Why is predestination wrong

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Hi Peter Holter, 🙂

Thank you for the elucidating posts. They are excellent for explaining predestination. I now know that I used the word “determines” in an incorrect manner. Thank you for pointing it out to me and supplying the proof for my error. It is much appreciated.

Pax,
SHW
 
“He proceeds to say: ‘As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except ye abide in me.’ A great encomium on grace, my brethren,— one that will instruct the souls of the humble, and stop the mouths of the proud. Let those now answer it, if they dare, who, ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Let the self-complacent answer it, who think they have no need of God for the performance of good works. Fight they not against such a truth, those men of corrupt mind, reprobate concerning the faith, whose reply is only full of impious talk, when they say: It is of God that we have our existence as men, but it is of ourselves that we are righteous? What is it you say, you who deceive yourselves, and, instead of establishing freewill, cast it headlong down from the heights of its self-elevation through the empty regions of presumption into the depths of an ocean grave? Why, your assertion that man of himself works righteousness, that is the height of your self-elation. But the Truth contradicts you, and declares, The branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine. Away with you now over your giddy precipices, and, without a spot whereon to take your stand, vapor away at your windy talk. These are the empty regions of your presumption. But look well at what is tracking your steps, and, if you have any sense remaining, let your hair stand on end. For whoever imagines that he is bearing fruit of himself is not in the vine, and he that is not in the vine is not in Christ, and he that is not in Christ is not a Christian. Such are the ocean depths into which you have plunged” (St. Augustine, The Gospel of John, Tractate 53).
I am sorry. The link for this one should read, “Tractate 81.” 😊

May the grace of the LORD be with you all!
 
Mikeledes,

Thank you for your posts on predestination, both on this thread and also on other threads in the past.

You are actually one of three notable posters on these forums who helped bring me into the Church. I thank you now, and I’ll thank you in heaven! 🙂

Praise to the King!

In Christ,
Pete
 
““But those who do not belong to this number of the predestinated, whom— whether that they have not yet any free choice of their will, or with a choice of will truly free, because freed by grace itself— the grace of God brings to His kingdom,— those, then, who do not belong to that most certain and blessed number, are most righteously judged according to their deservings. For either they lie under the sin which they have inherited by original generation, and depart hence with that inherited debt which is not put away by regeneration, or by their free will have added other sins besides; their will, I say, free, but not freed,— free from righteousness, but enslaved to sin, by which they are tossed about by various mischievous lusts, some more evil, some less, but all evil; and they must be adjudged to diverse punishments, according to that very diversity. Or they receive the grace of God, but they are only for a season, and do not persevere; they forsake and are forsaken. For by their free will, as they have not received the gift of perseverance, they are sent away by the righteous and hidden judgment of God” (St. Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace).
Ezekiel 18:19-20Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”

Hi Peter, 🙂

Will you please explain this discrepancy? :confused:

Pax,
SHW
 
“From these statements of the inspired word, and from similar passages which it would take too long to quote in full, it is, I think, sufficiently clear that God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills whithersoever He wills, whether to good deeds according to His mercy, or to evil after their own deserts; His own judgment being sometimes manifest, sometimes secret, but always righteous. This ought to be the fixed and immoveable conviction of your heart, that there is no unrighteousness with God. (St. Augustine, On Grace and Free Will, Ch 43 [XXI])
More confusion:

1 Corinthians 10:13 “No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.”

James 1:13 “Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

Pax,
SHW
 
Hi benedictus2 🙂

I agree with you about double predestination. However, I do think that the elect are also the predestined. I do not think that they are two different groups of people.
You are right, the elect are also the predestined. What I am saying is that the elect or those who have been predestined are not necessarily the sum total of those who will be saved.

I think God has predestined some people specifically for a purpose, eg the Blessed Mother, the Saints.

These are necessary in the overall economy of salvation because to use an analogy, if this is a battle against the forces of evil, then they are what you would call the generals and the lieutenant and we are more like foot soldiers.
 
Hi benedictus2 🙂

I agree with you about double predestination. However, I do think that the elect are also the predestined. I do not think that they are two different groups of people.
You are right, the elect are also the predestined. What I am saying is that the elect or those who have been predestined are not necessarily the sum total of those who will be saved.

