Why is predestination wrong

[SHW]

I really am sorry that you are confused about the doctrine of justification. But EVERYONE has been damned to hell, and only some have been saved from those pits.

Now you need to answer this: Does ANYONE go to hell?

Yes, Adam’s sin condemned us all and made us enemies of God. (Romans 5)

However, He sent His only begotten Son to save us by His redemptive sacrifice on the cross and we receive the merits of His sacrifice through Baptism. He still loved us even though we alienated ourselves from Him through Adam’s sin. (John 3:16) He chose to have mercy on us and now reconciles each one of us to Him through Baptism. He desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth and Jesus died as a ransom for all men. (1 Timothy 2:3-7)

Acts 22:16 “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” (cf. Matthew 28:19)

After we are reconciled to God through Baptism, then we must continue in this grace in order to eventually inherit eternal life. To continue in grace means to obey God’s commandments and produce good fruits until our deaths.

(Acts 2:41-43)“So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.”

Acts 14:21-22 "And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

Romans 11:22-23 “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”

1 Timothy 4:16 “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”

Luke 18:18-23 “Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 20 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’” 21 And he said, “All these things I have kept from my youth.” 22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
23 But when he heard this, he became very sorrowful, for he was very rich.”

Those who refuse to believe in God and those who do not obey His commandments go to hell. Those who do not produce good fruit also go to hell. (cf. Matthew 25:32-46) Good fruit (good works) prove we have a living saving faith.

Revelation 21:7-8 "He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “…when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,”

Blessings to you,
SHW

 

[SHW]

MGLechner is correct. St Augustine does have a theory on predestination. It is in his work on Grace and Free Will. St Thomas and Molina also have advanced theories.

And while the Church affirms pre-destination of the elect, she does not say how this works.

CCC 600 “To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.”

Read more at scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a4p2.htm#600

God’s foreknowledge of every person’s free will choices determine if he/she is “predestined” by God for eternal life.

Blessings,
SHW

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Hi,I was wondering about,Romans:8:29-30 Eph:1:5,1:11 What do you think? Nancy Thank You

 

[benedictus2]

You really aren’t that thick. No, that doesn’t mean anything of the sort. We know, for example, that God originally intended for man to stay married to his wife until one of them died. But, later, Moses began to give “bills of divorcement”. This was not God’s original design for man, but man changed the design, not God.

In the same manner, God originally designed for all men to have fellowship with their Creator, but man changed the design, not God.

Man did not change God’s design. Man changed his interpretation of God’s design. Get that?

God’s design for marraige remained the same. Man in saying divorce is okay did not follow God’s design but the design remains the same as Jesus affirmed.

So yes you are right. I am not thick

This design is still in effect, which is why we read in I Timothy “Who will have all men to be saved…” He still desires this. The real question is "How many is “all?” But you aren’t ready to bear that question.

Which proves my above point. Man is unable to change that design that is why it is still in effect.

You contradict yourself once more.

As I pointed out earlier, God didn’t “change His mind.” He knew all about this from before the foundation of the world.

But you said that man was able to change God’s design (see above). How can man change God’s design. Everytime you say something ridiculous like that you are making man to be more powerful than God. We may be able to get the train slightly derailed by our failings, but God’s design remain the same, that He created us for Himself.

However, when this occurred was around 6,000 years ago. You can read it for yourself in God’s Holy Word.

Now that I don’t know. Can you give me chapter and verse?

 

[benedictus2]

Oh my friend God has something to say about this; listen to the Word and take heed.

Romans 9:14-24
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it {does} not {depend} on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience **vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? **23 And {He did so} to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 {even} us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

God’s creation is not for all, but whom He wills. n I would suggest you run to the confessional for basically calling God something He is not.

Non Catholic, read again your post above. Where does it say that God created some men just for the purpose of damning them? Because that is what Pepcis’s post amount to.

All that your post says is that God is God and He wills what He wills. And that is true.

But if you go back to Pepcis’ post, he is saying that man is somehow able to thwart God’s plan. If this is so, this makes him more powerful than God. Which reduces God to a being who is unable to Will what He Wills and this is contrary to what you posted above.

