- Status
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PEPCIS
Guest
"SHW:
SHW:
It is impossible for believers to “become unbelievers.” Jesus said, contrary to your assertion, that
[SIGN]“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.” (John 10:28)[/SIGN]
This verse clearly implies that there are many that would try to pluck them from Jesus’ hand - like sin, or the world, or Satan, or evil wolves in sheep’s clothing - but none will be able to do so.
Implicit in this verse is the knowledge that Jesus is God, and therefore is Omnipotent - who could ever snatch them from His hand? The very thought is ridiculous.
Another verse which supports this very notion is Philipians 1:6:
[SIGN]“Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.”[/SIGN]
It isn’t “He will perform it until you fall away”, but “He WILL perform it completely until Jesus returns.”
And again:
[SIGN]“Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” (2 Tim.2:18)[/SIGN]
There are many tares that remain among the wheat, and even though we struggle determining which is the tare and which is the wheat, it matters not, because “The Lord knoweth them that are His.” Praise the God of my salvation, Jesus Christ.
It’s always important to point out where two can agree. This is true, that those spoken of by Jude are believers.Jude also states that we, you and me, are to pull sinners out of the fire. We do this by admonishing them, praying for them, shunning them, etc.
PEPCIS:
It is also very important to point out wherever a Christian is sharing something that is not true, or not supported by the Bible.
It is impossible for believers to “become unbelievers.” Jesus said, contrary to your assertion, that
[SIGN]“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.” (John 10:28)[/SIGN]
This verse clearly implies that there are many that would try to pluck them from Jesus’ hand - like sin, or the world, or Satan, or evil wolves in sheep’s clothing - but none will be able to do so.
Implicit in this verse is the knowledge that Jesus is God, and therefore is Omnipotent - who could ever snatch them from His hand? The very thought is ridiculous.
Another verse which supports this very notion is Philipians 1:6:
[SIGN]“Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.”[/SIGN]
It isn’t “He will perform it until you fall away”, but “He WILL perform it completely until Jesus returns.”
And again:
[SIGN]“Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” (2 Tim.2:18)[/SIGN]
There are many tares that remain among the wheat, and even though we struggle determining which is the tare and which is the wheat, it matters not, because “The Lord knoweth them that are His.” Praise the God of my salvation, Jesus Christ.
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PEPCIS
Guest
SHW said:PEPCIS:
SHW:
Yes, again we disagree. But, inherent in that agreement is also a disagreement, because you deliberately emphasize love, and belittle God’s Judgment and Justice.
Wrong. Jesus died as a propitiation for our sins. If this verse is really talking about the whole world, then we are talking “universalism”, which is un-Biblical. Therefore, there MUST be an interpretation which considers other verses, such as this one where Jesus prayed to His father:
[SIGN]"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.” (John 17:1-2)[/SIGN]
Clearly, Jesus recognized that God had not given Him the WHOLE WORLD, but only the elect out of the world. If God wanted all men saved, He would do it. God’s will cannot be thwarted.
There are basically three views that we can adopt:
*]God sent Jesus to redeem everybody (this is universalism which means that everybody will be saved). This view is obviously un-Biblical.
*]God sent Jesus to redeem everyone who would believe (have faith) and take advantage of Christ’s work. This is the view of Arminians who believe that Christ’s death was potential atonement, not actual atonement.
*]God sent Jesus to redeem only the elect (the chosen church – Unconditional Election). This is the reformed view whereby we believe that Christ’s death was an actual atonement.
The first is obviously out, because we already know that God has reserved Hell for Satan and his demons, and there will be plenty of men who will reside there due to their own rejection of Christ and their terrible sins.
The second view was deemed a heresy by the church in the 5th century. Pelagianism, unfortunately, has since been adopted by the majority within the Catholic Church since that time.
Finally, we have the third view, which is the view that the Bible presents. Christ came to save HIS people, not the whole world.
SHW:
Which is why there is no such thing as free will.
SHW:
Too bad your view is not Biblical. The Bible is crystal clear - God has already damned EVERYONE to hell, but out of those He has reserved His elect. Read John 3:18.