I think God has predestined some people specifically for a purpose, eg the Blessed Mother, the Saints.

It is necessary to predestine these people because they will play an important part in the overall economy of salvation. To use an analogy, if this is a battle against the forces of evil, then they are what you would call the generals and the lieutenant and we are more like foot soldiers.
 
Hi benedictus2 🙂

I agree with you about double predestination. However, I do think that the elect are also the predestined. I do not think that they are two different groups of people.
You are right, the elect are also the predestined. What I am saying is that the elect or those who have been predestined are not necessarily the sum total of those who will be saved.

I think God has predestined some people specifically for a purpose, eg the Blessed Mother, the Saints.

It is necessary to predestine these people because they will play an important part in the overall economy of salvation. To use an analogy, if this is a battle against the forces of evil, then they are what you would call the generals and the lieutenant and we are more like foot soldiers.
 
Hi benedictus2 🙂

I agree with you about double predestination. However, I do think that the elect are also the predestined. I do not think that they are two different groups of people.
You are right, the elect are also the predestined. What I am saying is that the elect or those who have been predestined are not necessarily the sum total of those who will be saved.

I think God has predestined some people specifically for a purpose, eg the Blessed Mother, the Saints.

It is necessary to predestine these people because they will play an important part in the overall economy of salvation. To use an analogy, if this is a battle against the forces of evil, then they are what you would call the generals and the lieutenant and we are more like foot soldiers.
 
I’m late coming into this thread and havent read every post. Hopefully I’m not going over ground already plowed, if so, I apologize.

I tend to think of predestination as a valid and true theological construct that should have no actual impact on how a person lives his life.

First of all, the church teaches against double predestination, so everyone has the possiblity of being saved, leaving no one without hope.

Secondly, the church teaches that God is able to be completely soveriegn while at the same time, allowing man to make his own choices on salvation. The exact mechanism is unknown and open to debate between the Thomists and the Molinists among others, but in the end, there is agreement that God’s plan will be completed perfectly without disabling Man’s own free will.

Finally, no man knows whether he will be condemned or glorified until death and we know that we will be judged based on our actions. Sure, those actions will be according to God’s plan and sure, he knew what we would choose before we were even born, but in the end, it will still be based on the Choices we make.

So while predestination is a theological reality, from an individual’s perspective, that knowledge means nothing. We still are called to holiness. Those that are elect will choose to love man and love God, while those that aren’t will choose to turn away from God in Sin.
 
I’m late coming into this thread and havent read every post. Hopefully I’m not going over ground already plowed, if so, I apologize.

I tend to think of predestination as a valid and true theological construct that should have no actual impact on how a person lives his life.

First of all, the church teaches against double predestination, so everyone has the possiblity of being saved, leaving no one without hope.

Secondly, the church teaches that God is able to be completely soveriegn while at the same time, allowing man to make his own choices on salvation. The exact mechanism is unknown and open to debate between the Thomists and the Molinists among others, but in the end, there is agreement that God’s plan will be completed perfectly without disabling Man’s own free will.

Finally, no man knows whether he will be condemned or glorified until death and we know that we will be judged based on our actions. Sure, those actions will be according to God’s plan and sure, he knew what we would choose before we were even born, but in the end, it will still be based on the Choices we make.

So while predestination is a theological reality, from an individual’s perspective, that knowledge means nothing. We still are called to holiness. Those that are elect will choose to love man and love God, while those that aren’t will choose to turn away from God in Sin.
Exactly, predestination is the province of God, from His perspective not ours. Catholic theology makes much more sense as it states there are elect but we can lose salvation in our rejection of it through rejection of Christ and Protestants teach everything else.
 
