Why is predestination wrong

[SHW]

Why is predestination wrong?
It’s not!!! Anyone who teaches that salvation is earned is contradicting the Lord Jesus Christ and the Bible.

Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8, “…for by grace you have been saved through faith, and* that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God, not of works*, lest anyone should boast.” (Emphasis Added)

Paul is speaking of Jesus’ death to atone for Original Sin (Adam’s sin). Only Jesus could atone for Original Sin. No works of man could atone for Original Sin.

Romans 5-18-19 “Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.”

John wrote in John 1:12-13 “…as many as received him [Christ], to them he gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe his name; who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (Emphasis added)

God wills (desires) that all men be saved and Jesus died as a ransom for all, yet not all men are saved. Why not? The Free Will of each man determines if he is saved or not.

1 Timothy 2:3-7 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.”

The Bible teaches that because we are so depraved in our sin that salvation must be a gift of God, for the will of our own fallen nature wants nothing to do with God, let alone acknowledging a need to be saved.

Noah et al were righteous men. They lived and died before Jesus was born. This type of righteousness is about personal sin (works), not Original Sin since they still needed Jesus to atone for Adam’s sin in order for them to enter heaven after they died. They waited in “Abraham’s bosom” (Limbo) until Jesus opened the gates of heaven for them:

Genesis 6:9 “this is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.”

Luke 16:22-23 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”

“Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as he chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, by which he made us accepted in the Beloved.” Ephesians 1:3-6 (Emphasis added)

We were predestined by God’s foreknowledge and because of God’s foreknowledge of our personal actions (works) while we are alive on earth.

1 Peter 1:1-3 “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:”

To be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

In John 6:65 Jesus himself speaks of not receiving any but those who have been given by the Father. “…no one can come to me unless it has been granted to Him by my father.”

The Father only gives those persons to Jesus whom He has known by His foreknowledge that they will be true to Jesus’ teachings until their deaths.

Matthew 10:22 “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.”

It’s pretty clear that the Bible teaches predestination. None are righteous and desiring of God in their human nature, therefore it is a miracle that God has even chosen but one for salvation! God has chosen some for salvation and others for destruction, all to glorify himself! He gives us the faith and power to believe in him! -Igy

God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth and Jesus died as a ransom for all. 1 Timothy 2:3-7

There are two types of righteousness and both are necessary for salvation: A. The righteousness of Jesus who atoned for Adam’s Original Sin and this righteousness is given to us as a free gift. B. Our own personal righteousness (faith and good works) which is “proof” of our faith in Jesus Christ.

Romans 11:22-23 “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,”

We are judged by our “works” on Judgment Day as “proof” of our good or bad faith. Matthew 25:31-46

Dead faith [faith without good works or faith with bad works (sin)] will not save us. James 2:14-26

God gives us all the graces necessary to be saved. Whether we cooperate with His grace or not determines our final destination: heaven or hell.

People were predestined for heaven before they were born only because God knew by His foreknowledge that they would be in the state of grace when they died. He did not, by whim, predestine some persons to heaven and some persons to hell. Persons end up in heaven or hell according to their own personal actions as stated in Matthew 25:31-46 above and also:

2 Corinthians 5:9-11 “Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.”

This paper has more Scripture verses pertaining to predestination: http://members.cox.net/studyhisword/Predestined.pdf"

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

I saw on EWTN a quote, possibly from a Marian apparition, that praying the Rosary every day is a sign of predestination. I am happy to have learned of this after I started praying the Rosary every day.

Like anyone can become predestined. But then, even after knowing of this, the Rosary doesn’t become less efficacious. Can then perseverance also a sign of predestination?

If I stop now, would I still be “predestined”? I think not, if I just prayed the Rosary to be predestined instead of for much more noble reasons, say the love for God.

“Still” and “predestined” used together, that’s funny.

 

[SHW]

I saw on EWTN a quote, possibly from a Marian apparition, that praying the Rosary every day is a sign of predestination.

“Still” and “predestined” used together, that’s funny.

I agree. It is funny.

