Why is predestination wrong

[PEPCIS]

PEPCIS;4756706:

Yes, original sin was God allowing, while not desiring, disobedience. Otherwise He’d be the “author of sin”.
In salvation, God wills none to perish, all to be saved, but allows the opposite. Man wills himself to hell-God never would

.

I’m sorry, but that’s wrong. God created Hell, not man. You give man too much credit. Man isn’t that powerful.

Hell was created to send all men there, but God, in His infinite mercy, has created a way of escape to all those who turn to Jesus.

 

[NonCatholic]

Oh No! Here you go again. It is not God’s will for all men to be saved.

So think about this again. Since there is only one God, one creator, therefore He is the one who created each and every one of us. With me so far?

If He willed for some to be saved and some not to be saved, SO HE PURPOSELY MADE PEOPLE SO HE CAN TORTURE THEM IN HELL because He is the one who created them and He is the one who willed to consign them to the dustbin of Hell.

Picture that in your head. Your god who loves you so saves you but then decides to create another your brother but God says, Nope this one I am gong to burn in hell.

Now ask yourself this. If you were god, would you do that? Would you create people just so you can torture them?

If you say yes, that means you are a psychopath.

If you say No, that means you are better than this god of yours.

Oh my friend God has something to say about this; listen to the Word and take heed.

Romans 9:14-24
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it {does} not {depend} on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience **vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? **23 And {He did so} to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 {even} us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

God’s creation is not for all, but whom He wills. n I would suggest you run to the confessional for basically calling God something He is not.

 

[benedictus2]

fhansen;4756777:

I’m sorry, but that’s wrong. God created Hell, not man.

Only if you think hell is a place.

You give man too much credit. Man isn’t that powerful.

But you have just shown that he is when you said that by sinning, he has somehow thwarted God’s plan of salvation for ALL man. That statement makes man more powerful than God.

Hell was created to send all men

there,
Oh my! You have a very twisted theology. Praise God that He is not like your god at all. Your god is a psychopath worse than Hannibal lechter.

but God, in His infinite mercy, has created a way of escape to all those who turn to Jesus.

Now you are contradicting yourself. How can that god be infinitely merciful when He created hell with the intention of sending ALL MEN there.

You are extremely illogical.

 

[benedictus2]

Oh my friend God has something to say about this; listen to the Word and take heed.

Romans 9:14-24
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it {does} not {depend} on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience **vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? **23 And {He did so} to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 {even} us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

God’s creation is not for all, but whom He wills. n I would suggest you run to the confessional for basically calling God something He is not.

Right. Another one with a psychopath for a god. I will answer your post in detail tomorrow. This is too ridiculous at this hour of the night.

Perhaps you should think (exercise your rational faculty) and re-read my post and my reply to pepcis just above this one.

 

[fhansen]

fhansen;4756777:

I’m sorry, but that’s wrong. God created Hell, not man. You give man too much credit. Man isn’t that powerful.

Hell was created to send all men

there, but God, in His infinite mercy, has created a way of escape to all those who turn to Jesus.
Hell is the rejection of and separation from God, willed by man. We’re in “exile” from Him here already, cast out of the garden-we decide if it’s to be a permanent separation or not. If we develop a love for Him here, hungering and thirsting for righteousness, we’ll attain eternal life, trusting confidently in His promises. But we’re always aware that we must practice vigilance, keeping the oil in our lamps full- maintaining and increasing our love for God while recognizing the frailties of human understanding; that here we grope towards the light, walking by faith and not by sight until then we “see face to face” and our union with God is consummated. And we’re aware that we must be on guard against the “sin that so easily entangles”.

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. Heb 12:1-3

This verse has probably already been quoted but it remains pertinent:

The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, **not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2Pet 3:9
**

 

[PEPCIS]

"benedictus:

If God’s ORIGINAL desire was for all people to stand before him faultess, you are saying that somewhere along the line He changed His mind.

PEPCIS:

No. I’m saying that man (collectively through Adam) fell into sin. God’s original design is to have fellowship.

When you say God had an original

design, that means that later on He had a design that was not original.

You really aren’t that thick. No, that doesn’t mean anything of the sort. We know, for example, that God originally intended for man to stay married to his wife until one of them died. But, later, Moses began to give “bills of divorcement”. This was not God’s original design for man, but man changed the design, not God.

