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Crucified
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What do you mean by predestination? If you tell us what predestination is first, then maybe we can find out if there is anything wrong with it.
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J
JWB152
Guest
The catholic church is the Ordinary means through which salvation is accomplished, but it is not the only means. There are many non-catholic Christians who are better Christians than some catholics. By Ordinary I mean as ordained by God, through his only Son, Jesus the Christ. Jesus was alive when He handed over the Keys to the kingdom, to Peter. That is why the Catholic church is said to have Divine living authority. It is a historical fact that the church has this authority. God shows His love for us by allowing salvation to come from outside the catholic church also.
God bless You, John J. Gillette
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Crucified
Guest
I believe that God calls all as well.
But we must distinguish between the general call, which is the outward gospel call, and the effectual call, the inward call of the Spirit. Please notice how men inevitably respond to the fist:
The general call: Luke 14
“A man once gave a great banquet and INVITED many. And at the time for the banquet he sent his servant to say to those who had been INVITED, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’ BUT THEY ALL ALIKE BEGAN TO MAKE EXCUSES. The first said to him, ‘I have bought a field, and I must go out and see it. Please have me excused.’ And another said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to examine them. Please have me excused.’ And another said, ‘I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.’
Did you notice that the general invitation received a universal rejection? Why is this so? It is so because “men hate the light, and will not come to the light.”
But does God simply stand back and give invitations, and do nothing more? If He did, then according to this text, none would respond favorably. No, God does more . . . He does much more. Please notice how God takes matters into his own hands:
The effectual call: Luke 14
“Then the master of the house became angry and said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly to the streets and lanes of the city, and BRING IN the poor and crippled and blind and lame.’ And the servant said, ‘Sir, what you commanded has been done, and still there is room.’ And the master said to the servant, ‘Go out to the highways and hedges and COMPEL people to come in, that my house may be filled.”
Did you notice how God when from inviting, to bringing, even to compelling? This is what is necessary for sinners to respond favorably to the gospel call. The outward gospel call must be attended by the inward effectual call of the Holy Ghost.
I think that we have to take into consideration what the Bible actually teaches, and deal with actual passages of Scripture when trying to determine whether a things is true or not. If we simply engage on the basis of human logic and conceptual propositions - we will inevitably be led into error.
Please - when discussing any doctrine - let us try to remain upon the lighted path of God’s word. And let’s deal with a passage at a time, maybe two or three at the most (as we employ Scripture to interpret Scripture).
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mikeledes
Guest
So you accept all of TULIP?
BTW, a belated welcome to Catholic Answers Forums.
God Bless,
Michael
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Crucified
Guest
Actually - the terms “foreordaination” and “foreknowledge” in the Bible are the same word in the Greek. (See 1 Pet. 1:2 and verse 20 - they are the same word).
But the connotation of fore-KNOWLEDGE is a much deeper one, for it carries with it the idea of “loving before hand.”
Now - I know I said that we should only deal with a few passages at a time - but I was speaking exegetically - not systematically. I need to establish a proper word study, because your whole argument is based upon the assumption you have attatched to one particular word. Please bear with me.
Consider these passages:
“Adam KNEW his wife” (Gen. 4:1)
“Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I have not KNOWN a man?” (Luk. 1:34)
“You only Israel have I KNOWN among all the families of the earth” (Amos 3:2)
“I never KNEW you, depart from me you workers of iniquity” (Mat. 7:23).
Now - we see that by Eve knowing Adam - Cain was born, so this “knowledge” must have been an intimate and covenantal knowing of love and union. This goes for Luke 1:34 as well, where Mary is said to not have entered into union with any man.
Also - when we see that God only knew Israel among all of the families of the earth - we understand that this cannot be speaking about mere cognitive awareness - for God knows all nations and families of the earth. Again - this “knowledge” must be an intimate and covenantal knowing of love and union. This goes for Matthew 7 as well - which we should now consider:
When we see that Jesus NEVER KNEW the false prophets, again we are led to conclude that this “knowledge” is not a mere cognitive recognition of one’s person. Certainly this is the case - for just as God knows every nation, He obviously every single person.
This knowledge of which the Scriptures speak - contains within it the idea of LOVE; and shows that it carries with it the idea COVENANTAL UNION.
The last thing to note is that in Romans 8 we see that those whom God foreknew, He predestined. Now - this term “foreknew” has reference *to people *and NOT their actions, as you intimated.
“Those whom He did fore - KNOW He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son” (Romans 8:29)
The text reads: THOSE WHOM He foreknew - and not - THOSE THINGS that they did He foreknew.
This is very significant.
The Bible teaches that we are "Elect, according to the fore - KNOWLEDGE of God the Father " (1 Pet 1:2).
The word - “Foreknowledge” as found in 1 Peter 1:2, as I had mentioned above - is a verb: which is an action not an attribute of God. God is seen here as actively having moved, thus taking the initiative upon a person [in loving them and entering into covenant with them before they were even born].
If the word - “Foreknowledge” was a NOUN - then it would simply be speaking of some attribute of God - mentioning the fact that He has knowledge of the future; and thus the passage might as well use the term for omniscience.
However this is not the case - as FOREKNOWLEDGE is a verb - the action of God choosing to love someone AHEAD of TIME; that is *“loving them with an everlasting love.” *
This love did not begin in time - and thus - nothing in time can ever change or shape or even affect this love.
Nothing in time was the cause of this love - and nothing in time can stop this love. If God loves you my friend - then He has always loved you and will always love you.
Men and their actions cannot make God love them - and cannot keep God from loving them - for God is sovereign - even in the dispensation of His love.
