Why is predestination wrong

[SHW]

by Pepcis: In other words, we are no longer a creature of lust. God has given us a new nature, whereby we WILL walk differently. We WILL no longer eat grubs and walk on all fours, but we WILL embrace the new life. Many people can fake this, and have. But if you watch someone long enough, you will know them by their fruits. (Matt 7) …… You CAN’T change your nature by your own will. Only God can do that.

We are sanctified when we come to Christ and are baptized. This changes us (our natures) into “sons of God.” Why doesn’t EVERYONE walk differently (after they come to Christ) for their whole lives? They are not all faking their original conversions. We must cooperate with God’s grace given to us at Baptism in order to remain saved.

Mark 4:13-19 “And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.”

FREE WILL choices determine your eternal destiny after you come to Christ and are initially reconciled to Him by His Sacrifice on the Cross through Baptism (1 Corinthians 6:11). Some endure only for a time following Christ and/or become unfruitful and are thereby lost. Notice they were saved initially (sanctified by Baptism which means “made Holy”) but they lost their salvation (sanctification) by their own FREE WILL choices. God changed their natures through Baptism but they did not cooperate with His grace and therefore they lost their salvation.

Hebrews 10:26-30 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, ‘The LORD will judge His people.’”

Notice that Scripture says “IF we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth (after we are justified), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.” In other words, we reject God’s grace in our souls when we sin after our reconciliation with God by our own free will choices.

1 Corinthians 3:16-18 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.”

God comes to live in our souls after we are baptized. We defile the temple of God (in our soul/spirit) when we sin grievous sins and we lose our salvation. Notice that God was residing in our souls before our grievous sin. We were in God’s grace but we lost His grace by our sin.

“Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.” (Jer 13:23)

Jeremiah is telling them to change their ways and to do good instead of evil. This a choice of our own free wills.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued…

But I do believe that I will be saved, even if I should falter and not do His commandments. DOING can NEVER save. Only the blood of Christ can save. No sacrament, no exercise. Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Your belief is contrary to Scripture.

1 John 2:4 “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

What will happen to those persons who claim to know Him but do not keep His commandments? (Liars, in other words.)

Revelation 21:8 “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.”(Romans 3:28)
"the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith."Galatians 3:24)

Paul is speaking of “works of the Law of Moses” and these are no longer in effect.

Acts 13:39 “and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.”

This has nothing to do with the “good works” which need to be done in cooperation with God’s grace in our souls in order for us to inherit eternal life.

Dead faith (faith without good works) will not save us.

James 2:14-24 “What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 **Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. **
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

Blessings,
SHW

 

[PEPCIS]

"SHW:

Please show me ONE verse in the Bible which states that “there is absolutely NOTHING that you, or anyone, can do to contribute to their own salvation.” I can’t find it or anything similar.

PEPCIS:

Sure. It’s in John 1:12-13
“All those who received Jesus, it was given to them the power to become the sons of God, yes, all those that believe on his name. And these which were born again were not born because of any relation to someone by blood, nor because their body was stronger than any other man, nor because they were any smarter than someone else. It was simply because of God’s power alone.”

John 1:12-13

“But as many as received Him, to them He gave** the right to become children (sons)** of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

I believe John specifically said that they had the right to BECOME the children/sons of God.

There are several versions which render the Greek word as “right”. However, it doesn’t matter if it is “right,” “power,” or “privilege.” It all ends up the same in the end - your salvation.

In any case, you’re making a mountain out of a mole-hill with this one. You asked me what verse tells us that there is nothing that a man can do to earn his salvation, and I gave it to you.

SHW:

This Scripture verse does not tell you how to receive Him or remain sons of God.

You didn’t ask for a Scripture verse which told you how to receive Jesus as Savior. You asked for a verse which specifically stated that you could do NOTHING to earn your salvation. That’s what this verse does. I’d call that the end of the subject.

 

[PEPCIS]

Jeremiah is telling them to change their ways and to do good instead

of evil. This a choice of our own free wills.
[/quote]

That’s why they never listened to him…

 

[SHW]

by Pepcis: “It is a “free will action” but only in the context in which he is “free.” It’s like saying that a man with no arms and legs can save himself from drowning when thrown into the sea. He has free will to NOT drown, but he does not have the means by which to effect his own salvation. Therefore, he is not TRULY free.

Continuing on in this analogy, if God were to save a sinner, it would be like God giving the man legs and arms, so that the man can now freely choose to live.