I was actually “predestined” for heaven (or not predestined), only once, before I was actually born since God knew by His foreknowledge before the foundation of the world whether I would still be faithful to Christ at the time of my death, regardless of my initial justification.

I can be cut off the Vine (Jesus) and grafted back onto the Vine many times in the realm of Time due to my sins and repentances. Romans 11:22-23 However, the “state” of my soul at my death determines where I will reside for eternity: heaven or hell. If my soul has sanctifying grace I will be saved. If my soul is dead with sins, then I will not be saved.

I will not find out for sure if I was “predestined” for eternal life until my own “Particular” Judgment which occurs immediately after my death. However, God knew before the foundation of the world where I will spend eternity: with Him or without Him. I hope that I am one of His “elect.” My hope for salvation is in Jesus Christ and His Church with Its Sacraments.

I dearly hope to hear these words: “Well done, good and faithful servant.”

“Praying the Rosary” can be a sign of “predestination” as is “perseverance in keeping God’s commandments.” 1 Peter 1:1-3 We are the “elect” according to the foreknowledge of God.

Matthew 10:22 “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end (of his life, following me and obeying me) will be saved.”

 

[PEPCIS]

We do not know for sure if we were predestined or not, but God knows. We must endure to the end of our lives in the grace of God in order to inherit eternal life.

Salvation is NOT by works. As George Whitfield, that incredible Protestant once stated in a letter to John Wesley:

[SIGN]“Suppose I went a little more round about, and told you, that the death of Christ was not sufficient, without our death being added to it; that you must die as well as Christ, join your death with His, and then it would be sufficient. Might you not then, with a holy indignation, throw dust in the air, and justly call me a setter forth of strange doctrines? And now then, if this be not only absurd, but blasphemous, to join the intercession of saints with the intercession of Christ, as though his intercession was not sufficient; or our death with the death of Christ, as though his death was not sufficient; judge ye, if it be not equally absurd, equally blasphemous, to join our obedience, either wholly or in part with the obedience of Christ, as if that was not sufficient. And if so, what absurdities will follow the denying that the Lord, both as to his active and passive obedience, is our righteousness?’ – Whitfield[/SIGN]

(Mark 13:13) He predestined us using His foreknowledge and this predestination was done before the foundation of the world according to what our free will choices would be for our entire lives.

First of all, we do not have “free will.” That is an illusion. True freedom of the will is translated into existence by power in the members of our body, and in accordance to the power of the mind to conceive what it wants.

Only God has such power in His being to perform what He will. Man is limited in his being, and therefore can only be free to do what he is able to perform. Not only that, but Man is CAPTIVE to Satan, unless he is released from that captivity by the power of God through Jesus Christ.

Second of all, predestination is not according to God’s omniscience. To put it another way, if He chose us that we should be holy, His foresight of our future holiness was not the cause of His choice. That is absurd reasoning.

“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.”

Here is something that I learned recently regarding the Greek usage of the word for “foreknowledge.” In the immediate context, it appears that it means “God’s foreseeing.” However, there are other places where the Bible uses “foreknowledge” that we can understand how it is that we should interpret the meaning of this word.

For example, in Acts 2:23 it states: [SIGN]“Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, …”[/SIGN]

If you notice, the two phrases which are linked together are “determined purpose” and “foreknowledge.” They are linked by a greek grammatical form called the Granville-Sharp Rule. This makes the two nouns synonymous for emphasis, like saying “right and good” or “evil and wrong.” The two terms show a symmetry that links their meanings together to form one defining characteristic. In this case, it shows clearly that “foreknowledge” means “God’s determinative will.”

Another verse you could have used to express the meaning of foreknowledge was in the same chapter that you chose your other verse: I Peter 1:20

[SIGN]“He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world…”[/SIGN]

It would be absurd to say that the Father merely “foreknew” the coming of Christ. While God certainly looked into the future to see this happening, He also MADE IT HAPPEN. His choice to make it happen was not caused by His foreknowledge. Jesus was appointed to the office of Christ. All circumstances relating to His coming were arranged in advance. History was made for Jesus, not He for history.