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PEPCIS
Guest
[SIGN]“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)[/SIGN]
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PEPCIS
Guest
"SHW:
Verse 13 states three things that are in opposition to one other thing. The three things are all man-generated, and they are opposed to the power and will of God. It reads:
"These were born
[Count to ten…]John 1:12-13 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
PEPCIS:
Verse 13 states three things that are in opposition to one other thing. The three things are all man-generated, and they are opposed to the power and will of God. It reads:
"These were born
- not of blood
- nor of the will of the flesh
- nor of the will of man
- but of God."
- Not according to any lineage or blood line
- Not according to any work that man can accomplish
- Not because of anything that man could ever desire
You’d like to add your works to it, but it doesn’t happen that way. If you are trusting in your own good works, I would urge you to transfer your trust to Christ alone.
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PEPCIS
Guest
However, if you sin after baptism, then you have to atone for your own personal sins. If you sin sins that lead to death (damnation) then you must be sorry for your sin, repent, confess, make restitution if possible, and do works worthy of repentance in order to be saved again (be in God’s grace again). (cf. 1 John 5:16, Matthew 3:7-8, 1 John 1:9, Ezekiel 33:12-20)
PEPCIS:
SHW:
Jesus reconciles us to God by His Holy Sacrifice on the Cross. We could do no works of our own to attain this reconciliation. No works of the Law of Moses or righteous works could reconcile us to God to atone for Adam’s sin.
Now you’re changing what you said. You first said that we have to atone for our own sins, and if we don’t, then we will not be saved. Now you’re trying to say that we can’t do any “works of our own to attain this reconciliation.”
In your scenario, it is possible for us to lose our salvation, and then to come to Christ again, and again, and again, and again, and again…
According to you, we become saved by Christ’s work on the cross, then we can lose our salvation. Then we must be reconciled once more. After that, we can lose our salvation again. After that, we can reconcile ourselves to Christ again.
Works-based system of righteousness.
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Pete_Holter
Guest
I just want to clarify for everyone that the Catholic Church does not teach that we can add to Christ’s sacrifice. We cannot and do not add to Christ’s sacrifice.
By the mercies of God, we draw from it. I don’t think SHW meant to say what was actually said in the quote above, but I thought it was worth clarifying.
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Pete_Holter
Guest
His choice of us is “according to the riches of His grace,” “according to His purpose,” and “not because of works but because of Him Who calls.” (Eph 1:7, 1:9, Rom 9:11). “So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy” (Rom 9:16). “For it is God Who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure” (Phil 2:13). “You have indeed done for us all our works” (Isaiah 26:12). “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me” (Gal 2:20). “I toil, struggling with all His energy that He powerfully works within me” (Col 1:29). “Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own Master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.” “He must increase, but I must decrease …] that God may be all in all” (John 3:30; 1 Cor 15:28). “‘My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness.’ Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong” (2 Cor 12:8-10). Yes, our confidence is in Him and we “put no confidence in the flesh” (Phil 3:3). Apart from Christ, we can do nothing! (cf. John 15:5). “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all” (John 6:63). “What do you have that you did not receive?” (1 Cor 4:7), “All this is from God,” for “every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights” (2 Cor. 5:18; James 1:17). “But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me” (1 Cor 15:10), etc.
Our God is powerful!!! This is a salvation to be excited about! This is sovereign and amazing grace!!! It is pure grace!
“After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself” (CCC 2011).
“If only we encase ourselves in the armor of salvation against such a conflict, once we begin to refrain from sinning, we shall little by little blunt the edge of the enemy’s attack and sap his strength; until at length we shall wing our flight to that place of repose, where triumph and boundless joy will be ours. The credit of the victory is to be ascribed solely to the grace of God, which within us gives light to the mind and strength to the will, when we rise superior to so many hindrances and contests. It is the grace of God, We say! For as He created us, so is He able, through the treasures of His wisdom and power, to set aflame and fill our hearts wholly with His love” (Pope Pius XI, Ad Salutem Humani).
