Why is socialism bad by Church teaching?

[Monk21]

Thanks for making my point-in Canada free speech is considered spreading hate. Irest my case.

Well I don’t know where you are getting your information, but you might tell me what you are talking abt as to these so called kangaroo courts???

Also, Canada is not a socialist country. Like the USA we have some socialist programs the most important to us is our socialised medicine.

We love it, the USA is afraid of it…WHY??? I would really like to know. I would like to know why my church condemns some aspects of socialism when most countries have bits and pieces of it. I have read the arguments here, but they don’t take in the bits and pieces of what we in Canada believe to be good for all of our people.

We all pay taxes and a separate tax for health care. We are not overly taxed for what we get. Contrary to what we hear abt us in the states we pick our own doctor and our wait times are according to the seriousness of our illness. My brother .-in-law felt bad on the first hole of the golf course, drove himself to the hospital and was sent right away to a heart hospital 10 miles away and had 7 bypasses done that day. No charge. How much would that cost a working man in the states?
My wife and I raised seven children and we owned our house and if anyone got sick it did not cost us any more to be treated. Somebody tell me why this is bad.

My sister in the states had to have her husband work until he was 70 to have health insurance for her. She was 5 years younger than he was, and it would have cost them $700.00 a month to have health insurance for her if he retired at 65. That kind of nonsense does not happen up here in Canada.

 

[Black_Rose]

If you are comfortable trading freedom for security have at it. I’m not and forunately I live in a country where we can say what we think, get medical care where we want and never have to worry about being drug into kangaroo coutrs over “hate speech”

There are some sets of circumstances where trading freedom for security would be a very wise trade off, but this depends on the many other factors? How much “freedom” would one give up for “security” and how much “security” one would get? Certainly, there are some cases where the ratio of “security” gained and “freedom” lost would be high enough that it would be an irresistible trade-off, but, of course, there are difficulties quantifying “security” and “freedom” so it would be hard to determine an appropriate threshold. For example, civil liberties advocates, which I find myself very sympathetic, argue that the provisions in the controversial PATRIOT Act abolish personal freedom and individual rights. such as privacy and due process, for national security from terrorism. This is a reasonable argue since the chances of a person dying from a terrorist act is very low, thus it offers little reward for the amount of “freedom” given up.

Another consideration of the trade off would be the marginal utility of freedom and security, since it is reasonable to assume that both suffer from diminishing returns where more freedom and security do not yield any substantial benefit when there is already a high degree of freedom and security.

But tell me whether social democratic countries, notwithstanding where they are really “socialist” or not under a given definition, have a desirable balance of freedom and security? Do people in social democracies when compared to the United States of America enjoy more freedom and security as manifested by Franklin Roosevelt’s Four Freedom’s: Freedom from want, fear, religion, and speech? Two of FDR’s freedom’s, from fear and want, are incompatible with the libertarian bourgeois idealization of economic freedom and liberty, but they are indubitable authentic, universal human needs, not an articulation of bourgeois class interests.

 

[Limbo]

As I pointed out earlier, socialism is not “bad by church teaching.” This is a misunderstanding. Many Catholics, including many priests and nuns, believe many types of socialism are positive and promote the message of Jesus, as well as promoting that incredibly fuzzy word we call “freedom,” (a concept that is important but that has been much abused and obfuscated in the last 50 years, especially by some Americans). A variety of differing motives and levels of intelligence and honesty have been part of this process of sometimes inadvertent and sometimes deliberate obfuscation.

Popes are as fallible as the rest of us when speaking of matters that are not part of Catholic religious doctrine. Pronouncements about economics and politics are outside of the “infallibility” sphere. If you have doubts about this, best to do some research. Indeed, even in matters of religious doctrine, “infallibility” has not always been accepted as doctrine by the Catholic church, although it is now. Hence, if I am correct about the foregoing, Catholics may disagree as much as those of other faiths regarding the merits or demerits of capitalism, socialism, etc.

There is nothing inherent in Catholicism that makes all forms of socialism incompatible and unacceptable. Nothing in the scriptures is against it although, interestingly, the condemnation of usury, on which all capitalism is based, is very strong indeed (but disregarded).