If I can’t effect my own salvation, then I certainly could NEVER effect any one elses. However, God commands us to preach His Word, and so we must. We can’t pull them from the fire, only God can do that.”

We are all responsible for choosing good instead of evil. Jude also states that we, you and me, are to pull sinners out of the fire. We do this by admonishing them, praying for them, shunning them, etc.

Jude 1:20-23 “But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23** but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire**, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.” (cf. 2 Thessalonians 3:6, 1 Timothy 2:1-3, Deuteronomy 30:18-20, Joshua 24:15)

God gives every person free will choice to either obey Him or to not obey Him. These free will choices to do either good works or evil works (or no works) determine whether we are saved or not on Judgment Day.

Acts 10:34-35 “Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him (obeys Him) and works righteousness (good works) is accepted by Him.”

Romans 11:22

“Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

by Pepcis: This verse was written to the Jews, not to Christians. Paul was just showing them how the prophecies of the OT which spoke of cutting off the people of Israel in favor of the Gentiles was being performed before their very eyes. The message was intended to get them to understand their place in God’s salvation plan.

Paul was telling them that Jesus taught that He is the Vine (the way to salvation) and we are the branches and that if we do not produce good fruit after we are joined to the vine (are saved), then we will be cut off the vine (be damned).

John 15:1-10 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.”

1. When we are joined to the Vine, we are saved.
2. Once joined to the Vine, we must produce good fruit in order to be His disciples.
3. God helps us to produce good fruit if we choose to cooperate (free will) with His grace.
4. If we do not produce good fruit, then we are cut off the Vine and cast into hell.
5. Not only are their works burned, but these persons also are burned (cast into hell).

Originally Posted by SHW
Romans 5:8 “8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

by Pepcis: This is one of my favorite verses, except that I prefer the King James word “commended” over the “demonstrated” in this version. That’s because Commendations are given to those who deserve it. Yet this verse clearly states that sinners who were UNDESERVING of salvation were given the commendation of salvation - the free gift of God, without doing a dang thing to earn it!!!

Yes, we are undeserving of salvation because before we are baptized, we are enemies of God because of Adam’s sin. (cf. Romans 5:8-21) A new born baby has no personal sin of his own. He only has the stain of Adam’s sin on his soul. No person can earn justification for Adam’s sin. Only Jesus could atone for Adam’s sin because only Jesus is both God and Man. No “works of the Law of Moses” of the Old Covenant could atone for Adam’s sin and also no “works of righteousness” could atone for Adam’s sin. Only Jesus could atone and did atone for Adam’s sin.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

If you are baptized after you reach the age of reason (about the age of seven), and if you have committed personal sins, then Baptism remits both Original Sin and also all of your personal sins. You now have a clean slate and are reconciled with God and you have sanctifying grace within your soul.

However, if you sin after baptism, then you have to atone for your own personal sins. If you sin sins that lead to death (damnation) then you must be sorry for your sin, repent, confess, make restitution if possible, and do works worthy of repentance in order to be saved again (be in God’s grace again). (cf. 1 John 5:16, Matthew 3:7-8, 1 John 1:9, Ezekiel 33:12-20)

If you sin venial sins, (sins which do not cause the death of your soul) then you must still make restitution for them either on earth or in purgatory.

1 Corinthians 3:9-18 “For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (This is purgatory.)
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.”

If you sin grievously after the Holy Spirit comes to live in your soul (at your justification/baptism) then you defile your temple and the Holy Spirit leaves your soul. You are no longer saved. You were once saved, but are saved no more.

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[SHW]

Sure. It’s in John 1:12-13
“All those who received Jesus, it was given to them the power to become the sons of God, yes, all those that believe on his name. And these which were born again were not born because of any relation to someone by blood, nor because their body was stronger than any other man, nor because they were any smarter than someone else. It was simply because of God’s power alone.”

There are several versions which render the Greek word as “right”. However, it doesn’t matter if it is “right,” “power,” or “privilege.” It all ends up the same in the end - your salvation.

In any case, you’re making a mountain out of a mole-hill with this one. You asked me what verse tells us that there is nothing that a man can do to earn his salvation, and I gave it to you.

You didn’t ask for a Scripture verse which told you how to receive Jesus as Savior. You asked for a verse which specifically stated that you could do NOTHING to earn your salvation. That’s what this verse does. I’d call that the end of the subject.

John 1:12-13 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

It looks like you have added a bit to this passage. It does not state: " It was simply because of God’s power alone."

