Why is predestination wrong

[SHW]

**
This is also why the Bible repeatedly stresses that salvation is wholly God’s work. Consider these passages:

• Ephesians 2:8 says even our faith is a gift from God.
• In 2 Thessalonians 2:13, the apostle Paul tells his readers, “God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation.”
• 2 Timothy 1:9 informs us that God “has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.”
  
  Or this one; did God chose me or did I chose Him; the answer is both. The good thing is that we accept the things we cannot fully understand by faith, trusting and knowing God is perfectly fair and perfectly just.**

Yes, our faith is a gift from God. Our reconciliation is a gift from God.

Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

But this verse does not address what we must do after our reconciliation in order to maintain it. This verse does not say that once we receive this free gift of reconciliation with God that we are guaranteed that we cannot lose it. Many persons assume this, but it is not supported by Scripture.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 “But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.” RSV

Yes, God has chosen us from the beginning to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. This does not say that it is a one-time event. Other Scriptures show that it is a life-long process. God desires that all of us be saved so He made it possible for all of us to be saved. But not all of us are saved. It is because of our own free will choices that we are not saved. (1 Timothy 2:3-6, 2 Peter 3:9)

God gave us “reconciliation” as a free gift from Him through the death of Jesus Christ. (Romans 5) He does not say that this is the end of the story.

Paul states Romans 5:10 “For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”

How are we saved much more by His life after our reconciliation?? He shows us, by example, how to enter eternal life. After our reconciliation with Him, we must imitate Him by fearing God (which means to love God by obeying His commandments) and producing good fruits if we desire to enter eternal life. (1 Corinthians 11:1, Acts 9:31, 1 John 5:3, Matthew 19:17, Colossians 1:10, Matthew 7:19)

2 Timothy 1:9 “who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,”

He saved us (reconciled us with God) through no works of our own as it was a free gift from God. But after He reconciled us to God, then we are responsible to maintain this reconciliation. He gives us all the necessary graces to do this. But we can spurn His graces if we choose to do so at any time after our reconciliation, and if we do not repent before our deaths, then we are lost for eternity. (Hebrews 10:26, Galatians 5:19-2, Romans 11:22, 1 Corinthians 3:17)

1 Timothy 4:16 “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”

Colossians 1:21-23 “And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23** if** indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.”

How did He predestine us?

He predestined (accepted) all persons from every nation who feared (loved and obeyed) Him and worked righteousness (produced good fruit).

Acts 10:35 “But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

God predestined all those whom He foresaw (by His omniscience) who died abiding in Him. This predestining happened before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-5 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens, 4 as he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blemish before him. In love 5 he destined us for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ, in accord with the favor of his will,"NAB

We were “in Him” before the foundation of the world because He foresaw that we actually were holy and blameless at our deaths.

John 14:23 “Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.”

Because God foresaw that we were abiding “in Him” at our deaths, He predestined us for eternal life.

SHW

 

[SHW]

Galatians 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the {life} which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.”

Do you think someone would know if Christ lived in them?

I personally know many so-called Christians who are committing fornication, etc. and they all believe that Christ is living in them and that they are saved and that they will be in heaven for eternity.

So, in answer to your question, I say “not necessarily.”

SHW

 

[Seeking12]

Yes, our faith is a gift from God. Our reconciliation is a gift from God.

Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

But this verse does not address what we must do after our reconciliation in order to maintain it. This verse does not say that once we receive this free gift of reconciliation with God that we are guaranteed that we cannot lose it. Many persons assume this, but it is not supported by Scripture.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 “But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.” RSV

Yes, God has chosen us from the beginning to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. This does not say that it is a one-time event. Other Scriptures show that it is a life-long process. God desires that all of us be saved so He made it possible for all of us to be saved. But not all of us are saved. It is because of our own free will choices that we are not saved. (1 Timothy 2:3-6, 2 Peter 3:9)

God gave us “reconciliation” as a free gift from Him through the death of Jesus Christ. (Romans 5) He does not say that this is the end of the story.

