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ERose
Guest
I guess we do don’t we. I tell you what if you want to you can pay more taxes than is required. So next time your taxes come around why don’t you thrown in another 30-40% of your income to help out with Social Security and Medicaid and Medicare to help keep them from going bankrupt which all three are on the path of becoming if they are not changed.
Concerning your list of socialized institutions in this country:
A. Police, Firefighters, Roads & Highways are NECESSARY government functions and do not constitute socialism. You need to study what socialism means before you make a comment on it. That is what sane people do.
B. Schools and Hospitals that are government ran are not anything to brag about. The private school system in this country has be far outperforming the public systems for years. There really is no comparison concerning dropout rates, graduation rates, and test scores. So I wouldn’t brag about that. Concerning the hospitals, I cannot comment on the care for I never have used a government own hospital, but from what I understand is that most of them are normally over budget.
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jewells17
Guest
I sure got your point and is a very spiritual one. Was surprised your point was missed too because that is what it’s all about…giving from the spirit of love rather than the spirit of force…which creates resentment. And it cuts the Holy Spirit out of the picture…totally. Our churches should be giving the money we give them on Sundays to the poorest of the poor and all those in need…rather than government taking it…that’s all.
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Monk21
Guest
Come on now EROSE, your really scraping bottom here. You are afraid because you haven’t tried it and you guys just come up with anything that suits your old lame ideas. Fight , fight, fight against anything we haven’t tried. Your services are socialistic, police, fire, schools, yet even with these you are in denial. Yes they are what socialism is all abt.
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Monk21
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Edward_H
Guest
Black_Rose,
Well I am afraid the data from the 60-90s are in, that the welfare state loses on both the temporal level (efficiencies, waste, fraud, delays, abuse, entitlement mindset, cost overruns, unsustainable growth curves, non-self-funding, dis-incenting, resentment), and the supernatural level (which they never address).
Maybe Mother Teresa’s operation solved only a small fraction of the problem in Calcutta, but her objectives included supernatural ends…the saving of souls, the spread of Love. Her example…the Holy Spirit working through her…saved millions and millions of souls.
She wins, the nanny state loses.
Well I am afraid the data from the 60-90s are in, that the welfare state loses on both the temporal level (efficiencies, waste, fraud, delays, abuse, entitlement mindset, cost overruns, unsustainable growth curves, non-self-funding, dis-incenting, resentment), and the supernatural level (which they never address).
Maybe Mother Teresa’s operation solved only a small fraction of the problem in Calcutta, but her objectives included supernatural ends…the saving of souls, the spread of Love. Her example…the Holy Spirit working through her…saved millions and millions of souls.
She wins, the nanny state loses.
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Abu
Guest
The socialism that is condemned by Pius XI in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931 has the following false theories:
1)The Welfare State as the supreme objective.
2)Everything belongs to the State, thus excluding the real rights to private property.
3)The elimination of free enterprise in favour of state-controlled production and distribution.
4)Denounced the principle of subsidiarity.
Michael Novak in Capitalism Rightly Understood: The View Of Christian Humanism writes of John Paul II’s Centesimus Annus, 1991:
In a word, traditionalist Third World systems are nearly as repressive as formerly communist systems in suffocating economic creativity. Similarly, within advanced societies, neglect of important human factors in the design of “the welfare state” has dehumanizing effects upon welfare “clients.” In any society, some important fraction of the citizenry is bound to be without income, because of age (too old or too young), disability, illness, or ill fortune. Some will be permanently, some only temporarily, so. A good society will provide care for such persons.
Preferably, as the Pope notes, this should be done according to the principle of subsidiarity, with an emphasis on local and “neighborly” assistance, through family, neighbors, churches, unions, fraternal societies, or other associations.37
Notes:
37 See for instance Centesimus Annus, #49 and especially 13: “Apart from the family, other intermediate communities exercise primary functions and give life to specific networks of solidarity. These develop as real communities of persons and strengthen the social fabric, preventing society from becoming an anonymous and impersonal mass, as unfortunately often happens today. It is in interrelationships on many levels that a person lives, and that society becomes more ‘personalized’.” (#49)
Pope Benedict XVI in *Caritas in Veritate *stipulates that true world political authority not only “would need to be regulated by law, [but also] to observe consistently the principles of subsidiarity” (CIV 67). Subsidiarity “is the most effective antidote against any form of all-encompassing welfare state” (57).
As Fr John Corapi explains:
“The common error is to think that socialism helps the poor and disenfranchised. As Pope Leo XIII pointed out as long ago as 1891 in his Encyclical Rerum Novarum, socialism does not help the poor. Rather, it reduces everyone to the same lowest common denominator of poverty and misery, while at the same time drying up the very sources of capital.”
How confused can you get! Police and Fire services are usually provided by states or national governments – they have nothing to do with “socialism”.