Finally, as pointed out by others, capitalism and socialism are economic systems. They are not political systems. It is not impossible to have capitalism with little freedom, and socialism with a lot of freedom.

Aspects of Calvinism and social Darwinism tell us indirectly that God loves and favors the rich (because they are hard-working, thrifty, etc etc). THAT is definitely NOT Catholic!

 

[ERose]

As I pointed out earlier, socialism is not “bad by church teaching.” This is a misunderstanding. Many Catholics, including many priests and nuns, believe many types of socialism are positive and promote the message of Jesus, as well as promoting that incredibly fuzzy word we call “freedom,” (a concept that is important but that has been much abused and obfuscated in the last 50 years, especially by some Americans). A variety of differing motives and levels of intelligence and honesty have been part of this process of sometimes inadvertent and sometimes deliberate obfuscation.

10th Commandment: You shall not covet your neighbour’s house, you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is your neighbour’s.

Regretfully for you the Church disagrees with your assertion, due to the teachings of the 10th commandment to Not covet your neighbour’s property. The church does not condone the taking the wealth from one and giving it to another. It believes in the right to own property and classifies this as a natural law. When a state starts taking from one and giving it to someone else who has not worked or payed for it is a social evil and should be condemned everywhere it is found.

 

[ERose]

You have been watching too much of Fox news. I think Glenn Beck and El-Cida and the Taliban are America’s # 1 problems.
When you read any nonsense of Canadians going south for medical treatment check your sources. Sure some do, mainly because they have lots of money and they want it now. The blog you pointed out is so full of nonsense abt our system it must have been put together by a Republican. Wait times here are not bad, if your condition is serious it is treated right away. Six month waits for anything is nonsense, oh I think maybe wort removal might be.
Yes, the premier of NFLD did go to Florida for some heart treatment, it could have been done here…now wait and see if he is re-elected.

Monk,

You got to keep so much hate out of your posts. I personnally do not have any problems with Canada and I would classify many Canadians as friends.

Concerning the healthcare up there I think that it is a mixed bag like anything else. I have talked to many Canadians about your socialized healthcare and got mixed results from the comments. Most of the Canadians I talked to (granted this is in the Toronto area) do not like the system and expressed to me to pray that healthcare never gets socialized in the US. In fact I know more than one person that frequently goes over the border for healthcare. One women said if it wasn’t for the US healthcare system, her sister would have died a few years back. I am not saying that everyone up there hates the system but I am sure that there is a large percentage that does not like it.

 

[ERose]

It is also sad that the riches country in the world does not have a health care system as good as Cuba. **
We in Canada have a much more stable economy than the USA, less crime, and you get most of your oil from us. Yet, there are Americans that can only come up with negative things to say abt us.
I think that Americans are the most uninformed people on earth. I do not say that in a nasty way, it is just the truth, and it is sad. I love the people, so it must be the politics**.

What proof do you have of the first comment above? If I had to guess it is none. You talk about being uninformed, maybe it is you that is uninformed.

 

[Limbo]

1. The “church” does not disagree with my point of view. Perhaps some members and officials do, but the “church” has no religious doctrine that opposes socialism. Some popes might, and some might not. But since this is a political and economic issue, not a doctrinal one, their thinking is no better or worse than anyone else’s.
2. In socialism the means of production are “owned” in common, at least in those industries that have been socialized. Hence, there is no taking of the property of another, and no “COVETING” of another’s property. The property in question is OWNED IN COMMON, so there is no violation of the 10th Commandment.
3. Capitalists and speculators often live off of and get rich from the interest and speculation on the property “owned” by others. Many of them do not “work.” This USURY is both the coveting and taking of the property of others, and of course also of the excess value of the labor of the worker who produced the property, or the person who put his/her money in the bank, that same bank that subsequently lends it out at interest (usury) to others.
4. Taxation takes property from some and re-distributes it, for good or for ill, fairly or unfairly. This in fact may well be ethically wrong (via your reasoning), but are you willing to take a stand against all taxation? That would have to be the case if you are going to be consistent with your own line of reasoning. (The government both “covets” and takes your property.) I’m not saying that such a point of view (against taxation) would be a “bad” point of view, only that it really must follow from what you appear to think.