Paul states Romans 5:10 “For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”

How are we saved much more by His life after our reconciliation?? He shows us, by example, how to enter eternal life. After our reconciliation with Him, we must imitate Him by fearing God (which means to love God by obeying His commandments) and producing good fruits if we desire to enter eternal life. (1 Corinthians 11:1, Acts 9:31, 1 John 5:3, Matthew 19:17, Colossians 1:10, Matthew 7:19)

2 Timothy 1:9 “who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,”

He saved us (reconciled us with God) through no works of our own as it was a free gift from God. But after He reconciled us to God, then we are responsible to maintain this reconciliation. He gives us all the necessary graces to do this. But we can spurn His graces if we choose to do so at any time after our reconciliation, and if we do not repent before our deaths, then we are lost for eternity. (Hebrews 10:26, Galatians 5:19-2, Romans 11:22, 1 Corinthians 3:17)

1 Timothy 4:16 “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”

Colossians 1:21-23 “And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23** if** indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.”

How did He predestine us?

He predestined (accepted) all persons from every nation who feared (loved and obeyed) Him and worked righteousness (produced good fruit).

Acts 10:35 “But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

God predestined all those whom He foresaw (by His omniscience) who died abiding in Him. This predestining happened before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-5 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens, 4 as he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blemish before him. In love 5 he destined us for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ, in accord with the favor of his will,"NAB

We were “in Him” before the foundation of the world because He foresaw that we actually were holy and blameless at our deaths.

John 14:23 “Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.”

Because God foresaw that we were abiding “in Him” at our deaths, He predestined us for eternal life.

SHW

**If I understand you correctly, you seem to believe someone could loose there salvation, am I correct? I would contend that if someone could loose a gift from God, that they never actually ever received it. Would God recant on a gift?

Philippians 1:6 {For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. Sanctification is also the work of God. Just as justification and glorification.

1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not {really} of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but {they went out,} so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. **

 

[Seeking12]

I personally know many so-called Christians who are committing fornication, etc. and they all believe that Christ is living in them and that they are saved and that they will be in heaven for eternity.

So, in answer to your question, I say “not necessarily.”

SHW

**In a way I agree because many people are self deceived mainly because they are clueless as to what the Bible teaches because they do not read, much less be diligent in the study of it.

Some are told that because they professed they are saved, some think because they are attached or associated with a particular religion then they are saved. There can be many reasons; this is why Paul said to examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; many people never do this thinking they are okay with God. It is actually very sad because these are the people that the Lord will say “I never knew you”.

Then there are those you meet that show the evidence of their faith by the way they live there lives. They walk the walk and are obviously reading and learning the Scripture a God has commanded every believer. I always find it an interesting and wonderful experience, that when ever I meet someone that is truly saved; you feel as though you have known them for a lifetime; even more so than members of your own family. **

 

[ncgolf]

If I understand you correctly, you seem to believe someone could loose there salvation, am I correct? I would contend that if someone could loose a gift from God, that they never actually ever received it. Would God recant on a gift?

That’s the question in a nutshell … Catholics believe salvation is lost/gained at the particular judgement when one dies … you think once you proclaim faith your salvation is determined for eternity … regardless of any further action … but if you have been given the gift of faith does God expect a return on it.

No gift is given by God for one’s own personal gain … gifts are given to build up the Kingdom of God … that is the Christian mission … any other reason and you are nothing more than a mercenary.

God gives gifts … some choose to use them and some not … look at the parable of the talents Matthew 25:14-30. The master expects a return on the gifts (is not faith a gift) …you can see what happens … there does seem to be an accounting of one’s actions.

In the parable it seems to me all received at least some gifts … nobody received none… but the question is what is up with the last guy … the person had one talent but didn’t use it. So let’s say the person who was admonished in the parable was not given the gift of faith but some other gift … what was he judged on … what he was given … God only expected a return based on the one … you see he did not admonish the second for making less than the first … it is up to the Master to judge … we do not pre-judge ourselves.

 

[benedictus2]

The Romans passage you refer shows the result of unbelief. It also compares that to the one that believed through “faith”, which is consistent with the gospel.

As far as your last sentence, you are correct.
1 Corinthians 2:16 "For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ."

Galatians 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the {life} which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.”

Do you think someone would know if Christ lived in them?