“Forasmuch as he is also able to reject [the prevenient grace of God], yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: “Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you,” we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer, “Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted,” we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God” (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification, Ch 5).
“We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God’s judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God’s grace. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say:
“When Catholics say that persons ‘cooperate’ in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God’s justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities” (Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification).
Our God is powerful!!! This is a salvation to be excited about! This is sovereign and amazing grace!!! It is pure grace!
“After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself” (CCC 2011).
“If only we encase ourselves in the armor of salvation against such a conflict, once we begin to refrain from sinning, we shall little by little blunt the edge of the enemy’s attack and sap his strength; until at length we shall wing our flight to that place of repose, where triumph and boundless joy will be ours. The credit of the victory is to be ascribed solely to the grace of God, which within us gives light to the mind and strength to the will, when we rise superior to so many hindrances and contests. It is the grace of God, We say! For as He created us, so is He able, through the treasures of His wisdom and power, to set aflame and fill our hearts wholly with His love” (Pope Pius XI, Ad Salutem Humani).
“Forasmuch as he is also able to reject [the prevenient grace of God], yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: “Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you,” we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer, “Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted,” we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God” (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification, Ch 5).
“We confess together that all persons depend completely on the saving grace of God for their salvation. The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God’s judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God’s grace. Because Catholics and Lutherans confess this together, it is true to say:
“When Catholics say that persons ‘cooperate’ in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God’s justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities” (Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification).
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Pete_Holter
Guest
These quotes from St. Augustine address a variety of questions raised in this thread…
“Those, then, are elected, as has often been said, who are called according to the purpose, who also are predestinated and foreknown. If any one of these perishes, God is mistaken; but none of them perishes, because God is not mistaken. If any one of these perish, God is overcome by human sin; but none of them perishes, because God is overcome by nothing” (St. Augustine, Rebuke and Grace).
“When, therefore, God’s children say of those who had not perseverance, ‘They went out from us, but they were not of us,’ and add, ‘Because if they had been of us, they would assuredly have continued with us,’ what else do they say than that they were not children, even when they were in the profession and name of children? Not because they simulated righteousness, but because they did not continue in it. For he does not say, ‘For if they had been of us, they would assuredly have maintained a real and not a feigned righteousness with us;’ but he says, ‘If they had been of us, they would assuredly have continued with us.’ Beyond a doubt, he wished them to continue in goodness. Therefore they were in goodness” (St. Augustine, Rebuke and Grace).
“For who of the multitude of believers can presume, so long as he is living in this mortal state, that he is in the number of the predestinated? Because it is necessary that in this condition that should be kept hidden… on account of the usefulness of this secrecy, it must be believed that some of the children of perdition, who have not received the gift of perseverance to the end, begin to live in the faith which worketh by love, and live for some time faithfully and righteously, and afterwards fall away, and are not taken away from this life before this happens to them. If this had happened to none of these, men would have that very wholesome fear, by which the sin of presumption is kept down, only so long as until they should attain to the grace of Christ by which to live piously, and afterwards would for time to come be secure that they would never fall away from Him. And such presumption in this condition of trials is not fitting, where there is so great weakness, that security may engender pride” (St. Augustine, Rebuke and Grace).
“It is not, then, to be doubted that men’s wills cannot, so as to prevent His doing what he wills, withstand the will of God, ‘who hath done all things whatsoever He pleased in heaven and in earth,’ and who also ‘has done those things that are to come;’ since He does even concerning the wills themselves of men what He will, when He will” (St. Augustine, Rebuke and Grace).
“God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, predestinating us to the adoption of children, not because we were going to be of ourselves holy and immaculate, but He chose and predestinated us that we might be so. Moreover, He did this according to the good pleasure of His will, so that nobody might glory concerning his own will, but about God’s will towards himself. He did this according to the riches of His grace, according to His good-will, which He purposed in His beloved Son; in whom we have obtained a share, being predestinated according to the purpose, not ours, but His, who works all things to such an extent as that He works in us to will also. Moreover, He works according to the counsel of His will, that we may be to the praise of His glory. Philippians 2:13 For this reason it is that we cry that no one should glory in man, and, thus, not in himself; but whoever glories let him glory in the Lord, that he may be for the praise of His glory” (St. Augustine, The Predestination of the Saints).