In the same manner, God originally designed for all men to have fellowship with their Creator, but man changed the design, not God.

This design is still in effect, which is why we read in I Timothy “Who will have all men to be saved…” He still desires this. The real question is "How many is “all?” But you aren’t ready to bear that question.

benedictus:

Precise terminology is important my friend.

Yes, and reading comprehension is important, as well.

If God’s ORIGINAL desire was for all people to stand before him faultess, you are saying that somewhere along the line He changed His mind. Care to elucidate when this happened?

PEPCIS:

Somewhere around 6,000 years ago.

benedictus:

God changed His mind 6000 years ago???!!! Wow, and you are privy to that info?!!!

As I pointed out earlier, God didn’t “change His mind.” He knew all about this from before the foundation of the world. However, when this occurred was around 6,000 years ago. You can read it for yourself in God’s Holy Word.

So now you are saying that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD TO SAVE ALL MEN because a piddly little creature called Adam sinned?

PEPCIS:

No, I’m saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE for man to save himself because the Bible indicates that we have inherited Adam’s sin.

benedictus:

But that is not

what you said.

I know what I said. You are having a bit of difficulty in reading what I said.

benedictus:

So originally God desired all men to be with Him, but that is now IMPOSSIBLE because of Adam’s sin that was passed on to us.

If you could only understand what that means, we’d be all done our discussion.

benedictus:

So my conclusion is correct that somewhow Adam thwarted God’s plan and made it IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD to have His ORIGINAL plan of having us all with Him.

Well, I prefer to accept the Biblical understanding which is that God already knew that Adam would sin, and had provided an acceptable sacrifice in the form of His own Son. The proof that He knew that Adam would sin is found in Ephesians 1:4 [SIGN]“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love”[/SIGN] and also in I Peter 1:20, [SIGN]“Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you”[/SIGN]

benedictus:

You really have to be careful with what you write.

Pot, kettle, black.

 

[PEPCIS]

"benedictus:

Therefore Adam is more powerful than God because He cannot undo what Adam had done?

PEPCIS:

You have a funny view of the Bible.

No YOU have a funny view of the Bible.

I suppose that looking in from the outside, you might say that.

If God wills that “Not that all men would come to salvation,” therefore God (who the Bible says is a loving God) created men for the sole purpose of sending them to hell.

PEPCIS:

Strange.

benedictus:

I thought so too.

If you think it’s strange, then why did you write it?

benedictus:

Considering that you call yourself a Christian…

Actually, I never have professed it openly, but I certainly am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, because it is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes.

If you are a believer, I find it odd that you continually attack another believer without any cause to do so.

benedictus:

…I wondered why you have such a murderous god in your head.

You should be more specific. When have I ever presented a “murderous god”?

Picture this: a mother and father who keeps having babies so that they can love some and the rest they can torture and burn in flames for the sheer delight of it. That is the kind of god you have in your head.

PEPCIS:

What makes you think you are a child of God?

benedictus:

And how exactly does that follow from my post?

Well, let’s take it a bit slower.

You related an analogy which indicated that you believed that I am portraying a God that creates children to burn them in Hell for eternity just for the “sheer delight of it.”

While God certainly created Adam and Eve, not all of the prodigy of the first family are God’s children. So, the question stands: “What makes you think that you are a child of God?”

How do you know that you are His?

benedictus:

Evading my conclusions because they are unpalatable?

LOL You really think that much of yourself?

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Well, thanks for your OPINION.

benedictus:

Actually it is not opinion.

PEPCIS:

Actually, it is.

…unless your learning fall into the above categories, sorry to say but… yours remain… opinion.

You have nothing but OPINION. Say it over and over.

 

[PEPCIS]

God does NOT PROJECT His will unto us. He REVEALS His Will to us.

Course not. He’s a “loving God.” He would never send anyone to Hell.

benedictus:

When you sin, is it God WILLING you to sin because He is PROJECTING His will on you?

No, and I never said it was. That is drummed up by your convoluted thinking.

You should slow down and take a breather…

 

[PEPCIS]

Now ask yourself this. If you were god…Would you create people just so you can torture them?

I really am sorry that you are confused about the doctrine of justification. But EVERYONE has been damned to hell, and only some have been saved from those pits.

Now you need to answer this: Does ANYONE go to hell?