God decided to redeem us. We had nothing to do with His decision to send Jesus to die for us in order to atone for Adam’s sin. It was because of God’s mercy and love for us that He sent Jesus to redeem us while we were still His enemies because of Adam’s sin.

We do have the free will choice to either receive Him or not receive Him, however. This free will choice determines whether we are actually saved or not. God does not prevent us from being saved and God does not force us to be saved. IF we decide to receive Jesus in Baptism, then we are saved. I’d call this a “big something” that we must do in order to be saved.

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[SHW]

That’s why they never listened to him…

Free will choice.

2 Chronicles 7:14 “if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and** turn from their wicked ways**, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.”

Salvation is conditional on our own free will choices after we are initially justified by Christ’s sacrifice.

1 Corinthians 6:8-10 “No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[Ben_Masada]

Why is predestination wrong?

---

Predestination is wrong because it interferes with freewill. Besides, predestination or fate is a thing of the Greeks. In fact, more powerful than their gods. Even Zeus himself. According to the Scriptures, we have been granted freewill. Otherwise, we could not be responsible for our own actions.

Ben:

 

[MGLechner]

Why is predestination wrong?

It’s not! It’s taught in the Bible. St. Augustine wrote about predestination…also known as Divine Election. You cannot be a true Christian (be ye, Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Reformed or Evangelical) if you do not believe in predestination! Anyone who tells you otherwise, is leading you astray.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

It is a “free will action” but only in the context in which he is “free.” It’s like saying that a man with no arms and legs can save himself from drowning when thrown into the sea. He has free will to NOT drown, but he does not have the means by which to effect his own salvation. Therefore, he is not TRULY free.

Continuing on in this analogy, if God were to save a sinner, it would be like God giving the man legs and arms, so that the man can now freely choose to live.

If I can’t effect my own salvation, then I certainly could NEVER effect any one elses. However, God commands us to preach His Word, and so we must. We can’t pull them from the fire, only God can do that.

We are all responsible for choosing good instead of evil.

Very true. God holds each man responsible for their actions.

SHW:

Jude also states that we, you and me, are to pull sinners out of the fire. We do this by admonishing them, praying for them, shunning them, etc.

True, but this is in the context of believers, not non-believers. As you read this, you see that Jude is talking about how false teachers come in and try to ravage God’s people. We are supposed to pull them out of the fire. A similar (but secular) expression is “pulling the fat from the fire.” It’s a dangerous procedure, but it is required to prevent the fire from becoming worse.

SHW:

God gives every person free will choice to either obey Him or to not obey Him.

This is only possible for the believer, not the non-believer.

SHW:

1. When we are joined to the Vine, we are saved.

Not true. Wolves are constantly in our midst, attaching themselves to the vine. It is to them that this admonition is directed. Believers, by their new nature, will produce good fruit, some ten-fold, some a hundred-fold.

SHW:

1. Once joined to the Vine, we must produce good fruit in order to be His disciples.

We WILL produce good fruit. That is the Holy Spirit’s work within us. Would you say that the Holy Spirit does not produce any fruit?

SHW:

1. God helps us to produce good fruit if we choose to cooperate (free will) with His grace.

I can do nothing of myself. Paul said it best in Philippians 2:13
[SIGN]“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”[/SIGN] Any good work which proceeds from me is the result of God’s Spirit alive in me.

 

[PEPCIS]

If you are baptized after you reach the age of reason (about the age of seven), and if you have committed personal sins, then Baptism remits both Original Sin and also all of your personal sins. You now have a clean slate and are reconciled with God and you have sanctifying grace within your soul.

That’s an interesting doctrine, but one that I do not personally adhere to. I don’t see that the Bible supports that.

SHW:

However, if you sin after baptism, then you have to atone for your own personal sins. If you sin sins that lead to death (damnation) then you must be sorry for your sin, repent, confess, make restitution if possible, and do works worthy of repentance in order to be saved again (be in God’s grace again). (cf. 1 John 5:16, Matthew 3:7-8, 1 John 1:9, Ezekiel 33:12-20)

That’s a complete WORKS-BASED system of salvation. Christ died for nothing, in this system.

 

[PEPCIS]

John 1:12-13 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

It looks like you have added a bit to this passage. It does not state: “It was simply because of God’s power alone.”

That, obviously, was a paraphrase, not something “added.” The CEV translates it this way:

[SIGN]“They were not God’s children by nature or because of any human desires. *God himself *was the one who made them his children.”[/SIGN]
So, it was indeed God’s power alone. It had NOTHING to do with my will, my relationship to my Catholic mother, or my Baptist father, or because I belonged to this church or to that one. It was not because I was stronger, smarter, faster, or “cooler” than anyone else, because God is not a respecter of persons.