Clearly, nothing in the 10th commandments is violated by socialism, unless we “COVET” what is “TRULY” (is it rightfully theirs??) the “PROPERTY” of “OTHERS.”

 

[Pitcharan]

1. The “church” does not disagree with my point of view. Perhaps some members and officials do, but the “church” has no religious doctrine that opposes socialism. Some popes might, and some might not. But since this is a political and economic issue, not a doctrinal one, their thinking is no better or worse than anyone else’s.
2. In socialism the means of production are “owned” in common, at least in those industries that have been socialized. Hence, there is no taking of the property of another, and no “COVETING” of another’s property. The property in question is OWNED IN COMMON, so there is no violation of the 10th Commandment.
3. Capitalists and speculators often live off of and get rich from the interest and speculation on the property “owned” by others. Many of them do not “work.” This USURY is both the coveting and taking of the property of others, and of course also of the excess value of the labor of the worker who produced the property, or the person who put his/her money in the bank, that same bank that subsequently lends it out at interest (usury) to others.
4. Taxation takes property from some and re-distributes it, for good or for ill, fairly or unfairly. This in fact may well be ethically wrong (via your reasoning), but are you willing to take a stand against all taxation? That would have to be the case if you are going to be consistent with your own line of reasoning. (The government both “covets” and takes your property.) I’m not saying that such a point of view (against taxation) would be a “bad” point of view, only that it really must follow from what you appear to think.

Clearly, nothing in the 10th commandments is violated by socialism, unless we “COVET” what is “TRULY” (is it rightfully theirs??) the “PROPERTY” of “OTHERS.”

Any good system without God’s partnership is bound to turn bad. Even the Good Samaritan commended by our Lord, would have turned bad if he were to think that he was the author of his own goodness. After taking off with such lofty ideals and winning the hearts of millions, what did the socialists end up doing in the former USSR. I’ve seen excellent communist governments in India gradually degenerate into Satanic regimes that even surpassed extreme right-wing capitalists in their own game by grabbing fertile land from poor farmers and selling it for a song to private industrialists. On the other hand, we are all aware of many a capitalist nation in Europe functioning as welfare states and practising socialist values without much noise. We should derive all our good ideas from God and always keep Him at the center; otherwise we are bound to perish even faster than many well known bad systems. It is my hunch that irrespective of his religious affiliation, Obama is a God centered leader; even his election is a sparkling display of God’s will prevailing against all odds. You americans know best what those odds were.

 

[Monk21]

Monk,

You got to keep so much hate out of your posts. I personnally do not have any problems with Canada and I would classify many Canadians as friends.

Concerning the healthcare up there I think that it is a mixed bag like anything else. I have talked to many Canadians about your socialized healthcare and got mixed results from the comments. Most of the Canadians I talked to (granted this is in the Toronto area) do not like the system and expressed to me to pray that healthcare never gets socialized in the US. In fact I know more than one person that frequently goes over the border for healthcare. One women said if it wasn’t for the US healthcare system, her sister would have died a few years back. I am not saying that everyone up there hates the system but I am sure that there is a large percentage that does not like it.

First of all I do not hate as you say, anyone, I may have a strong way of expressing myself when it comes to seeing people fight for something that is either selfish or a no brainer.
Secondly, I am 70 years of age and my friends are all within 10 years either side of me. We require more medical attention in general than those who are still say in the work force.
All I hear is good things from these people. I also have 6 children alive, married, and 14 grand children. Medical problems with all of them have been resolved well and quickly.
I have a brother who is well off and he would love to see private medicine up here. His reason is, if he can afford to get things done buy jumping the cue because he can pay for it he should be allowed to do it. Most people who you hear in the media complaining abt the system are well off and want to be able to use their money to get what they say is better service.
We had one son who was still single at 27 die from testecular cancer. He was very well treated both in hospital and with the home care that he wanted.
I live abt 60 miles west of Toronto and have family there, so I am in the area of your friends.
Tell me are they well off?