St Paul also said that sin dwells in him and he does the the evil he does not want do to and does not do the good that he wants to do.

It sins sin lives in him the same time as Christ does.

So square these two point together.

 

[SHW]

If I understand you correctly, you seem to believe someone could loose there salvation, am I correct? I would contend that if someone could loose a gift from God, that they never actually ever received it. Would God recant on a gift?

We can definitely “lose” our salvation. I can receive a gift but not keep it. How do we keep the gift of “Salvation?” By fearing God which means “loving Him by keeping (obeying) His commandments” and also producing good fruits as proof of our love for Him.

God foresaw who would inherit eternal life before He created us because He saw the state of our souls at our deaths and it is this state of our souls at our deaths which is the determining factor as to whether we inherit eternal life or not. He only predestined those whom He foresaw that were in the state of sanctifying grace when they died.

Those whom God foresaw who died with sanctifying grace in their souls are “temples of God” because they had the Holy Spirit living in them (abiding in them) and these He predestined for heaven.

If they had no sanctifying grace (Holy Spirit’s grace) in their souls (temples) when they died, then either they had refused to be reconciled to God or else they had defiled their temples after their free gift of reconciliation from God and they did not repent before their deaths. God will destroy those persons who do not have the Holy Spirit abiding in them at their deaths. They will receive the wrath (punishment) of God instead of eternal life.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17** If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him**. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.”

When we sin mortal sins, then we defile our temples and the Holy Spirit moves out because He cannot live in a sinful soul (defiled temple), because He is Holy.

Galatians 5:18 “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.”

If we are listening to and cooperating with the Holy Spirit’s graces which we received at our baptisms and if we continue to fear God and we also produce good fruits; then He will continue to live in our souls and He will still be living in our souls at our deaths because we are abiding in each other. In other words, we are “led by the Spirit” and we are imitating Christ. There is no law against imitating Christ.(John 14:23) It is a loving relationship. (John 14:2l, 1 John 2:4, 1 Corinthians 11:1)

Galatians 5:19-21 “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

But, if we commit mortal sins, like those listed above, these sins put us “under the law” and we will be punished with the wrath of God (hell) because there are laws (commandments) against all of these sins and if we break the commandments, we will judged by them and found unworthy.. We will not be inheriting eternal life.

Hebrews 10:26-31 also explains this truth.

“For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries…Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.** And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” **

We can only be saved if we are still abiding in God and He in us, at our deaths. He makes His home with us on earth in our souls (minds, hearts, spirits) and when we die, we make our home with Him in heaven.

This is why it is a life-long process instead of a one-time event.

This is why James states 2:24:“You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

God knows the state of our souls at our deaths right now, but we do not and can not know, until we actually die.

SHW

 

[Seeking12]

That’s the question in a nutshell … Catholics believe salvation is lost/gained at the particular judgement when one dies … you think once you proclaim faith your salvation is determined for eternity … regardless of any further action … but if you have been given the gift of faith does God expect a return on it. Oh my, that must be hard to think you might loose salvation. Do you constantly wonder? As I mentioned in an earlier post, possibly another thread, there are many people that have made that profession, but as James has shown, faith without works is dead. Anyone that has been regenerated; not only knows, but the witnesses to that regeneration will be by those closest to that person…a conversion does not go unnoticed.

No gift is given by God for one’s own personal gain … gifts are given to build up the Kingdom of God … that is the Christian mission … any other reason and you are nothing more than a mercenary. I disagree, a gift from God is the greatest of personal gains. Paul said to die is gain; why? I do agree we are to proclaim the good news, which can be done in many ways, but the most predominate should be your life.

God gives gifts … some choose to use them and some not … look at the parable of the talents Matthew 25:14-30. The master expects a return on the gifts (is not faith a gift) …you can see what happens … there does seem to be an accounting of one’s actions. The parable of the talents is not so much about gifts as it is about the amount of exposure you have to the gospel and what you do with it. “From everyone who has been given much, much will be required” The one that buried the exposure he was given was a false servant, but this would be way off topic.