---

If anything, your post just proves my point again.

 

[benedictus2]

Ok, so I’m misguided. I still want to know how to become a Christian, because I may want to share my faith with others. Please share with me how I can bring others to become a Christian.

JOIN RCIA AND BE RECEIVED INTO THE CHURCH IF YOU WANT TO BE A FULL CHRISTIAN.

 

[benedictus2]

I really am sorry that you are confused about the doctrine of justification. But EVERYONE has been damned to hell, and only some have been saved from those pits.

Now you need to answer this: Does ANYONE go to hell?

No, I am not confused about the doctrine of Justification. You on the otherhand have a distorted understanding of how justification works.

If as you say "everyone has already been damned to hell," and since there is no escaping from hell, then how can anyone be saved from those pits?

And no, I don’t know if anyone is in hell.

So since I have answered your question, I think it only fair that you answer mine.

benedictus2:

***Now ask yourself this. If you were god…Would you create people just so you can torture them? ***

 

[benedictus2]

I know what I said. You are having a bit of difficulty in reading what I said.

Well apparently not. Here it is again, what you said:

PEPCIS:

**“*It says that God’s original desire was for all people to stand before him faultless, but because of Adam’s sin passed upon to all men, this is impossible.” ***

And here is my reply:
So originally God desired all men to be with Him, but that is now IMPOSSIBLE because of Adam’s sin that was passed on to us.

So my conclusion is correct that somewhow Adam thwarted God’s plan and made it IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD to have His ORIGINAL plan of having us all with Him.

If you could only understand what that means, we’d be all done our discussion.

That is just it. Until now, you still have no idea of the implication of what you keep saying, that somehow. Adam made it IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD TO REDEEM US ALL. A pidlly lilttle creature was able to make something IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD TO DO.
I have already laid out the logical conclusions for you. All you need to do is follow the logic. If there is error in the conclusion then show where it errs.

Let’s make that simpler. If Batman’s plan is to rid Gotham City of crime but the Joker make it IMPOSSIBLE for Batman to implement that plan, who is more powerful then, Batman or the Joker?

When you say IMPOSSIBLE, you are saying can never, ever be done. Somehow, Adam has managed to handcuff God so He is unable ever to do something He has set out to do.

Well, I prefer to accept the Biblical understanding which is that God already knew that Adam would sin, and had provided an acceptable sacrifice in the form of His own Son. The proof that He knew that Adam would sin is found in Ephesians 1:4

But this is just what you don’t get. It is not whether the Bible is correct or not. It is your understanding of the Bible that is in question here. It is YOUR interpretation that is in question. If you will start thinking logically, you will see what I am getting at.

PEPCIS:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world

, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love"

PEPCIS:

and also in 1 Peter 1:20 “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you”

And these are all beautiful and edifying verses. But where does it say in those verses that He has also CHOSEN to send a large portion of humanity to hell?

Pot, kettle, black.

I am not talking here about harsh language or anything like that. I mean here that you really ought to follow the logic of what you write before writing them to see if they actually make sense because so far you keep contradicting yourself.

We must read the Bible but it does not mean that we must abandon reason when we do.

 

[benedictus2]

This design is still in effect, which is why we read in I Timothy “Who will have all men to be saved…” He still desires this. The real question is "How many is “all?” But you aren’t ready to bear that question.

I missed your question when I first replied.

So enlighten me. How many is all? So now you are saying here that all does not mean “all”?

And yes, I am sure I can handle whatever number you throw at me.

 

[benedictus2]

Oh my friend God has something to say about this; listen to the Word and take heed.

Romans 9:14-24
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”.
.
.
whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

God’s creation is not for all, but whom He wills. I would suggest you run to the confessional for basically calling God something He is not.

I have just realized that I missed this last line of your post.

God’s creation is for those whom He wills? Right?

Question: **How do you know that He does not will it FOR **ALL?

Which passage says that He has WILLED that some will not be saved?