And if God loves you - God will save you - for “love never fails” and “keeps no record of wrongs” (1 Corinthians 13). If God loves you with His everlasting love - (which is only in Christ - Rom. 8:39) - then He will certainly draw you and save you IN TIME - to the praise of the glory of His grace.
“The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with loving-kindness have I drawn thee.” (Jeremiah 31:3)
“For if any man loves God, the same is KNOWN of Him” (1 Cor. 8:3).
I am sorry to flood you with passages - but the word foreknowledge could not be properly developed and demonstrated without the use of multiple texts.
I needed to show you however - that whatever your position on predestination is - it ought to be according to Scripture - and not popular traditions which we have embraced and continue to pour into passages and into the definition of biblical terms.
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mikeledes
Guest
Are you a five point or four point Calvinist?
Question: Did God love Satan and Adam prior to their fall?
BTW, you sound very familiar.Thanks and God Bless,
Michael
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Crucified
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I reject the term “Calvinist” but as far as the Doctrines of Grace are concerned - I hold to all five.
I believe that God loved Adam before the fall - for he redeemed him from the fall - didn’t he?
He slayed an animal, and took the coat and covered his nakedness - right?
Satan - I do not think so.
What do you mean?
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mikeledes
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PEPCIS
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Hi John,
The difference I would make with you is to contend that the Holy Catholic Church is (to me) simply an euphemism for the Universal Church. As such, it would contain elements of all legitimate Christian sects. We may not agree on that, but that is what I hold to.
God Bless
P
PEPCIS
Guest
P
PEPCIS
Guest
Personally, I had never thought of that before. But the answer seems to be, logically, “Yes.” But as for loving AFTER the fall? It would seem that God continued to love Adam after the fall, for he clothed him and his wife.
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mikeledes
Guest
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Crucified
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Oh - on this forum?
I belong to other forums as well - so if maybe from a different forum - but obviously I am not holding two accounts on the same one - that would be tiresome, and a bit confusing don’t ya think?
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mikeledes
Guest
The person I was thinking about is no longer a member of this forum. But you reminded me of him.
God Bless,
Michael
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Crucified
Guest
Oh. Well I hope he was a nice guy - and good looking too!The person I was thinking about is no longer a member of this forum. But you reminded me of him.
God Bless,
Michael
lol.I also hope that he was passionate about the Lord Jesus Christ and his holy word - because then that would tell me that you have a right to say he resembles me . . . !!
Thanks for the chit chat!
But what do you think about Predestination?
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mikeledes
Guest
I guess he was nice. I don’t know about the good looking part, though.Oh. Well I hope he was a nice guy - and good looking too!
Extremely passionate.also hope that he was passionate about the Lord Jesus Christ and his holy word - because then that would tell me that you have a right to say he resembles me . . . !!
That it’s true!But what do you think about Predestination?
I posted a quote from a Catholic commentary a few posts back and that pretty much explains what I believe on this issue. I have a Catholic and a more or less Augustinian understanding of predestination. I disagree with Arminians on the role of man’s choice in election - though I believe that man remains truly free under the influence of grace - and I disagree with Calvinists on the issue of perseverance of the saints. I believe in unconditional election, but - like Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, and even Luther - I don’t believe all of those who are justified are counted among those who are elect for glory. I believe, as did all the eary Church Fathers - including Augustine - and upheld by Martin Luther that not all of those who are justified are predestined. In other words, all who are predestined to glory will be called, justified, and glorified. These can never be lost and will never perish. However, as the Bible clearly indicates, salvation can be lost. Those who do not persevere to the end were not predestined.I would like to discuss this further, but I have to go. Have a blessed weekend.
God Bless,
Michael
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sandusky
Guest
Mike, are you a five point Catholic, or a one pointer?Are you a five point or four point Calvinist?
Question: Did God love Satan and Adam prior to their fall?
Thanks and God Bless,
Michael
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Crucified
Guest
Ok - I am a bit confused.
Romans 8 says:
“Those whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
But are you saying that:
“ALL those whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and ALL whom he called, them he also justified: and YET NOT ALL whom he justified, did he actually glorify.” ??
Can you give me some evidence that Augustine and Luther held to this view of the elect losing their salvation? And more importantly, can you provide me with some evidence from Scripture that a predestined person can “lose their salvation” ??
What then is one actually predestined to?
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PEPCIS
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mikeledes to Crucified:
Here’s my “take” on this:
Luke 6:35:
Mark's paraphrase:
Just as God is “kind” to everyone, so we too should be the same.
This is true. I’m not sure why you make that statement in the context of our exchange??? Are you saying that God will ultimately “save” Satan?Question: Did God love Satan and Adam prior to their fall?
Personally, I had never thought of that before. But the answer seems to be, logically, “Yes.” But as for loving AFTER the fall? It would seem that God continued to love Adam after the fall, for he clothed him and his wife.
Luke says God is merciful with the wicked as well.
Here’s my “take” on this:
Luke 6:35:
Here is my paraphrase of that:
Mark's paraphrase:
My translation: God could choose to get rid of all evil and evil-doers in this world, but He does not. Instead, He showers His mercy and kindness upon all men. The sun which He created shines upon me, but it also shines upon the unjust. The rain that causes crops to grow feed not only me, but also the rapists and the murderers in our midst.
Just as God is “kind” to everyone, so we too should be the same.
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sandusky
Guest
What Mike, and most Catholics use, are all of the conditional “if statements” in the NT, as well as the warnings and descriptions of those who will go to hell, such as Gal 5:19ff. Futhermore, he will go into the OT, and use Eze 18 and 33, forgetting that the penalty for transgression in the OT was “physical death,” and he’ll attempt to make a case from that, forgetting completely that the OT was based upon works, and obedience to the law.
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