 

[Monk21]

What proof do you have of the first comment above? If I had to guess it is none. You talk about being uninformed, maybe it is you that is uninformed.

This is from Mirror, Mirror, ;
"Overview

Despite having the most costly health system in the world, the United States consistently underperforms on most dimensions of performance, relative to other countries. This report—an update to two earlier editions—includes data from surveys of patients, as well as information from primary care physicians about their medical practices and views of their countries’ health systems. Compared with five other nations—Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand, the United Kingdom—the U.S. health care system ranks last or next-to-last on five dimensions of a high performance health system: quality, access, efficiency, equity, and healthy lives. The U.S. is the only country in the study without universal health insurance coverage, partly accounting for its poor performance on access, equity, and health outcomes. The inclusion of physician survey data also shows the U.S. lagging in adoption of information technology and use of nurses to improve care coordination for the chronically ill."

Also I believe you rank 32th in the world and Cuba is away up near the top. Just go to Google and type in “Compare American heath care with other countries”

 

[Monk21]

What proof do you have of the first comment above? If I had to guess it is none. You talk about being uninformed, maybe it is you that is uninformed.

I am sorry, the figures I gave were of another aspect of the two countries. The USA is ranked 37th in overall health care and Cuba is 39th. …Still pretty good for a poor country with embargoes from the bully.

 

[Pitcharan]

10th Commandment: You shall not covet your neighbour’s house, you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is your neighbour’s.

Regretfully for you the Church disagrees with your assertion, due to the teachings of the 10th commandment to Not covet your neighbour’s property. The church does not condone the taking the wealth from one and giving it to another. It believes in the right to own property and classifies this as a natural law. When a state starts taking from one and giving it to someone else who has not worked or payed for it is a social evil and should be condemned everywhere it is found.

The tenth commandment is giving instructions for harmonious living, to be followed by individuals in relation to one another. It is not a rule meant for the state or government. State has the authority to enact and implement laws. The authority is conferred by the people whose mandate is actually from God. The Bible points this out clearly more than once. Go and search and if you don’t find it tell me and I’ll show you.
But yes, even if socialism embraces all or most of the ten commandments, it is still very, very, very bad because …forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6863276#poststop

 

[Pitcharan]

You must be a Fox news reporter.
I am freer than you.
I choose my doctor.
I get prompt medical attention.
We also welcome the thousands of seniors who regularly come by the bus load to buy their medications because we are not greedy up here and they can’t afford the drugs in Free America.
I right letters to the editor regularly. If you feel it is good to spread hate just because you can , go ahead.
Now please tell me abt these kangeroos…I’m not in Austrailia.
We saved your butts on 9/11, we took in thousands of your people into our homes and fed them, gave them a place to sleep for days. We asked nothing in return. Ask the people who could not fly into your country. They come back every year to thank us.
I find that hard nosed Americans will fight for stupid **** and say we got freedom!
You don’t know what freedom is. Come on up here and walk the streets at night with me. Go in a dark park on your way home with no fear.
Keep a gun in your closet and your bedroom…you are a frightened man.

Very well said Monk. I too love Cuba and hated Bush’s America. But still, socialism is bad even if it embraces all or most of the ten commandments because:

Any good system without God’s partnership is bound to turn bad. Even the Good Samaritan commended by our Lord, would have turned bad if he were to think that he was the author of his own goodness. After taking off with such lofty ideals and winning the hearts of millions, what did the socialists end up doing in the former USSR. I’ve seen excellent communist governments in India gradually degenerate into Satanic regimes that even surpassed extreme right-wing capitalists in their own game by grabbing fertile land from poor farmers and selling it for a song to private industrialists. On the other hand, we are all aware of many a capitalist nation in Europe functioning as welfare states and practising socialist values without much noise. We should derive all our good ideas from God and always keep Him at the center; otherwise we are bound to perish even faster than many well known bad systems. It is my hunch that irrespective of his religious affiliation, Obama is a God centered leader; even his election is a sparkling display of God’s will prevailing against all odds. You americans know best what those odds were.

***Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
***(John 15:4-6)

 

[ERose]

1. The “church” does not disagree with my point of view. Perhaps some members and officials do, but the “church” has no religious doctrine that opposes socialism. Some popes might, and some might not. But since this is a political and economic issue, not a doctrinal one, their thinking is no better or worse than anyone else’s.

Again you are wrong on this one. The Church and the Popes has spoken out against socialism and communism ever since it was developed in Germany. If you want more information on the history and the response of the Church go to:

newadvent.org/cathen/14062a.htm

Just because you have a few priests, nuns and even bishops teaching that socialism is ok doesn’t make it ok.

1. In socialism the means of production are “owned” in common, at least in those industries that have been socialized. Hence, there is no taking of the property of another, and no “COVETING” of another’s property. The property in question is OWNED IN COMMON, so there is no violation of the 10th Commandment.

No the true answer is that the means of production, property or whatever is owned by the state. Owned in common is what they use to make it sound peachy. But in every true socialistic country the reality is that the state is the owner.

1. Capitalists and speculators often live off of and get rich from the interest and speculation on the property “owned” by others. Many of them do not “work.” This USURY is both the coveting and taking of the property of others, and of course also of the excess value of the labor of the worker who produced the property, or the person who put his/her money in the bank, that same bank that subsequently lends it out at interest (usury) to others.

You really need to get out more. People in a capitalistic economy make money by supplying a service or product that the end user wants to buy. If the product or service is good enough the company makes alot of money and if it isn’t they go out of business eventually. They hire people at a agreed upon salary and benefits and those people work for that company and leave that company at any time if they do not feel like they are being compensated properly. We do not own people. Slavery no longer exists in the USA.

I have never been employed by a poor person. Rich people are the only people in this country or any other country that has the means of hiring people and paying them.

Also you need to get over the idea that there are no “haves” and “have nots” in a socialistic society because there are. Instead of the millionaires being private citizens it is the government officials that have all of the money and power.

1. Taxation takes property from some and re-distributes it, for good or for ill, fairly or unfairly. This in fact may well be ethically wrong (via your reasoning), but are you willing to take a stand against all taxation? That would have to be the case if you are going to be consistent with your own line of reasoning. (The government both “covets” and takes your property.) I’m not saying that such a point of view (against taxation) would be a “bad” point of view, only that it really must follow from what you appear to think.

My point of view is that government over steps its bounds when it tries to controls every aspect of society. I have no problem paying my fair share of taxes for the maintaining the defense of this country, police, fire, maintaining the roads, etc. But when they start owning banks, businesses, healthcare, etc they over step their bounds. Because every time they take over something they are taking away your and my rights. So yes I call that stealing.

Clearly, nothing in the 10th commandments is violated by socialism, unless we “COVET” what is “TRULY” (is it rightfully theirs??) the “PROPERTY” of “OTHERS.”

It is not truly or rightfully theirs. My property and wealth what I have of it is mine and if you want to take it and give to someone who did not earn it that is coveting.

 

[ERose]

This is from Mirror, Mirror, ;
"Overview

Despite having the most costly health system in the world, the United States consistently underperforms on most dimensions of performance, relative to other countries. This report—an update to two earlier editions—includes data from surveys of patients, as well as information from primary care physicians about their medical practices and views of their countries’ health systems. Compared with five other nations—Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand, the United Kingdom—the U.S. health care system ranks last or next-to-last on five dimensions of a high performance health system: quality, access, efficiency, equity, and healthy lives. The U.S. is the only country in the study without universal health insurance coverage, partly accounting for its poor performance on access, equity, and health outcomes. The inclusion of physician survey data also shows the U.S. lagging in adoption of information technology and use of nurses to improve care coordination for the chronically ill."

Also I believe you rank 32th in the world and Cuba is away up near the top. Just go to Google and type in “Compare American heath care with other countries”

Here is the problem with using these people as an example is that they are a left wing group and their asserts are always going to lean to what they want to believe. In other words I wouldn’t believe anything that this site says.

