselves under the law when we break God’s commandments and we are then judged by the law.”

Originally posted by Seeking12: "If you place yourself under the law, then you are going to be damned because God said in Galatians 2:16 “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.”

In Galatians 2:16, Paul is speaking of the Law of Moses. He is saying that circumcision, which was required by the Law of Moses, does not save and if they believe that circumcision saves, then they will lose their salvation. Only Jesus saves. Read Galatians 3 for further info on this.

The law of which I am referring to is the Royal Law. If we obey the Royal Law, then we are not judged by it. If we break the Royal Law, then we are judged by it.

The Royal Law is explained here: http://members.cox.net/studyhisword/ChristianLiberty.pdf

Originally posted by Seeking12: “Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’” Matthew 7:22-23

These people are very self deceived, the same people on the broad road…all the religious people who think because of their religious affiliation or because they profess Jesus are heading for heaven…their problem is they haven’t come to the Fountain of life, the Bread of life; Jesus Christ."

You are correct in saying that not all people, who profess Jesus as their Savior, are heading for heaven.
**
Religious affiliation does matter.** Jesus started one Church only. He gave this one Church His authority. He states in Luke 9 - Luke 10 that the 12 Apostles and His 70 disciples have His authority to teach:

Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”

No other religious denominations have His authority to teach. The Apostles appointed others to take their place and this is called Apostolic Succession. Peter shows us in Acts 1:15-26 how this was first done in the early Church. Paul explains how it was done later on in 2 Timothy 2:2 “And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.” Timothy was a Bishop of the Church. Only Bishops can consecrate new Bishops. (Philippians 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:1-10, Titus 1:4-9)

More about Jesus’ One, Holy, Catholic (universal), and Apostolic Church at members.cox.net/studyhisword/JesusBuildsHisChurch.pdf

SHW

 

[Seeking12]

In Galatians 2:16, Paul is speaking of the Law of Moses. He is saying that circumcision, which was required by the Law of Moses, does not save and if they believe that circumcision saves, then they will lose their salvation. Only Jesus saves. Read Galatians 3 for further info on this. This must be another teaching; if so, then throw out Galatians 2:16, then throw out Jesus commandment, you know love God and love neighbor, since that is the summary of the “Law of Moses”, then once one throws that out, then the whole thing can fall…

The law of which I am referring to is the Royal Law. If we obey the Royal Law, then we are not judged by it. If we break the Royal Law, then we are judged by it. Any law God’s give, man will break. Isn’t this why Christ suffered and dies to cover our sins, past, present and future. I believe you are mixing up saving grace with God’s blessing.

The Royal Law is explained here: http://members.cox.net/studyhisword/ChristianLiberty.pdf

You are correct in saying that not all people, who profess Jesus as their Savior, are heading for heaven. I did not say that; only the few that actually possess, not profess are going to be in heaven. **
**
Religious affiliation does matter. Jesus started one Church only. He gave this one Church His authority. He states in Luke 9 - Luke 10 that the 12 Apostles and His 70 disciples have His authority to teach: If your boss delegates something to you; did he give up his authority? Are all of God’s elect are in the Catholic church? **Affiliation has nothing to do with a right relationship with Christ. The Apostles are the human instruments God used to convey His saving message; anyone who knows that saving message can share it with others in ways afforded by the gifts God has given to each person. It is the message, not the messenger that has the saving power…that is so basic to Scripture. When you will see the term “foundation” used throughout the Bible; it is always Christ or the Word. **

Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”

No other religious denominations have His authority to teach. The Apostles appointed others to take their place and this is called Apostolic Succession. Peter shows us in Acts 1:15-26 how this was first done in the early Church. Paul explains how it was done later on in 2 Timothy 2:2 “And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.” Timothy was a Bishop of the Church. Only Bishops can consecrate new Bishops. (Philippians 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:1-10, Titus 1:4-9)

More about Jesus’ One, Holy, Catholic (universal), and Apostolic Church at members.cox.net/studyhisword/JesusBuildsHisChurch.pdf

SHW

 

[SHW]

The only problem with the statement “we must keep all of His commandments to be saved” is that no one can do it, which is the point of the commandments; that is why we are saved by God’s grace alone.

Scripture disagrees with your statement:

1 John 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”

If we do not keep His commandments, then we do not love Him. When we truly love God, it is not a burden to obey Him. We want to please Him. We want to abide in Him and want Him to abide in us.

John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

John 15:10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.”

1 John 2:3 “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.”

John 14:23 “Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.”

1 Corinthians 7:19 “Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.”

1 John 2:4 “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

If you don’t keep God’s commandments, then you will not be saved.

Titus 1:16 “They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.”

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.”

If we don’t keep God’s commandments, then we have denied Him by our works. If we deny Him by breaking His commandments, then He will deny us eternal life. We must endure to the end of our lives in obedience to His commandments in order to be saved.