In the parable it seems to me all received at least some gifts … nobody received none… but the question is what is up with the last guy … the person had one talent but didn’t use it. So let’s say the person who was admonished in the parable was not given the gift of faith but some other gift … what was he judged on … what he was given … God only expected a return based on the one … you see he did not admonish the second for making less than the first … it is up to the Master to judge … we do not pre-judge ourselves.

 

[Seeking12]

St Paul also said that sin dwells in him and he does the the evil he does not want do to and does not do the good that he wants to do.

It sins sin lives in him the same time as Christ does.

So square these two point together.

**Hello,

That is an excellent question. We can start with Romans 6:2 “May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?”

Romans 6:10-14 "For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin {as} instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members {as} instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

This is a lifelong spiritual battle of the old nature versus the new nature. With the power of Christ we do overcome the old nature. Remember, Paul also said he beat his body into submission; that’s why I say this is the battles of battles in the Christian life; but the power that is in you is greater than all; praise God for that!**

 

[Seeking12]

We can definitely “lose” our salvation. I can receive a gift but not keep it. How do we keep the gift of “Salvation?” By fearing God which means “loving Him by keeping (obeying) His commandments” and also producing good fruits as proof of our love for Him. We have nothing to prove to God; He gave an unmerited gift. The works or fruits or whatever you want to call them come as a natural result of the gift. Who would not want to show their love to the Someone whom you love and has given the perfect love? A non-believer.

God foresaw who would inherit eternal life before He created us because He saw the state of our souls at our deaths and it is this state of our souls at our deaths which is the determining factor as to whether we inherit eternal life or not. He only predestined those whom He foresaw that were in the state of sanctifying grace when they died.
What exactly do you mean by “foresaw”; that He looked down the corridor if time?

Those whom God foresaw who died with sanctifying grace in their souls are “temples of God” because they had the Holy Spirit living in them (abiding in them) and these He predestined for heaven.

If they had no sanctifying grace (Holy Spirit’s grace) in their souls (temples) when they died, then either they had refused to be reconciled to God or else they had defiled their temples after their free gift of reconciliation from God and they did not repent before their deaths. God will destroy those persons who do not have the Holy Spirit abiding in them at their deaths. They will receive the wrath (punishment) of God instead of eternal life. Repent of what before their deaths?

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17** If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him**. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.”
Do you realize this is a spiritual temple?
When we sin mortal sins, then we defile our temples and the Holy Spirit moves out because He cannot live in a sinful soul (defiled temple), because He is Holy.

Galatians 5:18 “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.”

If we are listening to and cooperating with the Holy Spirit’s graces which we received at our baptisms and if we continue to fear God and we also produce good fruits; then He will continue to live in our souls and He will still be living in our souls at our deaths because we are abiding in each other. In other words, we are “led by the Spirit” and we are imitating Christ. There is no law against imitating Christ.(John 14:23) It is a loving relationship. (John 14:2l, 1 John 2:4, 1 Corinthians 11:1)

But, if we commit mortal sins, like those listed above, these sins put us “under the law” and we will be punished with the wrath of God (hell) because there are laws (commandments) against all of these sins and if we break the commandments, we will judged by them and found unworthy.. Isn’t the idea of the commandments to point out that we are sinners before a Holy God? Didn’t Jesus die on the cross for the propitiation of all of our sin?

“For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries…Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.** And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” **
This is a warning to unbelievers exposed to the gospel.

This is why it is a life-long process instead of a one-time event.
You lost me here. Being justified before God is instantaneous; then the process of the separation from sin becomes the lifelong process which we never fully achieve until our glorification; that is what the Bible teaches. It is all a gift of God; praise Him!

This is why James states 2:24:“You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”
I think you may not have the context correct, but I cannot say for sure without more (name removed by moderator)ut from you.
God knows the state of our souls at our deaths right now, but we do not and can not know, until we actually die.
**That must be a horrible thing to feel and go through; I can’t imagine what that must feel like. My heart really goes out to you; God never intended for His children to go through life like that. **

SHW

 

[fbl9]

**Are you saying you have asked Jesus into your heart and He refused? God reads the heart and knows the difference of a true heart of repentance and one that in not genuine. If this describes you; then you need to examine yourself and think about the times(s) you asked and was it because you simply needed out of a bad situation or did you come realizing that you have trampled under foot the Son of God and have nothing to offer God at all?