The school system should cater for all who can and should provide education according to the freedom of association, and the principle of subsidiarity.
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Black_Rose
Guest
Ok, so what are the allegedly “dehumanizing effects” on those who receive benefits from a welfare state? No, the point of the welfare state is that it is effective if it has adequate funding, more effective than “family, neighbors, churches, unions, fraternal societies, or other associations.”
But my post concerns the virtue of the citizens of the welfare state. It shows how one can be virtuous when living in a welfare state even though opportunities for domestic private charity are drastically reduced.
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ERose
Guest
Monk, if I wanted to live in a society that was socialistic I would move to another country. There are plenty to choose from. But I have been to these other countries and worked in these other countries and talked to and worked with the people that live in these other countries and you know that the far majority of them tell me? Pray that your country does not fall in the same trap ours did.
There is only one place like America in the world but there are many socialistic countries out there. So I say I stay here and if someone wants to live in a socialistic country, let them move to a socialistic country.
Also being a capitalist does not mean we want no government. Government has its role which we pay taxes for. National Defense, Border Protection, Establishing and Upholding the law, etc. Police and Firefighters are not a socialist creation. They are government entities that provide a service to the communities they are in. Granted you could privatize the Firefighters but collecting taxes from the community to give to the firefighter company would be questionable don’t you think. With police you would have the same problem with collecting taxes to give to a private organization but I do not think that it is the place a a private organization to uphold the laws that the government creates and is called to enforce. No they are government institutions that are required to be government institutions.
Digging from the bottom of the barrel comment in nice, Monk. Especially considering that I am right and you are confused.
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Black_Rose
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No, you barely have any grasp of history at all…Digging from the bottom of the barrel comment in nice, Monk. Especially considering that I am right and you are confused.
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Abu
Guest
How strange that when the welfare state produces dependence, laziness, and the usurpation of the legitimate role of local institutions, so that it is harmful, the confused don’t know what the Church teaches. Blundering around seems to be the order of the day. Unless and until posters know what Christ’s Church teaches they will continue to flounder.
**Face Reality **
It is high time that the sloppy repetitive rhetoric routinely pedalled here be replaced by reason and faith. Is complacency so strong that the dehumanising effects of bureaucratic state programs are not even appreciated?
From *Centesimus Annus *(John Paul II, 1991):
“48. Economic activity, especially the activity of a market economy, cannot be conducted in an institutional, juridical or political vacuum. On the contrary, it presupposes sure guarantees of individual freedom and private property, as well as a stable currency and efficient public services. Hence the principle task of the State is to guarantee this security, so that those who work and produce can enjoy the fruits of their labours and thus feel encouraged to work efficiently and honestly. The absence of stability, together with the corruption of public officials and the spread of improper sources of growing rich and of easy profits deriving from illegal or purely speculative activities, constitutes one of the chief obstacles to development and to the economic order.
“Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State [Welfare State] are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.100
“By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending. In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them and who act as neighbours to those in need. It should be added that certain kinds of demands often call for a response which is not simply material but which is capable of perceiving the deeper human need. One thinks of the condition of refugees, immigrants, the elderly, the sick, and all those in circumstances which call for assistance, such as drug abusers: all these people can be helped effectively only by those who offer them genuine fraternal support, in addition to the necessary care.”
“Note
100. Pius XI, Encyclical Letter Quadragesimo Anno, I : loc. cit., 184-186.”
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Black_Rose
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I don’t see how the welfare state leads to “a loss of human energies”. Your quote does not explain how the welfare state inadequately provides for the material needs of people, just that the state itself is incapable “of perceiving the deeper human need”. But the welfare state can nurture feelings of friendship and sympathy among countrymen as I described in my post in the thread. How is that “dehumanizing”?
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Monk21
Guest
To all those who think that your services like Fire, Police etc are not a form of socialistic action Please tell me how you arrive at this?
!. You pay your taxes.
2. A portion of your taxes go to pay for the police, fire, etc.
3. The whole community is protected.
Now
!. You pay your taxes.
2. A portion of your taxes go to pay for the police, fire, etc.
3. The whole community is protected.
Now
- You pay your taxes.
- A portion of your taxes go to pay for medical needs.
- The whole community is covered.
Please explain how one is socialistic and the other is not?
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ERose
Guest
Are talking about actual history or the history that you people on the are trying to rewrite?
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Monk21
Guest
Now take a look at what the Pope has said and look at capitalism:
Kinda similar things to look at;
Gov. reps, allowing tax evasion by putting in so many loop holes that the rich don’t pay.
Patients being dumped on the streets because they are homeless and can’t pay.
Banks causing depressions through criminal activity and getting away with it.
Insurance companies denying payment for legitement claims.
Governments running deficits and over spending.
Military takes too big a bite out of the revenues, (something Eisenhower warned abt)
War like attitude if other countries do not toe the line.