Romans 12:1 “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.”

Paul states that it is indeed reasonable for Christ to expect us to present our bodies as living sacrifices, holy and acceptable to God. After all, the Creator of the universe humbled Himself and became Man, and suffered and died an agonizing death, in order to present a perfect Sacrifice to His Father so that we could be reconciled to His Father. (Hebrews 2:9) He did this out of His mercy and love for us. We did not and could not earn our reconciliation with God by any works of our own.

However, we must maintain (continue in) our reconciliation with Him in order to be saved.

Must we keep God’s commandments in order to be saved? Yes!

This is why Paul states:

1 Corinthians 9:27 “But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.”

Paul states that if he is not watchful, then he can lose his salvation, even though he has preached the gospel of salvation to others.

Praise God, we have the Holy Spirit helping us:

Philippians 2:12-13 “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.”

1 Corinthians 11:1 “Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.”

Philippians 4:13 “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.”

This includes keeping God’s commandments.

2 John 1:8-11"Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds."
**
We must keep God’s commandments in order to be saved.**

SHW

 

[SHW]

All I can say to you is that if you find yourself in front of a Great White Throne; don’t look for me, i won’t be there.

Time will tell.
SHW

 

[SHW]

Originally Posted by SHW:
In Galatians 2:16, Paul is speaking of the Law of Moses. He is saying that circumcision, which was required by the Law of Moses, does not save and if they believe that circumcision saves, then they will lose their salvation. Only Jesus saves. Read Galatians 3 for further info on this.

Originally posted by Seeking12: This must be another teaching; if so, then throw out Galatians 2:16, then throw out Jesus commandment, you know love God and love neighbor, since that is the summary of the “Law of Moses”, then once one throws that out, then the whole thing can fall…

Circumcision was the sign of God’s covenant with Abraham and continued to be required of all male Jews in the Old Testament. Acts 7:8

1 Corinthians 7:19 “Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.”

Paul states that the Old Covenant circumcision law is no longer the law; keeping the commandments of God is the law that matters, because keeping the commandments maintains our reconciliation with God. Keeping the commandments of God are necessary in order to be saved.

SHW

 

[Seeking12]

Scripture disagrees with your statement:

John 15:10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.”

We must keep God’s commandments in order to be saved.

SHW

**Even though the point is that are live pattern or direction is to live a life of obedience; we will never do it to perfection because we are fallen creatures. So I’m going to focus on this one particular verse because it makes the clearest illustration of my point that this should be the direction and won’t be the perfection of this life on earth, which is quite different.

Can anyone keep the Lords commands as Jesus kept the Father’s? Yes or no? In your scenario, you are saying yes; in mine I am say it is impossible. So what must be the context of John saying over and over we must keep all the commandments; it can’t mean 100% perfection, the we are all heading for hell.

As long as one keeps trying to earn their way to God; they will never see God.**

 

[SHW]

Originally posted by Seeking12: Affiliation has nothing to do with a right relationship with Christ. The Apostles are the human instruments God used to convey His saving message; anyone who knows that saving message can share it with others in ways afforded by the gifts God has given to each person. It is the message, not the messenger that has the saving power…that is so basic to Scripture. When you will see the term “foundation” used throughout the Bible; it is always Christ or the Word.

You are correct in that Jesus is the foundation. Jesus founded His Church.

But He built His Church upon Peter. Jesus ministers to His disciples through His Church. The leaders of His Church have His authority to represent Him and His New Covenant much like Moses had the authority of God in the Old Covenant and presented the Law to the Israelites. This is why it is called the “Law of Moses.”

Peter is officially commissioned by Jesus as head of His Church after Peter is given a special grace by Jesus’ Father in order to answer Jesus’ question correctly.

Matthew 16:15-17 “He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.”

This is why Jesus appoints Peter as the head of His Church and gives him the “keys of the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 16:18-19 “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock (and upon you, Peter) I will build my church 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

If we believe that the Bible is true and is the inerrant inspired Word of God, then we must take this statement of Christ seriously. Jesus gives the “keys of the kingdom of heaven” to Peter alone and this “giving of keys” signifies Peter’s primal authority over the other apostles and the Church.

God chose to make a covenant with Abram in the Old Testament so He changed his name to Abraham and made him the father of His chosen people; the father of many nations (cf. Genesis 17:1-6).

Jesus chose Simon to be the person upon whom He builds His Church of His New Covenant (Testament) so He changes Simon’s name to Peter which means rock because Jesus is our spiritual rock. Peter is chosen to be Jesus’ spiritual representative on earth so he is called rock also. (cf. 1 Corinthians 10:1-5)

Jesus instructs Peter to feed and tend His flock. (cf. John 21:15-17)

Matthew 28:18-20 tells us that Jesus deliberately commissioned His apostles (the twelve men who had responded to His call) to establish His Church and this Church is to be Christ’s representative on earth.