All I can tell you is that God brought me to a point in my life where I thought I was a decent person, especially compared to others, but in reality I was a dirty rotten filthy sinner before a Holy God which I had offended in so many ways and for many years. I was totally at His mercy; for I had nothing in myself to offer God that was good. Now my life has changed to the point when I look back at my old life, it seems like a dream, rather a nightmare and I would never want to go back to that “good person” I thought I was.**

Basically it sure felt like He refused.No i did not ask bc i was in a tight spot.I asked with sorrow for my sins.
The only people i compared myself to and thought i was better than was other catholics,comparing myself with your fellow misguided christians(although sincre) i did not really think of myself as better then them…i did not think of myself as a decent person i knew where i stood before God…

i would really like to see the scripture where we are instructed to invite Jesus in our hearts to be saved.

 

[Seeking12]

Basically it sure felt like He refused.No i did not ask bc i was in a tight spot.I asked with sorrow for my sins.
The only people i compared myself to and thought i was better than was other catholics,comparing myself with your fellow misguided christians(although sincre) i did not really think of myself as better then them…i did not think of myself as a decent person i knew where i stood before God…

i would really like to see the scripture where we are instructed to invite Jesus in our hearts to be saved.

**Mt 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Lu 11:9 "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. **

 

[Seeking12]

We can definitely “lose” our salvation. I can receive a gift but not keep it. How do we keep the gift of “Salvation?”

**Is this a Catholic teaching or your opinion? I’m speaking of your statement “We can definitely “lose” our salvation.”

How do you gain back that salvation after you lost it?**

 

[benedictus2]

**Is this a Catholic teaching or your opinion? I’m speaking of your statement “We can definitely “lose” our salvation.” **

How do you gain back that salvation after you lost it?

Repentance. Returning to the God of mercy and trying to keep to the narrow path wth His Grace.

Everytime we sin we lose a mortal sin, we lose salvation because the wages of sin is death.

But if we repent we become reconciled to God.

 

[benedictus2]

fb19:
*i would really like to see the scripture where we are instructed to invite Jesus in our hearts to be saved. *

**Mt 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Lu 11:9 "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. **

These passages does not answer fb19s question and are not related to salvation.

 

[benedictus2]

Come to Jesus friend. Ask Him into your heart and pray He will save you, repent of your sins before God, then follow Christ; treating Christ as Lord over your life and you will be saved!

That is a doctrine of man not supported by the Bible. There is no passage in the Bible that says you need to ask Jesus into your heart to be saved.

There are passages however that salvation comes from

1. being born of water and spirt
2. feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc
3. doing the will of the Father
4. eating His flesh and drinking His blood.

All the passages relating to this speak of salvation / eternal life / entry into the kingdom of God.

and in Acts it says:
"And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved. "

It seems according to that verse that to be saved is to be a member of the Catholic Church.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Here’s the thing: there are differences in the two words, but I do not believe that the interpreters meant to intimate anything different had taken place.

You keep on insisting on the use of exchange. I reject it. Why? Because it has a subtle error. What is that subtle error? It is found in the definition.

In defining exchange, you state that “The money did not become a ride, It is still money. But he swapped his money for a ride.”

Very good. So, if I adopt your definition, which I do, then I MUST reject “exchange” as a viable alternative to “change.” Why? Because God does not exchange anything. The word exchange carries with it the understanding that two parties are exchanging something.

As in the story of the taxi driver and the rider, an exchange took place. The taxi driver took money, in exchange for the rider to receive a ride. They each received something in return for what they offered.

In speaking of Romans 1:25, we see that “change” is the appropriate term to use, because what does God receive in place of a sinner’s acceptance of His Truth? “They exchanged the truth about God for a lie…” So, the sinner gives God a lie, and God gives the sinner His Truth?

You see how very little sense this makes?

Instead, what we have is like me taking the Book of Mormon off of my shelf (which I keep there for reference), and cutting it up into little pieces of confetti so that I can use it at a wedding party.

Are the little pieces of confetti still the Book of Mormon? Yes, of course they are. But they become of little use to anyone because it has been fundamentally altered. It was not exchanged. It was CHANGED.