It is God’s power alone that saves, and there is absolutely NOTHING that you or I can/could do to earn our salvation.

[SIGN]“For by grace are you saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)[/SIGN]

 

[igystrvigy]

Paul is speaking of Jesus’ death to atone for Original Sin (Adam’s sin). Only Jesus could atone for Original Sin. No works of man could atone for Original Sin.

No works of man can atone for sin PERIOD. To make some distinction between original sin and ‘other’ is unnecessary. Sin is sin. We are born into it and start doing it from very young. Yes, I believe the Bible teaches that prior to Christ’s sacrifice on the cross the righteous dead did not enter Heaven, but Paradise (one half of Sheol, the other of which is Hades). When Christ died he preached his Gospel to these believers and ushered them into Heaven. Likewise, the unbelieving dead are not yet in Hell, but Hades. At the White Throne judgment they will be cast into Hell, “the Lake of Fire.”

And what scripture describes ‘foreknowledge’ leading to this reactionary type of salvation? That because God looked down the corridors of time and saw how we would act then he assigned us to salvation? This Arminian position does much to deny Almighty God’s sovereignty. “Foreknowledge” does not necessarily lead to your assertion. From our perspective in time all of God’s knowledge is foreknowledge! He is the first and the last and knows the beginning from the end.

Our free will does not determine our salvation. In our state of depravity, we cannot freely choose God’s righteousness. We can choose our own form of righteousness, but Isaiah lets us know that those are all filthy rags to God. Only God can give us the faith which leads to salvation. It is a GIFT—every facet of it!

 

[SHW]

It’s not! It’s taught in the Bible. St. Augustine wrote about predestination…also known as Divine Election. You cannot be a true Christian (be ye, Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Reformed or Evangelical) if you do not believe in predestination! Anyone who tells you otherwise, is leading you astray.

Please show the “exact” quote from Augustine’s writing on “Divine Election.”

Thank you.

 

[SHW]

by SHW
Jude also states that we, you and me, are to pull sinners out of the fire. We do this by admonishing them, praying for them, shunning them, etc.

by Pepcis “True, but this is in the context of believers, not non-believers. As you read this, you see that Jude is talking about how false teachers come in and try to ravage God’s people. We are supposed to pull them out of the fire. A similar (but secular) expression is “pulling the fat from the fire.” It’s a dangerous procedure, but it is required to prevent the fire from becoming worse.”

These are believers who are about to become “unbelievers” because of false teachers’ influences and they will become “unbelievers” unless we steadfast believers pull them out of the fire (damnation).

by SHW
God gives every person free will choice to either obey Him or to not obey Him.

by Pepcis. This is only possible for the believer, not the non-believer.

1. God is Love.
2. God desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth. Jesus died as a ransom for ALL men.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time,”

Since Jesus died for ALL men and God desires ALL men to be SAVED, then why are not ALL men saved?

The answer is this: Free will choice by each individual person. They either choose to obey God or to not obey God. God forces no one to be saved and He forces no one to be lost. If He forces someone to be damned by His own sovereign will instead of Man’s free will choices, then He is not Love and He is not Just. Since He is Love and He is Just, then our own actions condemn us or save us depending on whether we obey the Gospel of Jesus.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,”

by SHW

1. When we are joined to the Vine, we are saved.

by Pepcis “Not true. Wolves are constantly in our midst, attaching themselves to the vine. It is to them that this admonition is directed. Believers, by their new nature, will produce good fruit, some ten-fold, some a hundred-fold.”

Only those who are saved (at any given moment) are attached to the Vine, Jesus. Jesus does not let wolves attach to Himself. We may be fooled by wolves in sheep’s clothing, but Jesus is not. When we are “in Christ” we are attached to the Vine. How are we “IN Christ?”

We are “in Christ” only if/when we are obeying God’s commandments.

John 15:10 “**If **you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.”

Matthew 19:17 “So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Our salvation or lack of salvation depends on our own free will choices. They either save us or condemn us on Judgment Day. (Matthew 25:32-46)

by SHW
2. Once joined to the Vine, we must produce good fruit in order to be His disciples.

1. God helps us to produce good fruit if we choose to cooperate (free will) with His grace.

by Pepcis “”I can do nothing of myself. Paul said it best in Philippians 2:13”
Any good work which proceeds from me is the result of God’s Spirit alive in me.