 

[SHW]

Originally Posted by PEPCIS
Salvation is NOT by works. As George Whitfield, that incredible Protestant once stated in a letter to John Wesley: “Suppose I went a little more round about, and told you, that the death of Christ was not sufficient, without our death being added to it; that you must die as well as Christ, join your death with His, and then it would be sufficient. Might you not then, with a holy indignation, throw dust in the air, and justly call me a setter forth of strange doctrines? And now then, if this be not only absurd, but blasphemous, to join the intercession of saints with the intercession of Christ, as though his intercession was not sufficient; or our death with the death of Christ, as though his death was not sufficient; judge ye, if it be not equally absurd, equally blasphemous, to join our obedience, either wholly or in part with the obedience of Christ, as if that was not sufficient. And if so, what absurdities will follow the denying that the Lord, both as to his active and passive obedience, is our righteousness?’ – Whitfield

The death of Christ is sufficient. However, He did not choose to redeem us without our free will cooperation with His grace. Until we die, we have hope of salvation; no guarantee of salvation. We would have no need or use for hope if we truly had a guarantee.

For example: I can hope to attend the Bible Study but until I am actually physically at the Bible Study, there is no guarantee that I will be there. I could become ill or have car trouble, etc. and not be able to attend even though my original plan and hope was to attend.

1 Thessalonians 5:7-10 “For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.”

Psalm 119:166 “LORD, I hope for Your salvation, And I do Your commandments.”

We must hope and also obey in order to be saved. This is faith and works in action and both are ordinarily needed for salvation.

Jesus died to atone for Adam’s sin. If Adam had not sinned, Jesus would not have had to die. No human “works” could ever atone for Adam’s sin. Only Jesus, the one Mediator between God and Man (because only Jesus is both God and Man,) could repair the damage that Adam’s sin caused. This is what is meant by Ephesians 2:8-10 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” This is faith and also works as proof of our faith for our salvation.

Philippians 2:12 “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;”

Adam had free will. We were never deprived of our own free wills after Adam sinned. His sin had the consequences of making us all enemies of God (no longer heirs of heaven) and brought death to us all but Jesus restored our relationship with God by His death and resurrection and through Baptism we are sanctified (made right) with God. We now have a “clean slate” which we can keep clean or not keep clean by our own free will choices.

1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” This is describing Baptism.

Romans 5:9-12 “Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—”

How are we saved by His life? We must imitate Him in doing the will of His Father (obey His commandments).

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

To be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continuation…

What if we continue to sin willfully after Jesus initially saves us?

Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”

We lose our salvation after we are saved (received the knowledge of the truth), if we continue to live in sin.

Who is saved?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,”

1 Peter 4:16-18 “Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter. 17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now “If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

God saves those who obey His gospel (His commandments). Salvation is conditional upon our cooperation with His grace.

John 15:10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.”

To be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continuation:

First of all, we do not have “free will.” That is an illusion. True freedom of the will is translated into existence by power in the members of our body, and in accordance to the power of the mind to conceive what it wants.

Only God has such power in His being to perform what He will. Man is limited in his being, and therefore can only be free to do what he is able to perform. Not only that, but Man is CAPTIVE to Satan, unless he is released from that captivity by the power of God through Jesus Christ.

This is your definition of “free will.”

God gave Adam free will and He also gives it to each one of us. He does not want us to obey Him because we are slaves; He wants us to obey Him because we love Him. This is a choice.

Second of all, predestination is not according to God’s omniscience. To put it another way, if He chose us that we should be holy, His foresight of our future holiness was not the cause of His choice. That is absurd reasoning.

Genesis 1:26 “Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Because God chose to make us in His image, He chose to give us free will. He desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth and Jesus died as a ransom for all, but not all men are saved. They are not all saved because of their own free will actions.

1 Timothy 2:3-7 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4** who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time**, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.”

2 Timothy 1:8-11 “Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.”

Jesus called us not because of our own “future” works, but according to His own purpose and grace before time began (He loved us and wanted us to spend eternity in heaven with Him and this was His purpose for calling us.) We are ultimately judged by our works but we were not initially called by our works.