“And yet this doctrine must not be preached to congregations in such a way as to seem to an unskilled multitude, or a people of slower understanding, to be in some measure confuted by that very preaching of it. Just as even the foreknowledge of God, which certainly men cannot deny, seems to be refuted if it be said to them, ‘Whether you run or sleep, you shall be that which He who cannot be deceived has foreknown you to be.’ And it is the part of a deceitful or an unskilled physician so to compound even a useful medicament, that it either does no good or does harm. But it must be said, ‘So run that you may lay hold; and thus by your very running you may know yourselves to be foreknown as those who should run lawfully:’ and in whatever other manner the foreknowledge of God may be so preached, that the slothfulness of man may be repulsed” (St. Augustine, The Gift of Perseverance).
“Those, then, are elected, as has often been said, who are called according to the purpose, who also are predestinated and foreknown. If any one of these perishes, God is mistaken; but none of them perishes, because God is not mistaken. If any one of these perish, God is overcome by human sin; but none of them perishes, because God is overcome by nothing” (St. Augustine, Rebuke and Grace).
“When, therefore, God’s children say of those who had not perseverance, ‘They went out from us, but they were not of us,’ and add, ‘Because if they had been of us, they would assuredly have continued with us,’ what else do they say than that they were not children, even when they were in the profession and name of children? Not because they simulated righteousness, but because they did not continue in it. For he does not say, ‘For if they had been of us, they would assuredly have maintained a real and not a feigned righteousness with us;’ but he says, ‘If they had been of us, they would assuredly have continued with us.’ Beyond a doubt, he wished them to continue in goodness. Therefore they were in goodness” (St. Augustine, Rebuke and Grace).
“For who of the multitude of believers can presume, so long as he is living in this mortal state, that he is in the number of the predestinated? Because it is necessary that in this condition that should be kept hidden… on account of the usefulness of this secrecy, it must be believed that some of the children of perdition, who have not received the gift of perseverance to the end, begin to live in the faith which worketh by love, and live for some time faithfully and righteously, and afterwards fall away, and are not taken away from this life before this happens to them. If this had happened to none of these, men would have that very wholesome fear, by which the sin of presumption is kept down, only so long as until they should attain to the grace of Christ by which to live piously, and afterwards would for time to come be secure that they would never fall away from Him. And such presumption in this condition of trials is not fitting, where there is so great weakness, that security may engender pride” (St. Augustine, Rebuke and Grace).
“It is not, then, to be doubted that men’s wills cannot, so as to prevent His doing what he wills, withstand the will of God, ‘who hath done all things whatsoever He pleased in heaven and in earth,’ and who also ‘has done those things that are to come;’ since He does even concerning the wills themselves of men what He will, when He will” (St. Augustine, Rebuke and Grace).
“God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, predestinating us to the adoption of children, not because we were going to be of ourselves holy and immaculate, but He chose and predestinated us that we might be so. Moreover, He did this according to the good pleasure of His will, so that nobody might glory concerning his own will, but about God’s will towards himself. He did this according to the riches of His grace, according to His good-will, which He purposed in His beloved Son; in whom we have obtained a share, being predestinated according to the purpose, not ours, but His, who works all things to such an extent as that He works in us to will also. Moreover, He works according to the counsel of His will, that we may be to the praise of His glory. Philippians 2:13 For this reason it is that we cry that no one should glory in man, and, thus, not in himself; but whoever glories let him glory in the Lord, that he may be for the praise of His glory” (St. Augustine, The Predestination of the Saints).
