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Gorgias
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Wanna take a guess that those ten were spouses who were abandoned by their adulterous spouse?
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AlNg
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No. You don’t have to guess. The reasons are explicitly stated can be checked in the Catholic books of yearly statistics. What I recall seeing mentioned were duress, fraud and impotence and i am not sure about non-consummation.
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Brian_K
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It might simplify things by picturing religion not so much as a jigsaw puzzle but as a many-colored coat. You don’t have to figure out how and why every single piece works with every other one in order to receive the benefits of faith. Start by putting on the coat of faith. Which fiber makes it beautiful or keeps you warm enough? I don’t know. But it is and does. And if it helps you grow closer to God by examining some particular thing more closely, be grateful that He is speaking to you through your interest in that thing and dive in.
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TheLittleLady
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“Baptist” is not a generic term, so, I will look at the biggest group, the Southern Baptists.
There are many studies out there, it is safe to say there are far more than 50,000 Southern Baptists who divorce each year. One divorce in each SB congregation per year would get you close to 50K
http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/1205/on-the-scandal-of-southern-baptist-divorce
http://www.sullivan-county.com/bush/divorce.htm
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EndTimes
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Why is religion so complicated?
Believe in Jesus - Get to know Him… Read His Gospel
Realize … you’re really speaking for yourself … and perhaps some others.
Believe in Jesus - Get to know Him… Read His Gospel
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AlNg
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i am speaking of relative growth in the number of civil divorces, not the actual numerical values.
I.e., when you go from 10 per year to 50,000 per year that is an increase of 500000 percent. The Roman Church has had an increase in marriage annulments of 500000 percent when you go from 1929 to some of the recent years. The Protestant churches and the American society in general has not experienced an increase in civil divorces anything like that. Please note that the tribunal does not consider the marriage annulment request until a civil divorce has been granted.
Look at it this way:
In 1920, the US divorce rate was 1.7 divorces per 1000 population.
in 1940 the US divorce rate was roughly 2 divorces per 1000 population.
The present US divorce rate is roughly 3.2 per 1000 population.
So the US divorce rate has roughly doubled from 1920 to the present day.
Compare that with what has happened to the number of Roman Catholic annulments.
10 marriage annulments in the USA in 1929
50,000 marriage annulments in recent years in the USA.
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Gorgias
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Mark Twain popularized an aphorism: “There are three types of lies: lies, d*** lies, and statistics.”
Let’s look at whether your statistics tell a lie or not…
In your stats about divorces in America, you use per capita numbers. In other words, there’s an implied denominator. And, of course, you never address the rate of change of that denominator, and merely claim that the “rate of change” has “doubled.”
Then again, your annulment statistics aren’t presented in terms of “rates”, but in terms of raw numbers. So, any increase in the denominator (which you hide in your divorce stats) is present in your annulment statistics.
Nice try at obfuscating the facts. I think I’d rate your “statistics” as Twain’s second characterization.
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QContinuum
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Why wouldn’t religion be complicated? Humans are complicated.
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AlNg
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The point concerning the huge increase in Catholic annulments over the period from 1929 to the present stands.
The following are rough figures to illustrate the point.
US Population 1930 123 million
US Population today 328 million
Catholic population 1930 roughly 28 million
Catholic population today roughly 75 million, although some have it as high as 81 million.
1929: 9 annulments per 28 million is a rate of 3.2 x 10^ -4 per 1000.
Today 50000 annulments per 75 million is a rate of 6.7 x 10^-1 per 1000. (Still at lot lower than the US divorce rate).
So the annulment rate has increased by about 2000 (roughly).
Notice that the US divorce rate has doubled or increased by 2 over the same period (roughly)
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TheLittleLady
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Gorgias
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I’m not saying that there isn’t an increase. I am saying that your characterization of it is unfair and overwrought.
In 1930, the U.S. Census Bureau reported that there was one divorce for every 6.1 marriages.
In 1937, the NY Times reported that the Kenedy Directory’s count was 20.9 million. Are you saying that it decreased by 28% over the course of seven years in the 1930’s?
In 1949, “the Apostolic Tribunal of the Roman Rota receives 137 annulment requests from all over the world; 51 are granted and 86 are denied.” See this article.
CARA reports that the annual number of annulments initiated has declined steadily, from a high of 72K in 1990, to 21K in 2018. If only ~20K are being applied for each year, how can 50K be being granted annually? I think your numbers are off by an order of magnitude or two…
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AlNg
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They charge $139 which is more than a cup of coffee.
https://www.getdivorcepapers.com/Fi...5-L_Tb7o7RIJ1q8rcIrgzHRRAM9qsAsxoCcDQQAvD_BwE
“Our mission is to make the whole process for you as simple as possible. You will receive all the forms you need to file for annulment thanks to our services. …We guarantee that your forms will be accepted by the courts.”
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Gorgias
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Umm… you realize that they’re talking something completely different, right? They’re advertising services leading to civil annulment, not an ecclesiastical annulment in the Catholic Church!Gorgias:
They charge $139 which is more than a cup of coffee.
[link removed]
“Our mission is to make the whole process for you as simple as possible. You will receive all the forms you need to file for annulment thanks to our services. …We guarantee that your forms will be accepted by the courts.”
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AlNg
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For past annulment statistics
National Catholic almanac. Felician A. Foy, St. Anthony’s Guild, Franciscans. Province of the Most Holy Name. 1940.
Your link says that there has been an astronomical increase in the number of annulments granted in the US since 1968:
“This is an astronomical increase, for in 1968 only 338 annulments were granted in the United States.”
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AlNg
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Here’s a link to a service specializing in Catholic annulments:
https://www.churchannulment.com/ser...WnAZJbnPlDsyEefFvJeo2XLqyjQnFuDRoCT8wQAvD_BwE
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TheLittleLady
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As this book is not available except in libraries, what is the source used by the Franciscans to arrive at their number?
Also, where do you get your modern numbers?
Also, where do you get your modern numbers?
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Canon Lawyers charging $185 per hour for a service that is available at little or no cost through the Tribunals with jurisdiction?
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Gorgias
Guest
OK. So… your point is…?
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AlNg
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There are various sources. For example, there is the Catholic almanac of Our Sunday Visitor. And the Official Catholic Directory.
In any case, the link you have provided on annulments says that the increase in Catholic annulments from 1968 has been astronomical. It is true that the US divorce rate has increased during this period, but it has gone from 2.9 per 1000 in 1968 to as high as 5.3 per 1000 in 1981 but back down to about 3.4 in recent years. So what you have is at most a doubling of the divorce rate, but OTOH, an astronomical increase in the number of Catholic marriage annulments.
The following article says there were 59000 US annulments in 1992.
Also See The Code of Canon Law: A Text and Commentary , (Paulist: New York, 1985), at p. 1010, and 1994 Catholic Almanac , at p. 236, reporting for the year 1991.
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AlNg
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Services specializing in help to get through the Catholic annulment process cost more than a cup of coffee.
The hourly rate is $185 per hour. …At the time of engagement the retainer for the first two hours of service [$370] is necessary. This is much higher than the cost for a cup of freshly brewed coffee at Starbucks which goes for about $2.00 although there are some specialty coffees for as much as $5.00 which is still much lower than the retainer cost of $370.
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