You see it is your reading that is in error. Just because it is written that He will have mercy on whoever He will have mercy, you jumped to the conclusion that He will have mercy only on some. But that is not what it says at all.

All it says is that it wll be God’s choice on whoever he will have mercy.

And you know what? He has mercy on all of us.

Why? ecause He created us all. Each and everyone one of us, He formed in our mother’s womb.

The God who created us out of love, who loves us enough to send His only Begotten Son to redeem us is not selective.

Ask yourself this, if you have children, would you love and have mercy on all your children or would this only apply to some of your children? If you answer some, then you are not a very good parent at all. You are biased. If you answer all, then that means you are better than God because according to you God loves only some of his children.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Hell was created to send all

men there, but God, in His infinite mercy, has created a way of escape to all those who turn to Jesus.

Matthew 25:41

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:”

Hell was created for the devil and his angel followers. However, all men who do not know God…and those who do not obey His gospel (commandments) will also end up there.

And this is different than what I said? Why are you being so picky?

Number One: This verse DOES NOT SAY that Hell was created specifically for ONLY the devil and his angels, but what it does say is that it is a place that was prepared for them. Why was it prepared for them? Because they refuse to follow the King of the Universe.

Number Two: It coud EASILY be argued that hell was created for ALL those who reject God, simply from the observation that God is omniscience. Are the devil and his angels “those who reject God”? Yes. Are the men and women who end up in hell “those who reject God?” Yes.

When we read the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, it is quite clear that hell is a place reserved for those evil doers in this life who reject God and His plan for them.

 

[PEPCIS]

Picture this: a mother and father who keeps having babies so that they can love some and the rest they can torture and burn in flames for the sheer delight of it. That is the kind of god you have in your head.

PEPCIS:

What makes you think you are a child of God?

benedictus:

And how exactly does that follow from my post?

PEPCIS:

Well, let’s take it a bit slower.

You related an analogy which indicated that you believed that I am portraying a God that creates children to burn them in Hell for eternity just for the “sheer delight of it.”

While God certainly created Adam and Eve, not all of the prodigy of the first family are God’s children. So, the question stands: “What makes you think that you are a child of God?”

How do you know that you are His?

benedictus:

THERE! YOU HAVE DONE IT AGAIN!

And you wonder why I get so frustrated.

“NOT ALL OF THE PRODIGY OF THE FIRST FAMILY ARE GOD’S CHILDREN!!!”

SO WHOSE CHILDREN ARE THEY SINCE IT IS GOD WHO CREATED THEM?

Have you ever read Psalm 139. “You formed me in my mother’s womb”.

Was it the devil who did the forming of some? Can the devil create?

Those are decent questions which have decent answers available.

On the one hand, you acknowledge (as all men should) that God is the Creator of everyone, and we all owe our allegiance to Him.

On the other hand, God is extremely clear in His Word that only those who give their allegiance to Him are HIS CHILDREN. Those who don’t aren’t. I’ll be glad to point out those verses to you if you need me to.

You still have yet to answer my question: Do you believe that EVERYONE gets to heaven in the end? Or is Hell merely a stopover toward Heaven for some who have not followed God in this life?

How do you know that you are His?

benedictus:

I am not going to answer this because this will derail the thread.

The question goes DIRECTLY to the thread. Your answer will give us a clue as to why you view predestination the way that you do.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

I guess you are right - we don’t worship the same god.

And you are happy to be with a psychopath for a god for all eternity?

I should note that we both should be very careful how we speak about the God that we worship. If I really believe you to be a follower of the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth, then I need to treat Him with respect, and not refer to Him as anything other than a wonderful and Glorious Father.

I am sorry for how I worded that.

 

[PEPCIS]

So my dear friend in Christ Jesus, allow me to ask you…Do you “confess your sins?”

Yes.

Do you Confess your sins in the way and manner that Jesus desires you to do it?

Yes.

This is not the same question asked twice

John 20:"21Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 if you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Jesus was speaking here to His Apostles who following His Command, founded the RCC.