Predestination in the Biblical sense means that God knew who would be saved and who would not be saved before they were even created.

1 Peter 1:17-21 “And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.”

Jesus was foreordained to be the savior of His creation (man) by this foreknowledge of God. God knew that Adam would sin before Adam was created. God knew that if He created Adam then mankind would need a Savior. It is because God loved us that He had mercy on us in His foreknowledge and foreordained to send His Son to save us before creation actually happened.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

However, Jesus also said: Matthew 7:19-21 “19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”
**
Both of these are true statements.** We are judged on Judgment Day by our works (fruits) as proof of our faith or lack of faith. (Matthew 25:32-46)

To be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

Romans 8:28-30 “And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

1. God foreknew those persons who would love God.
2. Because of His foreknowledge of all their future actions on earth, He predestined those persons who would love Him to eternal life and these persons would be imitators of Christ (conform to the image of His Son).
3. Those He foreknew and predestined, He also called.
4. Those persons whom He foreknew and predestined and called, He also justified.
5. Those whom He foreknew and predestined and called and justified, He also glorified.

This was all “done” in His foreknowledge before Time began.

It would be absurd to say that the Father merely “foreknew” the coming of Christ. While God certainly looked into the future to see this happening, He also MADE IT HAPPEN. His choice to make it happen was not caused by His foreknowledge. Jesus was appointed to the office of Christ. All circumstances relating to His coming were arranged in advance. History was made for Jesus, not He for history.

Jesus was foreordained to be our Savior because God knew that Adam would sin before Adam was even created. This fact was known because of His omniscience. Foreknowledge is a characteristic of His omniscience. So God knew that if He created Adam, then we would need a Savior. This is why Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be the Christ, the Savior. **We would need a Savior because of Adam’s sin ** so His Son did the will of His Father and came to earth to save us.

John 5:28-30 “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent me.”

Blessings,
SHW

 

[PEPCIS]

"SHW:

We do not know for sure if we were predestined or not, but God knows. We must endure to the end of our lives in the grace of God in order to inherit eternal life.

The death of Christ is

sufficient.

Is that why you add to it?

SHW:

However, He did not choose to redeem us without our free will cooperation with His grace.

Well, that sounds like your word against the Word of God. God’s Word specifically states that there is absolutely NOTHING that you, or anyone, can do to contribute to their own salvation.

SHW:

Until we die, we have hope of salvation; no guarantee of salvation. We would have no need or use for hope if we truly had a guarantee.

John 5:24 says: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

In other places we read where Jesus makes clear that only those who do have everlasting life will prove that they are real believers by their actions. But it must be remembered that the actions don’t prove that you are a believer, but only the actions of a truly contrite BELIEVING heart.

I certainly accept your premise that you must be about God’s business, but it is wrong to state that this is the way to heaven. It would be a shame for Mother Theresa to hear those terrible words “Be gone from me, you that work iniquity.” Because we know that it is not sufficient to simply believe and do, but to believe with all thy heart, soul, mind and strength.

Shortly after beginning work in Calcutta’s slums, Mother Teresa faltered terribly.

“Where is my faith?” she wrote. “Even deep down… there is nothing but emptiness and darkness… If there be God — please forgive me.”

“What do I labor for?” she asked in one letter. “If there be no God, there can be no soul. If there be no soul then, Jesus, You also are not true.” see this

The burden of Mother Theresa’s lack of hope is what such a despicable doctrine leads to. Instead, you should be teaching one of hope and assurance.

SHW:

For example: I can hope to attend the Bible Study but until I am actually physically at the Bible Study, there is no guarantee that I will be there. I could become ill or have car trouble, etc. and not be able to attend even though my original plan and hope was to attend.

Exactly, which is why you have no free will, because you lack the power to CONFIRM it 100%. That is why Christ said to let your yeas be yeas and your nays be nays. You can’t promise anything because you lack the power to bring it about.