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Hell was created to send all men there…

Oh my! You have a very twisted theology. Praise God that He is not like your god at all. Your god is a psychopath worse than Hannibal lechter.

[SIGN]“He that believes on Jesus is not condemned [to hell]: but he that does not believe is already condemned [to hell], because he has never believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (John 3:18)[/SIGN]

 

[PEPCIS]

This verse has probably already been quoted but it remains pertinent:

The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, **not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2Pet 3:9
**

Very good. But remember context. Context is IMPORTANT. It is also important that you read the right version, because not all versions are equal. The version you have quoted has changed “usward” to “you”. The “you” should be plural, which is how the King James renders it. The difference is important.

[SIGN]The Lord is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.[/SIGN]

God is longsuffering and patient to the elect (us-ward), not willing that any of the elect should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[benedictus2]

If you are a believer, I find it odd that you continually attack another believer without any cause to do so.

I am not attacking you. I am attacking your belief, your doctrine. I am showing here the inconsistencies in your belief. The little lies hidden in the half truths. Because small or great, a lie is a lie. And the devil is the father of lies.

That you belive this is not your fault. That is only what you have been taught and I don’t hold that against you.

You should be more specific. When have I ever presented a “murderous god”?

Read my post slowly. Then you will know that this murderous god is the god of your belief. The murderous god conclusion FOLLOWS from your statements. Think about it. Slowly/

Well, let’s take it a bit slower.

No need. I get your post loud and clear.

You related an analogy which indicated that you believed that I am portraying a God that creates children to burn them in Hell for eternity just for the “sheer delight of it.”

It is and it is not an analogy. This is just to paint a picture for you of the god that one comes up with if one were to believe what you have written about him in your posts. The analogy follows from your statements. That is why when I responded I, I responded to your particular statements; sometimes to just one and sometimes to an entire paragraph of yours.

While God certainly created Adam and Eve, not all of the prodigy of the first family are God’s children. So, the question stands: “What makes you think that you are a child of God?”

THERE! YOU HAVE DONE IT AGAIN!

And you wonder why I get so frustrated.

“NOT ALL OF THE PRODIGY OF THE FIRST FAMILY ARE GOD’S CHILDREN!!!”

SO WHOSE CHILDREN ARE THEY SINCE IT IS GOD WHO CREATED THEM?

Have you ever read Psalm 139. “You formed me in my mother’s womb”.

Was it the devil who did the forming of some? Can the devil create?

How do you know that you are His?

I am not going to answer this because this will derail the thread.

Start a new thread on this and I will post.
Or if you like I will PM you. Let me know.

LOL You really think that much of yourself?

Nope. Just knowing when a post is irrelevant and aimed at evasion.

 

[benedictus2]

I really am sorry that you are confused about the doctrine of justification. But EVERYONE has been damned to hell, and only some have been saved from those pits.

And you dare ask me how come I say your god is a murderous god? You’re heralding it to the world it seems with every post.

 

[benedictus2]

You have nothing but OPINION. Say it over and over.

Okay, prove it then!

Prove that the correct rendition is “God’s counsel” not “God’s plan” or “God’s purpose.”

Waiting with bathed breath

 

[benedictus2]

If you think it’s strange, then why did you write it?

Oh Pepcis!

The “strange” comment is about you. I thought it strange that you, a Christian should have a rather evil god in your head. THAT is what I consider strange.

This habit of yours of chopping statements up and gettng the wrong meaning is really frustrating.

But I guess that is just par for the course. Protestants have a habit of chopping up the Bible and doing an exegesis on half a verse to the exclusion of the chapter and book.

 

[PEPCIS]

Start a new thread on this and I will post.

No thanks. Maybe later.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

I really am sorry that you are confused about the doctrine of justification. But EVERYONE has been damned to hell, and only some have been saved from those pits.

And you dare ask me how come I say your god is a murderous god? You’re heralding it to the world it seems with every post.

I guess you are right - we don’t worship the same god.

 

[PEPCIS]

Okay, prove it then!

Prove that the correct rendition is “God’s counsel” not “God’s plan” or “God’s purpose.”

Waiting with bathed breath

I already did prove it.

 

[benedictus2]

I guess you are right - we don’t worship the same god.

And you are happy to be with a psychopath for a god for all eternity?