Jesus also gives Peter and the other apostles the authority (power) to “bind and loose” in Matthew 18:17-19 and the power “to forgive and retain sins” in John 20:22-23.

For example: Moses gave permission for divorce in the Old Covenant and God honored Moses’ decision even though it was not what God desired. God upheld Moses’ decision in heaven because Moses acted with God’s authority on earth as His chosen representative.

However, Jesus restores the original purpose of marriage in His New Covenant and divorce is no longer allowed (under most circumstances) by His New Covenant Church. (Matthew 19:3-8)

Mark 3:14-19 “Then He appointed twelve, that they might be with Him and that He might send them out to preach, 15 and to have power to heal sicknesses and to cast out demons: 16 Simon, to whom He gave the name Peter; 17 James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James, to whom He gave the name Boanerges, that is, “Sons of Thunder”; 18 Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Cananite; 19 and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. And they went into a house.”

Jesus gives them the power to cast out demons and heal the sick. (Jesus actually does these things through them because they represent Him on earth. It is His power that accomplishes all of these things; but He uses them as His instruments to do His will.) He gives them His authority to represent Him on earth, because He is in heaven with His Father and is no longer physically present on earth like He was with the Apostles.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

The apostles teach as “one” authority (Church) when they decide matters concerning faith and morals.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, 2 whether by word or our epistle.”

Both Oral Traditions and Written Traditions (Holy Scripture and its Interpretation) must be believed and both of these are taught by the Church and this teaching of both is what is called Sacred Tradition.

1 Corinthians 11:1-2 “Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.”

During Jesus’ last talk to His apostles, gathered in the upper room, He tells them, “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you” Matthew 15:16.

He repeats this promise to His apostles in John 16:23.

Jesus asked the Father to “sanctify them (the apostles) in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth” John 17:17-19.

It is clear Jesus is praying for the apostles here, because He continues: “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they may also be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me” John 17:20-22.

By His word, then, Jesus established the Church so that “those who believe” what His Church teaches shall hear the truth of Jesus’ Gospel.

Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”

At the beginning of Acts we learn that before Pentecost Peter led the eleven remaining apostles to select one of Jesus’ disciples “to become with us a witness to his resurrection” to replace Judas who was no longer an apostle. (cf. Acts 1:15-26).

Apostolic succession is clearly intended for the Church and the first example is recorded here. Then, on Pentecost, Peter, having received the Holy Spirit, preached and prophesied to the Jews. Three thousand were baptized, “and they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers” Acts 2:42.

This authority of Peter and the apostles is passed down to other bishops. 2 Timothy 2:1-2 “You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”

Timothy, a bishop ordained by Paul, was instructed to pass on his teaching to others so that they can teach others these same things that he himself learned from Paul. This “passing down” of authority throughout the ages is called “apostolic succession.”

Who are the Bishops in your church? Who appointed them?

SHW

 

[SHW]

**Even though the point is that are live pattern or direction is to live a life of obedience; we will never do it to perfection because we are fallen creatures. So I’m going to focus on this one particular verse because it makes the clearest illustration of my point that this should be the direction and won’t be the perfection of this life on earth, which is quite different.

Can anyone keep the Lords commands as Jesus kept the Father’s? Yes or no? In your scenario, you are saying yes; in mine I am say it is impossible. So what must be the context of John saying over and over we must keep all the commandments; it can’t mean 100% perfection, the we are all heading for hell.

As long as one keeps trying to earn their way to God; they will never see God.**

We must keep the commandments in order to enter eternal life. Jesus’ command; not mine. If we fail, which we will probably do; then we must repent, confess, etc. and start over again because we must be in the state of grace when we die.

Matthew 19:17 “But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Salvation is a life-long process. We must be on guard to be in the state of grace when our life is finished on earth. We do not know the time of our death, so we better be ready to make an accounting to God at all times.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 “For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.”

James 2:14 “What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?”

James 2:20 “But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?”

James 2:26 “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

You cannot discount Scripture verses just because they do not agree with your interpretation of Scripture. It is not Scripture that is in error. Scripture is inerrant. It is you, the interpreter, who is in error.

2 Peter 3:16 “as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.”

SHW

 

[Seeking12]

You are correct in that Jesus is the foundation. Jesus founded His Church.

But He built His Church upon Peter. Jesus ministers to His disciples through His Church. The leaders of His Church have His authority to represent Him and His New Covenant much like Moses had the authority of God in the Old Covenant and presented the Law to the Israelites. This is why it is called the “Law of Moses.”

Peter is officially commissioned by Jesus as head of His Church after Peter is given a special grace by Jesus’ Father in order to answer Jesus’ question correctly.

Matthew 16:15-17 “He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.”