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

True. We cooperate with the Holy Spirit’s grace in order to produce good fruit. He does not produce good fruit without our cooperation.

Matthew 3:8 “Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,”

Jesus is not telling the Holy Spirit to do this by Himself. Jesus is telling us to bear fruits worthy of repentance. But we cannot do anything good without God’s grace at work within us.

God wills that we do good works but we must cooperate with His grace in order to actually do them. He does not force us to do good works and He does not prevent us from doing good works. He does help us to do them if we choose to do them.

1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

Acts 22:16 “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

We choose whether to be baptized or not to be baptized unless our parents chose for us when we were under the age of reason. (The Holy Spirit enters our souls (temples) at Baptism [we are sanctified/made holy by Baptism] and He resides there unless we commit grievous sins/defile our temples.)

What happens if we defile our temples with sin?

1 Corinthians 3:16-18 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself.”

 

[SHW]

Originally Posted by SHW
If you are baptized after you reach the age of reason (about the age of seven), and if you have committed personal sins, then Baptism remits both Original Sin and also all of your personal sins. You now have a clean slate and are reconciled with God and you have sanctifying grace within your soul.

by Pepcis “That’s an interesting doctrine, but one that I do not personally adhere to. I don’t see that the Bible supports that.”

I answered this in the previous post.

by SHW
John 1:12-13 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

It looks like you have added a bit to this passage. It does not state: “It was simply because of God’s power alone.”

by Pepcis "That, obviously, was a paraphrase, not something “added.” The CEV translates it this way:
“They were not God’s children by nature or because of any human desires. God himself was the one who made them his children.”

You added “it was simply by God’s power ALONE.” God gave us the RIGHT to become His children by Jesus’ Sacrifice on the Cross. God willed that His Son reconcile us to Himself (Jesus died as a ransom for ALL). It was not because of anything that we did that He decided to redeem us from Adam’s sin which made us His enemies. (Romans 5) It was because of His love for His creation that He took pity upon us and made it possible for us to reconcile with Him by His Son’s Sacrifice. He does not force us to become His children, however. We have free will choice whether we take advantage of His free gift. It was not “simply by God’s power ALONE” that we became His children. We had to CHOOSE to become His children (have faith) and to be baptized in order to actually become His children.

by SHW
However, if you sin after baptism, then you have to atone for your own personal sins. If you sin sins that lead to death (damnation) then you must be sorry for your sin, repent, confess, make restitution if possible, and do works worthy of repentance in order to be saved again (be in God’s grace again). (cf. 1 John 5:16, Matthew 3:7-8, 1 John 1:9, Ezekiel 33:12-20)

by Pepcis “That’s a complete WORKS-BASED system of salvation. Christ died for nothing, in this system.”

No, it is not. FIRST Jesus reconciles us to God by His Holy Sacrifice on the Cross. We could do no works of our own to attain this reconciliation. No works of the Law of Moses or righteous works could reconcile us to God to atone for Adam’s sin.

However, after Jesus reconciles us to God, then we are personally responsible to remain attached to the Vine, Jesus.

by Pepcis “So, it was indeed God’s power alone. It had NOTHING to do with my will, my relationship to my Catholic mother, or my Baptist father, or because I belonged to this church or to that one. It was not because I was stronger, smarter, faster, or “cooler” than anyone else, because God is not a respecter of persons.”

“It is God’s power alone that saves, and there is absolutely NOTHING that you or I can/could do to earn our salvation.
“For by grace are you saved through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; it is the GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)”

Paul is speaking of our INITIAL salvation only in Ephesians 2:8-9. He is not guaranteeing our CONTINUAL salvation or our FINAL salvation.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued…

1 Peter 1:16-19 “because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” 17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.”

Philippians 2:12 “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;”

1 Corinthians 9:27 “But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.”

Our continued and final salvation/justification depends on whether we obey God’s commandments or not until death. Our salvation depends on whether we are truly “in Christ” or not at our deaths. If we obey God’s commandments until we die, then we are “in Christ” and we will then enter eternal life.

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

Our initial justification/salvation depends on our free will choice to have faith in Jesus and be baptized/sanctified. (1 Corinthians 6:11, Acts 22:16, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy 1:8-10)

After we are justified/saved, then it is up to us to remain/continue in that state of grace (in Christ).

Acts 13:43 “Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.”