SHW:

Jesus died to atone for Adam’s sin. If Adam had not sinned, Jesus would not have had to die. No human “works” could ever atone for Adam’s sin. Only Jesus, the one Mediator between God and Man (because only Jesus is both God and Man,) could repair the damage that Adam’s sin caused.

This is a serious error. Jesus died to atone for the sin of mankind, not just for Adam’s sin. The Bible teaches in Romans 5:8 [SIGN]“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”[/SIGN]

Romans 5:18 states [SIGN]“by the righteousness of Jesus the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”[/SIGN]

There are numerous other instances where the Word clearly categorizes the elect as anyone who accepts His message. Not one instance can you find that the Word states that Christ came to atone for the sins of Adam.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

First of all, we do not have “free will.” That is an illusion. True freedom of the will is translated into existence by power in the members of our body, and in accordance to the power of the mind to conceive what it wants.

Only God has such power in His being to perform what He will. Man is limited in his being, and therefore can only be free to do what he is able to perform. Not only that, but Man is CAPTIVE to Satan, unless he is released from that captivity by the power of God through Jesus Christ.

This is your

definition of “free will.”

It is the only definition that conforms to logic. The term “Free Will” is one that means “the will is free to make choices unfettered by outside interferences and influences.” It also carries the understanding that the body must be able to carry out that will. If the body cannot, then the will is captivated by the infirm body.

The Bible teaches that only God is omnipotent, and is therefore capable of bringing about anything that He should will. The Bible also teaches that man is in bondage to Satan. If you are in bondage to Satan, then you have no free will.

SHW:

God gave Adam free will and He also gives it to each one of us. He does not want us to obey Him because we are slaves; He wants us to obey Him because we love Him. This is a choice.

Adam may have had free will BEFORE the fall into sin, but Adam did not have free will after, because if he had a vote in the matter, he would surely have chosen “easy street” (nice garden, great weather, no toiling) over the life that God inflicted upon him.

SHW:

Predestination in the Biblical sense means that God knew who would be saved and who would not be saved before they were even created.

You’re putting the cart before the horse. If He chose us that we should be holy, His foresight of our future holiness was not the cause of His choice. As a matter of Biblical fact, He chose us while we were still sinners, in spite of the fact that we would NEVER choose Him.

The Bible clearly teaches that man cannot, of his own “free will” turn to God, but that God MUST make the first move.

[SIGN]“We love Him because He FIRST loved us.” 1 John 4:19[/SIGN]

SHW:

Jesus was foreordained to be the savior of His creation (man) by this foreknowledge of God.

You’re expecting me to believe that God “foresaw” that Jesus was faithful, therefore God allowed Jesus to participate in the salvation plan based upon God’s foreknowledge that Jesus would do the right thing??? That’s insanity.

SHW:

God knew that Adam would sin before Adam was created. God knew that if He created Adam then mankind would need a Savior. It is because God loved us that He had mercy on us in His foreknowledge and foreordained to send His Son to save us before creation actually happened.

Which means that God foreordained based upon what HE foreKNEW, not what he “foresaw.” There is a HUGE difference.

 

[SHW]

Is that why you add to it?

Well, that sounds like your word against the Word of God. God’s Word specifically states that there is absolutely NOTHING that you, or anyone, can do to contribute to their own salvation.

Please show me ONE verse in the Bible which states that “there is absolutely NOTHING that you, or anyone, can do to contribute to their own salvation.” I can’t find it or anything similar. And if you also cannot find it, then why do you believe this statement as “fact?”

John 5:24 says: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

“Believeth” means more than “head” knowledge. One must also “follow” in order to prove that one does truly “believeth.” Satan and the other fallen angels “believe” in God but since they do not also"obey" Him, they were not saved. All the angels had free will as do all men. Free will for all men did not stop with Adam’s fall from grace.

Matthew 16:24 “Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.”

Follow me means imitate me. We need more than belief, we need action as in “we must imitate Christ in doing the will of His Father in heaven” in order to be saved. “Doing the will of His Father in heaven” means to obey His commandments. Notice that we must also deny ourselves and take up our crosses before we can actually really follow Jesus? After Jesus initially saves us through the Sacrament of Baptism and thereby sanctifies us, we must then cooperate with God’s grace in order to continue to be saved. (cf. 1 Corinthians 6:11)

Matthew 7:21-24 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

Do you believe that you will be saved even if you do not obey God’s commandments?