You have absolutely no proof of this. This is just Catholic propaganda. Jesus founded the Church, not anybody else.

He gave this august power to only the Apostles, Popes, Bishops and Catholic Priest.

Wrong, He gave it to the Church.

 

[PEPCIS]

[SIGN]"I give them eternal

life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand." (John 10:28)[/SIGN]

This verse clearly implies that there are many that would try to pluck them from Jesus’ hand - like sin, or the world, or Satan, or evil wolves in sheep’s clothing - but none will be able to do so.

Implicit in this verse is the knowledge that Jesus is God, and therefore is Omnipotent - who could ever snatch them from His hand? The very thought is ridiculous.

They never ever get into God’s hand unless

they are going to be saved in the end.

No, no, no, no. God doesn’t say that He saves only those that preservere to the end. He says that HE WILL save those, and that no one can pluck them out of His hand.

He also says, in Romans 8, that there is an unbroken progression of His will which begins with

• foreknowledge - This is God’s knowledge being the result of declaring His actions will be carried out as He has predetermined
• predestination - This is God’s declaring His actions will be carried out
• Calling - This is God’s election, which is carried out according to His foreknowledge by His determinative will
• Justification - This is the process whereby God renders His elect guiltless of any crime
• Glorification - This is a continual process which will result in complete restoration and Glory with God in His presence.

[SIGN]“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”[/SIGN]

What is so significant about this is that this unbroken chain of events in a believer’s life is just as good as DONE. It is a fantastic picture of hope that God has given to us.

What’s more, we can rejoice with Paul when he says:

[SIGN]“What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?”[/SIGN]

Exactly. Why should any Christian ever fear the evil one, when we have a God who WILL perform His will in our lives, and will not leave us or forsake us? Our salvation is sure.

 

[ncgolf]

[SIGN]“What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?”[/SIGN]

Exactly. Why should any Christian ever fear the evil one, when we have a God who WILL perform His will in our lives, and will not leave us or forsake us? Our salvation is sure.

Whoa … you read too much into this … what does it mean “God be for us” … I do not read this as a guarantee.

If God is for us … what does this mean … it means God has given us, the faithful, the weapons and armor necessary to combat the evil one in this lifetime. If God is for us we have grace, those saints in heaven, the angels, Jesus, Scripture, prayer my list short but you get my meaning … all of those are available to us to help and guide us through our earthly tribulations … but make no mistake the evil one hunts and chases us through this lifetime, Peter says to “resist steadfast in the faith”.

Look at the LOTR symbolism … Gandalf as the priest, Legolas symbolizing the angelic, the other men during the battles against the forces of evil. The battles are bloody, ferocious for the evil does not stop … the evil one is relentless in his pursuit. Who can the evil one gloat over more the proud or the humble. It is only after the passage from this life that we become eternally secure.

Who can be against us … their name is legion …

Scripture says … “Your Adversary, the devil, goes about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.” Paul assures us that we must contend against “the wiles of the devil.” St. James says that we must “resist the devil.”

God being for us gives us the weapons and tools necessary to fight the good fight on earth …not only for ourselves but for each other … we use these tools to support our weakend brothers and sisters … to help them put on the armor of God.

 

[PEPCIS]

"benedictus:

When you say God had an original design, that means that later on He had a design that was not original.

PEPCIS:

You really aren’t that thick. No, that doesn’t mean anything of the sort. We know, for example, that God originally intended for man to stay married to his wife until one of them died. But, later, Moses began to give “bills of divorcement”. This was not God’s original design for man, but man changed the design, not God.

In the same manner, God originally designed for all men to have fellowship with their Creator, but man changed the design, not God.

Man did not change God’s design. Man changed his interpretation

of God’s design. Get that?

God’s design remains the same, no matter what. However, man takes God’s design and then modifies it to his liking. You want to call that “interpretation of God’s design”, then that’s fine with me.

This design is still in effect, which is why we read in I Timothy “Who will have all men to be saved…” He still desires this. The real question is "How many is “all?” But you aren’t ready to bear that question.

benedictus:

Which proves my above point. Man is unable to change that design that is why it is still in effect.