More confusion:

1 Corinthians 10:13 “No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.”

James 1:13 “Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

Pax,
SHW
Hi SGW! I’m not sure what you mean by your questions? God does not cause anyone to sin. However, apart from God’s grace, man is unable to properly believe and love God. The ultimate source of our faith, love, and the good things we do that are pleasing to God and meritorious is God. Sin, however, is from us because God causes no one to sin. So all those quotes Pete cites are in reference to coming to faith, loving God, and doing those things pleasing to Him. 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
 
Hi SGW! I’m not sure what you mean by your questions? God does not cause anyone to sin. However, apart from God’s grace, man is unable to properly believe and love God. The ultimate source of our faith, love, and the good things we do that are pleasing to God and meritorious is God. Sin, however, is from us because God causes no one to sin. So all those quotes Pete cites are in reference to coming to faith, loving God, and doing those things pleasing to Him. 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
Hi Michael,

In my original posts, I highlighted the teachings of Augustine and contrasted them with the two Biblical verses. To me, they do not agree. Why would “God incline their wills to evil after their own deserts?”
“From these statements of the inspired word, and from similar passages which it would take too long to quote in full, it is, I think, sufficiently clear that God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills whithersoever He wills, whether to good deeds according to His mercy, or to evil after their own deserts; His own judgment being sometimes manifest, sometimes secret, but always righteous. This ought to be the fixed and immoveable conviction of your heart, that there is no unrighteousness with God. (St. Augustine, On Grace and Free Will, Ch 43 [XXI])
1 Corinthians 10:13 “No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.”

James 1:13 “Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.”

Pax,
SHW
 
Hi Michael,

In my original posts, I highlighted the teachings of Augustine and contrasted them with the two Biblical verses. To me, they do not agree. Why would “God incline their wills to evil after their own deserts?”

1 Corinthians 10:13 “No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.”

James 1:13 “Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.”

Pax,
SHW
kkk
 
Hi SHW in regards to "or to evil after their own deserts"if that’s what you wnat to do(evil) then i(God) wil not force you to obey Me,but I will let you do as you wish,and that is evil.But I am God and will always be here,if you open your eyes and seek me.I will be found.
 
Hi SHW in regards to "or to evil after their own deserts"if that’s what you wnat to do(evil) then i(God) wil not force you to obey Me,but I will let you do as you wish,and that is evil.But I am God and will always be here,if you open your eyes and seek me.I will be found.
Thanks, fbl19!

SHW
 
Hi Michael,

In my original posts, I highlighted the teachings of Augustine and contrasted them with the two Biblical verses. To me, they do not agree. Why would “God incline their wills to evil after their own deserts?”

1 Corinthians 10:13 “No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.”

James 1:13 “Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.”

Pax,
SHW
Hi SHW!

FB19 gave an excellent response. God does not actively incline anyone’s will to evil. He allows you to resist His grace.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Why is predestination wrong?
Predestination occurs AFTER you place faith, not BEFORE. It is a biblical word and used in many cases - people just get it confused (like the calvinists).
“Ephesians 1:5 Who hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose of his will: (DRB)”
See, when we are ADOPTED as sons of God, we become PREDESTINATED (AFTERWARDS) not before. It wouldn’t make sense to be predestinated when you wouldn’t ever place faith in your lifetime.

That’s my take on it anyways.
 
Predestination occurs AFTER you place faith, not BEFORE. It is a biblical word and used in many cases - people just get it confused (like the calvinists).

See, when we are ADOPTED as sons of God, we become PREDESTINATED (AFTERWARDS) not before. It wouldn’t make sense to be predestinated when you wouldn’t ever place faith in your lifetime.

That’s my take on it anyways.
No, predestination occurs by definition at the beginning of time. God knows whether we will turn toward or away from him because he is omniscient. However, from a strictly human perspective, our predestination is largely irrelevant to how we live our lives.

The Catholic Church teaches that God has a plan for every person and that that plan will be fulfilled. The church also teaches that man has free will and that he can choose his fate - if he chooses to be with God in heaven, he will do good works for the love of God and man. If he chooses to shun God through sin, then he has also made a choice. The Catholic Church teaches that man’s will and God’s plan will always coincide, although the mechanism for making this happen is debated between the Thomists (God made us in such a way that we will do what he expects) and the Molinists (God can predict perfectly what we will do and built his plan accordingly). In the end, the mechanism isn’t really important because the end result is the same: We have the free will to chose our eternal destination and that will will correspond to God’s plan for us. So do your best to live for God’s glory and you will be saved. And if you falter and you are Catholic, you can get back in God’s graces through the sacrament of reconciliation.
 
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