“And yet this doctrine must not be preached to congregations in such a way as to seem to an unskilled multitude, or a people of slower understanding, to be in some measure confuted by that very preaching of it. Just as even the foreknowledge of God, which certainly men cannot deny, seems to be refuted if it be said to them, ‘Whether you run or sleep, you shall be that which He who cannot be deceived has foreknown you to be.’ And it is the part of a deceitful or an unskilled physician so to compound even a useful medicament, that it either does no good or does harm. But it must be said, ‘So run that you may lay hold; and thus by your very running you may know yourselves to be foreknown as those who should run lawfully:’ and in whatever other manner the foreknowledge of God may be so preached, that the slothfulness of man may be repulsed” (St. Augustine, The Gift of Perseverance).
N
NonCatholic
Guest
Romans 9:18-24 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And {He did so} to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 {even} us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
I do believe that there is a paradox concerning free-will by humans. Here is a simple word search for “unbelief”; it is rather interesting. searchgodsword.org/desk/?language=en&query=unbelief§ion=0&translation=nas&oq=ro%25209%3A23&new=1&sr=1&nb=ro&ng=9&ncc=9
God’s sovereign will in choosing whom He will save is definitely part of Scripture. It’s hard for a fallen finite mind to grasp.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Is it possible to resist God’s will?
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Not necessarily. Not all sin is mortal.
But when you say that they were “counting on purgatory” what exactly do you think they thought that purgatory would do for them?
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NonCatholic
Guest
Nope! If it were, we would. However, many people confuse the will of God with there own.
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Pete_Holter
Guest
Good evening NonCatholic!
I don’t know whether this has been pointed out for some of the posters here, but in the description of “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,” the verb, prepared is in the passive/middle voice in the Greek. Note also the fact that “beforehand” is missing from the description of the action predicated of these “vessels.” For the vessels of mercy, on the other hand, we have prepared in the active voice, and we have the added description that this preparation happened “beforehand.” Hence the Catholic understanding that the reprobate are not predestinated, to use Gottle of Geer’s words, “by a positive Divine decree,” while the elect undoubtedly are! The Catholic faith in perfect harmony with Sacred Scripture!
Glory to the King! What a Mighty, Mighty Savior You are!
G
guanophore
Guest
It is possible to resist God’s will Non. This is how God, in His sovereignty, predestined it to be.
People do, indeed, confuse the will of God with their own, all the time!
I have been waiting for you to answer this question for some time, because I would like to hear your take on this scripture:
Luke 7:28-30
" I tell you, among those born of women no one is greater than John; yet the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." 29(And all the people who heard this, including the tax collectors, acknowledged the justice of God, because they had been baptized with John’s baptism. 30 But by refusing to be baptized by him, the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves.)"
Now, if God calls all to be saved:
1 Tim 2:2-5
3 This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Then they refused the salvation to which they were called, and they rejected His purpose for themselves.
If, on the other hand, God destined them for perdition, they why is it said that they rejected His purpose, when they fulfilled it?
N
NonCatholic
Guest
First, He didn’t will for all to be saved; only the elect. If they were called unto salvation, then they would be saved, but the will was not salvation. “Many are called, but few are chosen” The calling is the hearing or knowledge of the truth.
As far as rejecting His purpose FOR THEMSELVES; this simply means they rejected His counsel. The word purpose in this context is different than the context of say Romans 8:28.
My other post, shown below, shows how God displays His will toward the saved and rejected. This is part of the reason it saddens me to see people get caught up in believing a religious affiliation will have any bearing on who God chose; it is the very same mistake the the Jews made in thinking just because they were Jews and others weren’t they were okay with God while others weren’t. It is spiritual pride and arrogance, which has damned many souls throughout the ages.
Romans 9:18-24 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And {He did so} to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 {even} us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
I do believe that there is a paradox concerning free-will by humans. Here is a simple word search for “unbelief”; it is rather interesting. searchgodsword.org/desk/?..=ro&ng=9&ncc=9 We chose not to believe; yet we believe because God purposed it so. The bottom line is that God is glorified in His saving grace and in His wrath.
God’s sovereign will in choosing whom He will save and whom He will not definitely part of Scripture. It’s hard for our fallen finite mind to wrap around.