This is why Jesus appoints Peter as the head of His Church and gives him the “keys of the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 16:18-19 “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock (and upon you, Peter) I will build my church 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

If we believe that the Bible is true and is the inerrant inspired Word of God, then we must take this statement of Christ seriously. Jesus gives the “keys of the kingdom of heaven” to Peter alone and this “giving of keys” signifies Peter’s primal authority over the other apostles and the Church.

God chose to make a covenant with Abram in the Old Testament so He changed his name to Abraham and made him the father of His chosen people; the father of many nations (cf. Genesis 17:1-6).

Jesus chose Simon to be the person upon whom He builds His Church of His New Covenant (Testament) so He changes Simon’s name to Peter which means rock because Jesus is our spiritual rock. Peter is chosen to be Jesus’ spiritual representative on earth so he is called rock also. (cf. 1 Corinthians 10:1-5)

Jesus instructs Peter to feed and tend His flock. (cf. John 21:15-17)

Matthew 28:18-20 tells us that Jesus deliberately commissioned His apostles (the twelve men who had responded to His call) to establish His Church and this Church is to be Christ’s representative on earth.

Jesus also gives Peter and the other apostles the authority (power) to “bind and loose” in Matthew 18:17-19 and the power “to forgive and retain sins” in John 20:22-23.

For example: Moses gave permission for divorce in the Old Covenant and God honored Moses’ decision even though it was not what God desired. God upheld Moses’ decision in heaven because Moses acted with God’s authority on earth as His chosen representative.

However, Jesus restores the original purpose of marriage in His New Covenant and divorce is no longer allowed (under most circumstances) by His New Covenant Church. (Matthew 19:3-8)

Mark 3:14-19 “Then He appointed twelve, that they might be with Him and that He might send them out to preach, 15 and to have power to heal sicknesses and to cast out demons: 16 Simon, to whom He gave the name Peter; 17 James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James, to whom He gave the name Boanerges, that is, “Sons of Thunder”; 18 Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Cananite; 19 and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. And they went into a house.”

Jesus gives them the power to cast out demons and heal the sick. (Jesus actually does these things through them because they represent Him on earth. It is His power that accomplishes all of these things; but He uses them as His instruments to do His will.) He gives them His authority to represent Him on earth, because He is in heaven with His Father and is no longer physically present on earth like He was with the Apostles.

to be continued…

Could Peter be the foundation after you said yourself that Christ is the foundation, which is the true foundation, Christ or Peter?

 

[Seeking12]

Continued:

The apostles teach as “one” authority (Church) when they decide matters concerning faith and morals.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, 2 whether by word or our epistle.”

Both Oral Traditions and Written Traditions (Holy Scripture and its Interpretation) must be believed and both of these are taught by the Church and this teaching of both is what is called Sacred Tradition.

1 Corinthians 11:1-2 “Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.”

During Jesus’ last talk to His apostles, gathered in the upper room, He tells them, “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you” Matthew 15:16.

He repeats this promise to His apostles in John 16:23.

Jesus asked the Father to “sanctify them (the apostles) in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth” John 17:17-19.

It is clear Jesus is praying for the apostles here, because He continues: “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they may also be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me” John 17:20-22.

By His word, then, Jesus established the Church so that “those who believe” what His Church teaches shall hear the truth of Jesus’ Gospel.

Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”

At the beginning of Acts we learn that before Pentecost Peter led the eleven remaining apostles to select one of Jesus’ disciples “to become with us a witness to his resurrection” to replace Judas who was no longer an apostle. (cf. Acts 1:15-26).

Apostolic succession is clearly intended for the Church and the first example is recorded here. Then, on Pentecost, Peter, having received the Holy Spirit, preached and prophesied to the Jews. Three thousand were baptized, “and they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers” Acts 2:42.

This authority of Peter and the apostles is passed down to other bishops. 2 Timothy 2:1-2 “You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”

Timothy, a bishop ordained by Paul, was instructed to pass on his teaching to others so that they can teach others these same things that he himself learned from Paul. This “passing down” of authority throughout the ages is called “apostolic succession.”

Who are the Bishops in your church? Who appointed them?

SHW

**

Do you really believe all that?

That is a very interesting belief. I can’t really comment further because it would come across as offensive and that is not my intention.**

 

[guanophore]

Actually, Christ speaks to us through His Word. So you are wrong. Christ’s wisdom is what arbitrates.

Are you claiming that everyone who reads scripture and interprets it separately from the Apostolic Tradition that produced it is acting according to Christ’s wisdom?

I agree, it is Christ’s wisdom that arbitrates. The problem is not the Word, or the Christ, but the warped vessel through whom they travel. Our perceptions and education (or lack of it) filter what we read, and our understanding (or lack of it) interpret the “wisdom” of God.

This is why there are so many differing opinions about what the Word means.