God’s Word says you will not be saved if you do not obey God’s commandments. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

1 John 2:3 “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.”

1 John 2:4 “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

What happens to liars?
Revelation 21:8 “But the cowardly, unbelieving,[a] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

If we do not keep God’s commandments, we will not be saved. It takes more than Jesus’ sacrifice in order for us to inherit the kingdom of God. We must keep God’s commandments in addition to His Sacrifice in order to be saved. He chose this way for us to be saved in His Plan of Salvation and I don’t question why since His ways are not my ways and His thoughts are not my thoughts. I obey Him to the best of my ability however.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

In other places we read where Jesus makes clear that only those who do have everlasting life will prove that they are real believers by their actions. But it must be remembered that the actions don’t prove that you are a believer, but only the actions of a truly contrite BELIEVING heart.

We are judged by our actions (works, fruits) on Judgment Day. Since our actions can condemn us to hell, then I say that good works are necessary for salvation.

2 Corinthians 5:9-11 “Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.”

1 Peter 4:8 "And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins.”

There would be no need to “cover a multitude of sins” if your reasoning is correct.

Jude 1:20-23 “But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23**]but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire**, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.”

We must “keep ourselves in the love of God.” This means that we can also choose “to not keep ourselves in the love of God.” Free will choice.

It is free will action when a sinner sins. We are supposed to help these sinners by pulling them out of the fire (damnation). If “Predestination” in the Calvin sense is true as many believe, then why should we bother to pull them out of the fire, since they supposedly will be lost anyway?

Romans 11:22 “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

Salvation is conditional as Paul states in Romans above.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

The burden of Mother Teresa’s lack of hope is what such a despicable doctrine leads to. Instead, you should be teaching one of hope and assurance.

You have no understanding of “the dark night of the soul.” She did not lack hope. Read the Psalms and you will find similar laments. God withdraws from people in order to see if they will still follow Him. She passed the test!

Exactly, which is why you have no free will, because you lack the power to CONFIRM it 100%. That is why Christ said to let your yeas be yeas and your nays be nays. You can’t promise anything because you lack the power to bring it about.

We each are to have single mindedness and not be tossed by the wind. This is what Jesus was talking about.

James 1:6 “But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.”

Ephesians 4:14-15 “that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—”

This is a serious error. Jesus died to atone for the sin of mankind, not just for Adam’s sin. The Bible teaches in Romans 5:8 [SIGN]“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”[/SIGN]

Romans 5:18 states [SIGN]“by the righteousness of Jesus the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”[/SIGN]

Yes, Jesus did die for all of our sins. However, we must cooperate with His Plan of Salvation in order to continue to be saved.

Romans 11:22 “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

There are numerous other instances where the Word clearly categorizes the elect as anyone who accepts His message. Not one instance can you find that the Word states that Christ came to atone for the sins of Adam.

Romans 5:8-21 “8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Death in Adam, Life in ChristTherefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

I believe I found several verses for you.

How are we saved by His Life? We must imitate Him in doing the will of His Father in order to continue to be saved after He initially saves us.

 

[PEPCIS]

"SHW:

The death of Christ is

sufficient.

PEPCIS:

Is that why you add to it?

Please show me ONE verse in the Bible which states that “there is absolutely NOTHING that you, or anyone, can do to contribute to their own salvation.” I can’t find it or anything similar.

Sure. It’s in John 1:12-13 [SIGN]“All those who received Jesus, it was given to them the power to become the sons of God, yes, all those that believe on his name. And these which were born again were not born because of any relation to someone by blood, nor because their body was stronger than any other man, nor because they were any smarter than someone else. It was simply because of God’s power alone.”[/SIGN]

“Believeth” means more than “head” knowledge. One must also “follow” in order to prove that one does truly “believeth.”