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Vezelay
Guest
Every time Social Security has had to be tweaked over the 75 yrs of its existence, it has been and it has flourished. It will be adjusted again and will continue to be the favorite program in the history of the country. Same with Medicare and Medicaid. The American people will not, however, permit the return of the stupid Bush doughnut hole.
Health care is not NECESSARY??? how can a kid get to school if he is not healthy? How come the huge majority of those at the most selective universities, Yale, Harvard, et al, come from public schools? They are the top high school graduates. From my experience at Yale graduate schools, most students came from public schools.
In many areas the public hospitals are the superior institutions. Of course the so called private hospitals are subsidized by government funding so exactly how “private” are they? They could not exist with government money. Do you mind that your “private” hospital relies on public funds, my tax dollars???
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Monk21
Guest
This whole attitude of Americans here reminds me of an Admiral King in the U.S. navy during WWII.
He would not adopt the Canadian form of protection for ships during the Battle of the Atlantic.
He would send out ships by themselves and they would be sunk, while at the same time the Canadians were sending convoys down to South America through the same area to pick up crude oil to be refined in Canada and not losing any ships, but because King would not adopt the convoy system he lost 24 American ships in 4 months with over 2 million tons of shipping lost. This all happened off the coast of the USA. Just plain stupid and stubborn. Finally Winston Churchill convinced him to smarten up, while Eisenhower was heard to comment, “if somebody would shoot King we could shorten the war”
Here was a man who refused to think beyond his own old ideas and it cost dearly.
He would not adopt the Canadian form of protection for ships during the Battle of the Atlantic.
He would send out ships by themselves and they would be sunk, while at the same time the Canadians were sending convoys down to South America through the same area to pick up crude oil to be refined in Canada and not losing any ships, but because King would not adopt the convoy system he lost 24 American ships in 4 months with over 2 million tons of shipping lost. This all happened off the coast of the USA. Just plain stupid and stubborn. Finally Winston Churchill convinced him to smarten up, while Eisenhower was heard to comment, “if somebody would shoot King we could shorten the war”
Here was a man who refused to think beyond his own old ideas and it cost dearly.
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Abu
Guest
In reviewing John XXIII’s encyclical Mater et Magistra, Father Robert Sirico observes that the Pontiff’s desire was to strengthen mediating institutions in order to protect the primacy of the human person. Far from advancing any form of collectivism, Pope John wanted to “multiply social relationships” so that the individual would be free to pursue the common good. Socialization does not mean centralization. Rather, it refers to the voluntary associations which Alexis de Tocqueville praised as being a vital part of American freedom in the 1830s.
The top-down, centralized planning of the Soviet system could not succeed because it contradicted the subsidiarity principle. When producers and consumers are not allowed to bargain freely, prices cease to reflect meaningful information and become arbitrary dictates of the bureaucracy.
cobdencentre.org/2010/04/catholic-social-conscience-talk-philip-booth/
By Toby Baxendale, on 14 April, 2010
“Regulatory bureaus tend to expand and acquire more powers. Those who enjoy exercising such powers are attracted to work in such institutions. The middle way is, then, inherently unstable. This is not a pessimistic view of human nature. It is just pointing out that when we criticise the concept of self interest in markets then we cannot assume the concept away when government is responsible for the allocation of economic resources. Just look at the budget situation of the US, Japan and almost every EU country. They are all, through the democratic process, piling burdens on future generations in order to finance today’s consumption encouraged by the self interest of voters and politicians.
“When the state acts it undermines the autonomy of individuals, families, businesses, charities, cooperatives, mutuals and professional and civil associations to act separately and in solidarity to meet the varied needs of families and the joint needs of the community in their own ways. We also frequently find that the result of government action is often precisely the opposite of that intended. If we do not like what we see in a market economy then our response should be to promote virtue, not big government.”
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Abu
Guest
The failure to understand the free enterprise system is the failure to understand the fact that many governments in the West have chosen, over many years, to manipulate the free enterprise system which has led to the massive distortions now evident in all. Only a return to the sound principles established through reason and the theology of Christ’s Church, with the thrift of individuals, can restore economies to providing that acknowledgement of subsidiarity which is the backbone of free enterprise.
Free enterprise was developed by Catholic Late Scholastics and has enabled the banishment of the dire poverty which preceded it, part of how the Church built Western civilization. Pope John Paul II acclaimed the free economy that recognises the “fundamental role” of private property and the freedom of mankind to economic creativity, as “the path to true civil and economic progress” within “the fundamental and positive role of business, the market”… “and the resulting responsibility for the means of production.” Centesimus Annus #42, 1991].
No economic laws encourage “hoarding of wealth” – some PEOPLE hoard wealth. No wealth can be created until it is produced – that’s why the Late Scholastic system works so well to enable everyone to produce some wealth and to do with it as they choose through free-will. Economic laws are based on the principles of human action – of cause and effect involving God-given reason.
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