For the same token, wicked men take God’s truth, and they chop it up into little pieces of confetti, to suit their own purposes. They fundamentally alter it, changing it into something that suits their own senses, and does not offend their notions of who God should be. These kind of men do not like the God of the Bible, so they alter God’s Truth about who He is to manufacture a God of their own liking.

I just Checked with my husband and I asked him if God would send you to hell,and I gave him a few minutes to think about it but he replyed right off GOD HAS UNCONDITIONAL LOVE! And Ben is right Man sends himself to Hell. God wants that none should perish. love of Christ Nancy:thumbsup:

 

[SHW]

Is this a Catholic teaching or your opinion? I’m speaking of your statement “We can definitely “lose” our salvation.” How do you gain back that salvation after you lost it?

This is Catholic teaching and my belief.

You gain back your salvation in this manner: You repent (you are sorry that you sinned); you confess your sin; you make a firm commitment/resolution to not repeat the sin; you make restitution for your sin; and you bear fruits worthy of your repentance.

James 5:16 “Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.”

1 John 2:1 “My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.”

1 John 3:7 "Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

Matthew 3:8 “Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,”

1 John 2:28 “And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.”

If we are ashamed before Him, it means that we are not saved.

If a righteous man sins, what does Scripture tell us actually happens to him?

Ezekiel 33:12-20 "Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people:

‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live (eternal life) because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die.(be damned)

If you transgress against God’s commandments after you become righteous, then you lose your righteousness and become unrighteous. None of your righteous works are remembered when you become unrighteous and if you die in this state of unrighteousness, then you are damned.

14 Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

If a wicked (unrighteous) man is sorry for his sin and repents and does what is lawful and right, and if he makes restitution for his sin, and walks in imitation of Christ until he dies without relapsing into sin, then none of his serious sins that he committed will be against him on Judgment Day and he will inherit eternal life.

17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair!

18 **When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it.
**
20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.”

We are judged by our ways (works) as proof of our faith

SHW

 

[SHW]

What exactly do you mean by “foresaw”; that He looked down the corridor if time?

Yes, He saw everything that happened to everybody before He created them.

by Seeking12: Repent of what before their deaths?

Serious sins which cause the death of our souls (damnation).

by Seeking12: Do you realize this is a spiritual temple?

**
Our spiritual temples are our souls.**

Mark 8:36-38 "For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 37 Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Luke 12:20 “But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?’”

1 Thessalonians 5:23 “Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Hebrews 4:12 “For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

Hebrews 10:39 “But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”

If we draw back to perdition after we are saved, then we lose our salvation. If we believe until we die, then we endure to the end; to “to the saving of our soul” at death.

James 5:19-20 “Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.”

A person has to have the truth first in order to wander from it. If we can not lose our salvation, then there would be no need to turn him back in order to save his soul from death and there would be no need to cover a multitude of sins.

to be continued…

SHW

 

[SHW]

Isn’t the idea of the commandments to point out that we are sinners before a Holy God? Didn’t Jesus die on the cross for the propitiation of all of our sin?

Yes, Jesus died on the cross for the propitiation of all of our sins (both Adam’s and our own) and they are all removed at our baptisms. We are sanctified by baptism. 1 Corinthians 6:11 After baptism, we must remain in this sanctification. If we sin willfully after our baptisms, then Jesus’ sacrifice no longer saves us (there no longer remains a sacrifice for our sins). We have trampled the blood of Jesus under our feet when we sinned after He sanctified us and we insulted the Holy Spirit who had taken up residence in our temples (souls). In other words, we have defiled our souls/temples and if we die in this state of unrighteousness, then we will be destroyed.

1 Corinthians 3:16-18 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.”

Hebrews 10:26-31 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Notice he was sanctified first (saved) and after that free gift was received through baptism, he then trampled the Son of God underfoot by his sins and by doing this he counted Jesus’ sacrifice a common thing instead of the most precious and holy gift that it actually was?

To “come to the knowledge of the truth” means that you are “saved.” They cannot be separated.

1 Timothy 2:3 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (See 2 Timothy 3:2-7)

to be continued…