Acts 14:22 “strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

Romans 11:22 “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

Romans 11:23 “And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”

**
Salvation is a life-long process, not a one-time event.**

 

[SHW]

Originally posted by Pepcis "It is a “free will action” but only in the context in which he is “free.” It’s like saying that a man with no arms and legs can save himself from drowning when thrown into the sea. He has free will to NOT drown, but he does not have the means by which to effect his own salvation. Therefore, he is not TRULY free.

This man is still able to call for help. He can choose to call for help and someone will then help him. He chooses (uses his free will) to call for help.

Originally posted by Pepcis "Continuing on in this analogy, if God were to save a sinner, it would be like God giving the man legs and arms, so that the man can now freely choose to live.

God gives us free will to choose to do good or evil and we will be judged on Judgment Day according to our choices. We can use our “arms and legs” and minds, etc. to either do good or evil works. Our free will choice.

2 Corinthians 5:9-11 “Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.”

We use our free wills to do either evil or good and we are judged for hell or heaven depending on these choices. We can gain and lose salvation many times up to the time of our death. If I am in the state of sanctifying grace when I die, then I will not be damned. If I am not in the state of sanctifying grace when I die, then I will be damned.

Ezekiel 33:8-20

 

[SHW]

No works of man can atone for sin PERIOD. To make some distinction between original sin and ‘other’ is unnecessary. Sin is sin. We are born into it and start doing it from very young… Likewise, the unbelieving dead are not yet in Hell, but Hades. At the White Throne judgment they will be cast into Hell, “the Lake of Fire.”

You are mistaken. Original Sin and personal sins are two different types of sin.

Romans 5:14 “Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.”

Original Sin can only be atoned for by Jesus.

Romans 5:18 “Therefore, as through one man’s (Adam’s) offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.”

We can atone for our personal sins.

James 5:19-20 “Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death (damnation) and cover (atone for) a multitude of sins.”

1 Peter 4:8 “And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover (atone for) a multitude of sins.”

Leviticus 4:35 “He shall remove all its fat, as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offering. Then the priest shall burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire to the LORD. So the priest shall make atonement for his sin that he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him.”

God sent His Son to atone for Adam’s sin which had made us all enemies of Him. (Romans 5) Jesus’ Sacrifice also remits all of our previous sins at the time of our Baptisms because we are sanctified by Baptism (God applies the merits of Jesus’ Sacrifice to our souls through Baptism and we are sanctified.) Jesus’ Sacrifice was a perfect Sacrifice so It remits all sins at Baptism. However, after our sanctification, we are responsible for our personal sins. God forgives our personal sins when we repent but we must atone for them by doing works “worthy of repentance.”(Acts 22:16, 1 Corinthians 6:11, Matthew 3:8) These works which are worthy of repentance atone for our personal sins.

We will have to agree to disagree about the present abode of the unrighteous dead. I believe that those who are condemned to hell go there immediately after their deaths and you do not.
igystrvigy;:

And what scripture describes ‘foreknowledge’ leading to this reactionary type of salvation? That because God looked down the corridors of time and saw how we would act then he assigned us to salvation? This Arminian position does much to deny Almighty God’s sovereignty. “Foreknowledge” does not necessarily lead to your assertion. From our perspective in time all of God’s knowledge is foreknowledge! He is the first and the last and knows the beginning from the end.

1 Peter 1:1-2 “To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:”

God saw all of our deeds before we were created. Those who would remain in Christ until their deaths, He predestined for eternal life.

Romans 8:29 “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

He saw our deeds first in His foreknowledge. These whom He foreknew who would do good works instead of evil works are the ones He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (to be “in Christ”) and who would enter eternal life.

Being predestined depended on their own free will choices. God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth and Jesus died as a ransom for all men.” Yet not all men are saved. God forces no one to be saved. God prevents no one from being saved because He desires all men to be saved. So it is our own free will choices which determine whether we are saved or not. Our works “done in the body” save us or condemn us on Judgment Day.

igystrvigy:

Our free will does not determine our salvation. In our state of depravity, we cannot freely choose God’s righteousness. We can choose our own form of righteousness, but Isaiah lets us know that those are all filthy rags to God. Only God can give us the faith which leads to salvation. It is a GIFT—every facet of it!

God gives us the grace to choose Him if we so desire to choose Him. Once we are reconciled to God by Baptism, we are no longer depraved. We are sanctified (made Holy). It is up to us to continue in this holiness until we die.

IF we sin willfully after we come to the knowledge of the Truth (justification) then we lose our salvation.

Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”