Close. One WILL follow, because his nature has been re-oriented. He is a new creature. If I could change an aardvark into a Gorilla, then the new gorilla would stop eating grubs, and begin to eat bananas. The new gorilla would stop walking on all fours, and begin to climb the trees and thump its chest. It would have only the power and nature which God bestowed upon it.

[SIGN]“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Cor 5:17)[/SIGN]

The Bible teaches that before we became children of God, that [SIGN]“we used to walk according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.” Ephesians 2:2-3[/SIGN]

In other words, we are no longer a creature of lust. God has given us a new nature, whereby we WILL walk differently. We WILL no longer eat grubs and walk on all fours, but we WILL embrace the new life. Many people can fake this, and have. But if you watch someone long enough, you will know them by their fruits. (Matt 7)

An apple tree, if it is changed into a cherry tree, CANNOT bring forth apples any longer. Neither can a wicked decietful man bring forth fruits that are the fruits of the Holy Spirit, UNLESS HE IS FIRST CHANGED into a different nature to serve God.

SHW:

Satan and the other fallen angels “believe” in God but since they do not also"obey" Him, they were not saved. All the angels had free will as do all men. Free will for all men did not stop with Adam’s fall from grace.

“Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.” (Jer 13:23)

You CAN’T change your nature by your own will. Only God can do that.

SHW:

Do you believe that you will be saved even if you do not obey God’s commandments?

No. But I do believe that I will be saved, even if I should falter and not do His commandments. DOING can NEVER save. Only the blood of Christ can save. No sacrament, no exercise. Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

SHW:

It takes more than Jesus’ sacrifice in order for us to inherit the kingdom of God.

Every time you add to Christ’s sacrifice by works, you are adding your own “sacrifices.” That says that Christ’s sacrifice is not sufficient for your salvation. I say, along with the apostle Paul: [SIGN]"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law

."(Romans 3:28)[/SIGN]

Further, Paul stated that [SIGN]"the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith."Galatians 3:24)[/SIGN]

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

In other places we read where Jesus makes clear that only those who do have everlasting life will prove that they are real believers by their actions. But it must be remembered that the actions don’t prove that you are a believer, but only the actions of a truly contrite BELIEVING

heart.

We are judged by our actions (works, fruits) on Judgment Day. Since our actions can condemn us to hell, then I say that good works are necessary for salvation.

I agree, that our actions are the means by which we are judged, because the external shows what has happened internally. Without the justification by faith occurring, there would never be any external signs. When God burns all the chaff away, all that will be left will be the true works of righteousness (those things produced by a believing heart).

SHW:

We must “keep ourselves in the love of God.” This means that we can also choose “to not keep ourselves in the love of God.” Free will choice.

True, but you can’t choose your salvation. That is a complete work of God.

SHW:

It is free will action when a sinner sins.

It is a “free will action” but only in the context in which he is “free.” It’s like saying that a man with no arms and legs can save himself from drowning when thrown into the sea. He has free will to NOT drown, but he does not have the means by which to effect his own salvation. Therefore, he is not TRULY free.

Continuing on in this analogy, if God were to save a sinner, it would be like God giving the man legs and arms, so that the man can now freely choose to live.

SHW:

We are supposed to help these sinners by pulling them out of the fire (damnation). If “Predestination” in the Calvin sense is true as many believe, then why should we bother to pull them out of the fire, since they supposedly will be lost anyway?

If I can’t effect my own salvation, then I certainly could NEVER effect any one elses. However, God commands us to preach His Word, and so we must. We can’t pull them from the fire, only God can do that.

 

[PEPCIS]

Romans 11:22 “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

This verse was written to the Jews, not to Christians. Paul was just showing them how the prophecies of the OT which spoke of cutting off the people of Israel in favor of the Gentiles was being performed before their very eyes. The message was intended to get them to understand their place in God’s salvation plan.

SHW:

Romans 5:8-21 “8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

This is one of my favorite verses, except that I prefer the King James word “commended” over the “demonstrated” in this version. That’s because Commendations are given to those who deserve it. Yet this verse clearly states that sinners who were UNDESERVING of salvation were given the commendation of salvation - the free gift of God, without doing a dang thing to earn it!!!