G
guanophore
Guest
Do you think the Apostle misspoke?
1 Tim 2:2-5
3 This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
This doctrine of Limited Atonement constitutes for us a “different gospel”. this is the case because it does not reflect the Apostolic Teaching. The ancient Churches consider this to be a man made doctrine emanating from the Reformation.
Why bother to command and call everyone?
Acts 17:29-30
" While God has overlooked the times of human ignorance, now he commands all people everywhere to repent,"
Why does God waste His breath commanding things that He does not want?
Ok, then if God did not will for them to be saved, how is it that they rejected the purpose of God for themselves? Did they not, by failing to heed the call, do what He intended?
Luke 7:29-30
30 But by refusing to be baptized by him, the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves.)
Or, if this is not a reference to eternal life, then what purpose did they reject, and how did they do so?
Or do you think that Luke also misspoke himself?
I agree. Those who answer the call become the elect.
Well, help me out here. It seems to me that the context is salvation.
I am not sure why you think that Catholics believe that our religious affiliation has any bearing on who God chooses.
I think you have imagined this.
While I agree that spiritual pride and arrogance are indeed damning, Jesus only founded One Church, and only has One Body,.
Yes, but try to help me grasp it. I agree about the paradox, but I cannot reconcile these scriptures with the Calvanistic view that you are presenting.
N
NonCatholic
Guest
Listen, when I first was introduced to the doctrine of election; a lot of things went through my mind concerning whether this was fair of God; very tough concept to grasp, I still struggle a tiny bit. But once my eyes were opened to it from the Bible; it gives me a great deal of peace. Somewhat because I makes me understand pure grace; there is nothing in me that deserves this, nothing I can do to receive it, but also nothing I can do to lose it…why? Because it is pure grace.Do you think the Apostle misspoke?
1 Tim 2:2-5
3 This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
This doctrine of Limited Atonement constitutes for us a “different gospel”. this is the case because it does not reflect the Apostolic Teaching. The ancient Churches consider this to be a man made doctrine emanating from the Reformation.
Why bother to command and call everyone?
Acts 17:29-30
" While God has overlooked the times of human ignorance, now he commands all people everywhere to repent,"
Why does God waste His breath commanding things that He does not want?
Ok, then if God did not will for them to be saved, how is it that they rejected the purpose of God for themselves? Did they not, by failing to heed the call, do what He intended?
Luke 7:29-30
30 But by refusing to be baptized by him, the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves.)
Or, if this is not a reference to eternal life, then what purpose did they reject, and how did they do so?
Or do you think that Luke also misspoke himself?
I agree. Those who answer the call become the elect.
Well, help me out here. It seems to me that the context is salvation.
I am not sure why you think that Catholics believe that our religious affiliation has any bearing on who God chooses.
I think you have imagined this.
While I agree that spiritual pride and arrogance are indeed damning, Jesus only founded One Church, and only has One Body,.
Yes, but try to help me grasp it. I agree about the paradox, but I cannot reconcile these scriptures with the Calvanistic view that you are presenting.
Unfortunately, out limited vocabulary cannot express the thought, feeling and security that comes with pure grace. Thanks for allowing me to reflect again on it…aaahhhh!
More to the points: They rejected his “advice” or counsel. I don’t know how else to say more clearly.
You stated: "I am not sure why you think that Catholics believe that our religious affiliation has any bearing on who God chooses."
When I say “religious affiliation”; I mean Catholic. To be Catholic is to be in the right side; not to be is to be on the wrong side of God. The Council of Trent spells this out and I believe it is part of a catechism…I know I’ve seen it before in these forums many times…kind of like getting ones nose rubbed in dog doo by some.
Then you said "While I agree that spiritual pride and arrogance are indeed damning, Jesus only founded One Church, and only has One Body,. You wonder why I would think why I believe Catholics believe that being Catholic has bearing on who God chose?
I think in the near future, I may be lead to start a thread on the Doctrine of Election; I have been asked a couple of times about this already.
God bless you friend!
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