If “Man is unable to change that design”, then why is it that he has changed God’s design and perverted it into something that God never intended? The answer is simple, because man changed (exchanged) God’s design for his own design.

benedictus:

You contradict yourself once more.

Hardly. The Bible tells us that man “changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.”

Man doesn’t want God’s original design, so they take God’s design and modify it, or they outright reject it wholesale in preference of their own design.

But in the end, I don’t see that we disagree. Unless you WANT to disagree.

 

[PEPCIS]

JOIN RCIA AND BE RECEIVED INTO THE CHURCH IF YOU WANT TO BE A FULL CHRISTIAN.

Ok, so all I have to do is to tell others to join RCIA, and they will become a Christian? Where is that taught in Scripture?

 

[PEPCIS]

No, I am not confused about the doctrine of Justification. You on the otherhand have a distorted understanding of how justification works.

If as you say "everyone has already been damned to hell," and since there is no escaping from hell, then how can anyone be saved from those pits?

Please be more careful with what I say. I never said that everyone was already IN hell. I said that we are all born condemned to hell already. So I am not saying that everyone is in hell and since there is no escaping from hell that they are damned already for all eternity.

God tells us clearly in John 3:18 that we are all standing in damnation of hell when we are outside of Christ, and that our only hope to not enter that pit is to trust in Jesus.

Does ANYONE go to hell?

benedictus:

And no, I don’t know if anyone is in hell.

Please be more clear. Do you say that you don’t think anyone goes to hell?

benedictus:

So since I have answered your question, I think it only fair that you answer mine.

“Now ask yourself this. If you were god…Would you create people just so you can torture them?”

Since you don’t seem to believe that anyone goes to hell, I’m not sure how answering that will help. If everyone ends up in heaven, then the real disagreement between you and I has nothing to do with whether God “tortures” people in hell, but whether He sends them there at all.

Not only that, but your answers are still indicating that you really fail to understand the doctrine of justification, because you think that if a judge sends someone to jail for the rest of their life that apparently that is too cruel. There is an appropriate saying: “You do the crime, you do the time.”

 

[PEPCIS]

So originally God desired all men to be with Him, but that is now IMPOSSIBLE because of Adam’s sin that was passed on to us.

[/quote]

Yes, that is true.

benedictus:

So my conclusion is correct that somewhow Adam thwarted God’s plan and made it IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD to have His ORIGINAL plan of having us all with Him.

Why do you say that? How could this mean that Adam thwarted God’s plan? All it means is that Adam’s sin had consequences. God’s plans continue on just as they were originally determined from before the foundation of the world.

So originally God desired all men to be with Him, but that is now IMPOSSIBLE because of Adam’s sin that was passed on to us.

benedictus:

That is just it. Until now, you still have no idea of the implication of what you keep saying, that somehow

. Adam made it IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD TO REDEEM US ALL. A pidlly lilttle creature was able to make something IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD TO DO.
I have already laid out the logical conclusions for you. All you need to do is follow the logic. If there is error in the conclusion then show where it errs.

The error is in your insistence that I am claiming something that I am not. I am not, nor have I ever tried to say that Adam’s sin will make it impossible for God’s plan to come to fruition.

benedictus:

Let’s make that simpler. If Batman’s plan is to rid Gotham City of crime but the Joker make it IMPOSSIBLE for Batman to implement that plan, who is more powerful then, Batman or the Joker?

Let’s make it simpler than that. When God created Adam and Eve, His original intention was to enjoy His creation. When Adam fell into sin, God’s plan was not foiled, because He foresaw this, and allowed it to occur within His plan.

God noted that His punishment was being passed onto all men, and it was clear because thorns and thistles and pain in child-bearing still plague (wo)man to this day.

benedictus:

And these are all beautiful and edifying verses. But where does it say in those verses that He has also CHOSEN to send a large portion of humanity to hell?

I never said that they did. I cited those verses to establish that God’s plan has not been thwarted. (and I see that you still persist in claiming that hell is not for man).