 

[DD2007]

Ordo Salutis:

1. election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

:tiphat:

 

[SHW]

Originally Posted by SHW
Please show me ONE verse in the Bible which states that “there is absolutely NOTHING that you, or anyone, can do to contribute to their own salvation.” I can’t find it or anything similar.

by Pepcis: Sure. It’s in John 1:12-13
“All those who received Jesus, it was given to them the power to become the sons of God, yes, all those that believe on his name. And these which were born again were not born because of any relation to someone by blood, nor because their body was stronger than any other man, nor because they were any smarter than someone else. It was simply because of God’s power alone.”

John 1:12-13 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave** the right to become children (sons)** of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

I believe John specifically said that they had the right to BECOME the children/sons of God. This Scripture verse does not tell you how to receive Him or remain sons of God. Salvation is a lifelong process and this process does not end until death. First Jesus justifies us and then we must continue in this justification until death if we want to inherit eternal life.

Every Scripture verse is True. So you have to find all of the Scripture verses which pertain to a certain subject and look at all of them together in order to get a more complete teaching. These letters were written as supplements to oral teaching; not as replacements for oral teaching. Jesus never told anyone to go out and write a Bible. He founded a Church which was to “teach” and make disciples of all nations. This Church has His authority and the Bible which it compiled is a teaching tool of the Church. These epistle letters were written to further explain some topic for which the Church members needed more instruction in order to understand more completely.

For example: How do we “become” the sons of God when we are enemies of God?"

Romans 5:10 “or if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”

We must first be reconciled with/to God by Jesus’ Sacrifice on the Cross. How is this reconciliation accomplished?

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

We must believe in Him in order to have everlasting life.

Is this all that we must do? No.

Mark 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

We must also be baptized in order to be saved.

What does Baptism do for us?

1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

Baptism sanctifies us. It makes us holy and we are reconciled to God.

Is this all that is necessary to remain “sons of God?”

No. We must also take up our cross and FOLLOW after Jesus in order to continue to be saved after our initial justification by Jesus’ death on the cross.

Matthew 10:38 “And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.”

What else is necessary in order to remain sons of God?

Ephesians 5:5-7 “For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.”

If you do these things, then you become a “son of disobedience” and you will receive the wrath of God instead of eternal life.

1 John 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”

We do not love God if we do not keep His commandments (do the will of the Father in heaven).

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

We do God’s will by keeping His commandments and producing good fruit.

Matthew 3:10 “And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree (person) which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire (hell).”

How long must we be obedient to God’s commandments and bear good fruit?

Mark 13:13 “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end (of his life) shall be saved.”

Salvation is a life-long process. First we are justified by Christ through Baptism, then we must “follow” Christ in imitation of Him in doing His Father’s will by obeying His commandments and bearing good fruit.

These are just a few of the Scripture verses which pertain to Salvation.

To be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

Salvation can be gained and lost until death. After death, our soul’s status remains as it is at death for eternity.

Ezekiel 33:11-18 "Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death (damnation) of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’

12"And you, son of man, say to your fellow citizens, 'The righteousness of a righteous man will not deliver him in the day of his transgression, and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he will not stumble because of it in the day when he turns from his wickedness; whereas a righteous man will not be able to live by his righteousness on the day when he commits sin.’

13"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die.

14"But when I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and he turns from his sin and practices justice and righteousness,

15if a wicked man restores a pledge, pays back what he has taken by robbery, walks by the statutes which ensure life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

16"None of his sins that he has committed will be remembered against him. He has practiced justice and righteousness; he shall surely live.

17"Yet your fellow citizens say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right,’ when it is their own way that is not right.

18"When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, then he shall die in it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them.

20"Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways."

We can repent of our sins and be reconciled anytime before death (even many times) because God is merciful and desires all men to be saved. I recommend that we remain in God’s grace by keeping His commandments and bearing good fruit at all times. Deathbed conversions are not very likely if one has lived a life of sin.

More on other subjects later.

Blessings to you,
SHW