Here is what I know Monk. If I need to go to the doctor I call and make an appointment that meets my schedule and I go. From walking in the front door to talking to a doctor usually takes about 30 minutes, sometimes an hour if he is real busy. If I need any lab or x-rays done, he send me down to the lab and it normally takes less than 30 minutes for them to be through with me. I take the results back up to his office and it usually takes about 15 to 30 minutes for the doctor to evaluate what is wrong with me and prescribe me medicine if necessary. If I need medicine he will right in front of me fax it to the pharmacy of my choice. So normally it takes me about 1.5 hours to get in and out with my doctor. I know not every one in this country has the exact same experience as I do because not every doctor or clinic or hospital is the same.

Concerning the people I know in Canada. They are part of the workforce there and would probably be classified as middle or lower-middle class.

 

[ERose]

The tenth commandment is giving instructions for harmonious living, to be followed by individuals in relation to one another. It is not a rule meant for the state or government. State has the authority to enact and implement laws. The authority is conferred by the people whose mandate is actually from God. The Bible points this out clearly more than once. Go and search and if you don’t find it tell me and I’ll show you.
But yes, even if socialism embraces all or most of the ten commandments, it is still very, very, very bad because …forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6863276#poststop

No the 10th commandment and all of the commandments for that matter are dictates not just to the individual but also the the community as well. Yes authority is given to the government to govern and do what is necessary to govern but it is not given the authority by God to take away from it’s people when it is not absolutely necessary and without proper compensation. Socialist preach the gospel of rich versus poor. Their whole serman is based upon making the poor covet what the rich have, ala violating the 10th commandment.

 

[Monk21]

Here is the problem with using these people as an example is that they are a left wing group and their asserts are always going to lean to what they want to believe. In other words I wouldn’t believe anything that this site says.

Concerning the people I know in Canada. They are part of the workforce there and would probably be classified as middle or lower-middle class.

Ok, open up your mind and look at what all the think tanks and the “World Health Org.” say abt your poor health system. It is so easy to google it.
Why are 50% of your bank rupt people there because of health costs?
Why do 48 million of your people not have health insurance?
Why do your seniors come up to Canada by the bus load to get their meds?
Why do people die, because they can’t afford to go to a doctor?
Why do we in Canada live 3 years longer, on average, then people in the states?
Why are you afraid of universal health care??? My sister in the states says “they just don’t get it”!!!

I made an appointment with my Dr. on a Fri. got to see him on Monday. Sent for xrays same day. Booked an ultra sound for the following Fri. (my choice because of commitments). Tomorrow is Fri. any problems I’ll probably hear on Monday.
Cost…= $0.00

 

[Pitcharan]

No the 10th commandment and all of the commandments for that matter are dictates not just to the individual but also the the community as well. Yes authority is given to the government to govern and do what is necessary to govern but it is not given the authority by God to take away from it’s people when it is not absolutely necessary and without proper compensation. Socialist preach the gospel of rich versus poor. Their whole serman is based upon making the poor covet what the rich have, ala violating the 10th commandment.

If what you say about Socialists is true, then are actually helping the rich by making it easier for them to enter God’s kingdom, as otherwise they would have to struggle like a camel having to pass thro the eye of a needle

 

[estesbob]

If what you say about Socialists is true, then are actually helping the rich by making it easier for them to enter God’s kingdom, as otherwise they would have to struggle like a camel having to pass thro the eye of a needle

So what is the “eye of the needle” level over which one is damned to eternal hellfire? One would think if ones salvation was dependent on their level of income that this number would be readily available.

 

[Monk21]

Here is the problem with using these people as an example is that they are a left wing group and their asserts are always going to lean to what they want to believe. In other words I wouldn’t believe anything that this site says.

**
Here you see the big problem in the states:
Left wing is always wrong…right wing is always right…no thought necesary.
Just follow those rules.
The mind can shut down and everything is all OK.!!!

[/BI saw a doctor on TV the other night and he had research from a world body on the dangers of the pill to women. He said that the info he gave to the media including the NY Times was not printed. Not because of the research and the info it contained, but because he was a Catholic and a Pro-lifer.
So the truth in the USA media depends on your beliefs, not the info provided. ]**