B
Black_Rose
Guest
A sustained collective response from individuals would never happen, and it would be foolish to expect that it would happen.
- Status
A
ab75
Guest
I don’t expect it can … just making a comment.
If man didn’t have original sin, meaning if man could only do good, work hard and be generous, either system would work, however I believe capitalism would still be better due to the less consolidated power in government. However, in our state, both systems are ultimately flawed, and the one that allows for private property is slightly harder to be corrupted by a few.
B
Black_Rose
Guest
That does not necessarily follow. Certainly, if we acknowledge that man’s nature is “fallen”, it does not justify the Rousseau’s view that all men are innately good and that it is their environment and civilization that corrupted them. But why doesn’t the “fallen nature” assumption lead to the necessity of repressive institutions that prevent man from acting savagely and instead promote virtuous conduct?
Of course, the “repressive institutions” do not imply “socialism” in any sense, although it is inherently opposed to liberty and “economic freedom” because of its suspicion of enshrining economic self-interest as virtue, but such thought is also compatible with conservative thought too.
M
Monk21
Guest
Would all the people here who advocate personal help for the poor please write down the names of all the poor you personally know. How many children do you know who go to bed hungry or have to go to school with no breakfast.
The poor tend to be hidden and I believe that they will approach government agencies before they go to community. I managed a St. Vincent de Paul store after I retired and I found that the poor in many cases are too embarrassed to seek local help.
Yet it is a fact that the most successful churches are the ones who have hands on workers who help the poor. They attract more people and become vibrant parishes.
The poor tend to be hidden and I believe that they will approach government agencies before they go to community. I managed a St. Vincent de Paul store after I retired and I found that the poor in many cases are too embarrassed to seek local help.
Yet it is a fact that the most successful churches are the ones who have hands on workers who help the poor. They attract more people and become vibrant parishes.
Z
zenblue102
Guest
I agree with Monk21. Personally, I have dedicated my life to working with the poor and homeless in the area where I live which is, overall, one of the richest counties in the state. It is easy to over look the poor in this are but they are there and they need help. Over the past few years, the face of the poor has changed significantly…it is you and me with a job loos, a relationship loss, a medical issue, etc.
When I joined this forum, I was considering joining the Catholic Church but everything I have read here has convinced me not to as well as the fact that I don’t see as much “work” going on in the Catholic Church as I do in others in this area. Lots of Masses…not much working with the masses
I have read alot of arcane attitudes on this forum and alot of relying on others (the CHURCH & the POPE) to do one’s thinking for them. God gave us free will and brains…not so that the Vatican could dictate to us but so that we could think and feel for ourselves. So think…study…read other biblical commentaries other than Catholic theologians and see how your mind opens. Questions attract and hold our attention better than answers. Now if there were a Catholic Questions Forum??? LOL…
Good Luck folks!
When I joined this forum, I was considering joining the Catholic Church but everything I have read here has convinced me not to as well as the fact that I don’t see as much “work” going on in the Catholic Church as I do in others in this area. Lots of Masses…not much working with the masses
I have read alot of arcane attitudes on this forum and alot of relying on others (the CHURCH & the POPE) to do one’s thinking for them. God gave us free will and brains…not so that the Vatican could dictate to us but so that we could think and feel for ourselves. So think…study…read other biblical commentaries other than Catholic theologians and see how your mind opens. Questions attract and hold our attention better than answers. Now if there were a Catholic Questions Forum??? LOL…Good Luck folks!
J
jimpres
Guest
ZenBlue, it is a shame to make such a decision based on the few who comment here in this thread. If you are in RCI please continue but do not make a decision based on this forum. There are many people who will try to pull you away from the church that submit comments to this forum.I agree with Monk21. Personally, I have dedicated my life to working with the poor and homeless in the area where I live which is, overall, one of the richest counties in the state. It is easy to over look the poor in this are but they are there and they need help. Over the past few years, the face of the poor has changed significantly…it is you and me with a job loos, a relationship loss, a medical issue, etc.
When I joined this forum, I was considering joining the Catholic Church but everything I have read here has convinced me not to as well as the fact that I don’t see as much “work” going on in the Catholic Church as I do in others in this area. Lots of Masses…not much working with the masses
Good Luck folks!
I will pray you do the right thing in God’s eyes.
M
Monk21
Guest
I don’t know what got you to change your mind from this group, but it is not something I would stop your search of the church for.I agree with Monk21. Personally, I have dedicated my life to working with the poor and homeless in the area where I live which is, overall, one of the richest counties in the state. It is easy to over look the poor in this are but they are there and they need help. Over the past few years, the face of the poor has changed significantly…it is you and me with a job loos, a relationship loss, a medical issue, etc.
When I joined this forum, I was considering joining the Catholic Church but everything I have read here has convinced me not to as well as the fact that I don’t see as much “work” going on in the Catholic Church as I do in others in this area. Lots of Masses…not much working with the masses
Good Luck folks!
In my community we have lots of hands on work with the poor from housing to drop-in-centres to St. Vincent de Paul groups in every parish.
If you noticed I did not participate with too much (name removed by moderator)ut after geo got going with the legalistic stuff.
Take the RCIA course and then decide, you will find it a rich experience and it will give you a better picture of the church to make a better decision.
God Bless, I shall pray for you.
F
FOFEBA
Guest
In perusing these posts, it seems to me that there is a lot of confusion about socialism, versus Marxism, Communism and totalitarinism.
Firstly, it is clear, to me anyway, that Capitalism CAN be as dehumanizing as any other economic system. When greed is a prime motivator, it probably doesn’t matter what sort of system is in place. Greedy people will find ways to exploit others.
There are situations in which socialism works very well. For example, in small Asian villages, it is common for the entire village to own and tend to the rice paddies. The means of production is shared. The work is shared. The crop is shared. It works well, and is a better life than one might see if Halliburton were to move in and take over the water supply and the rice field.
One of the other fallacies that we see in the preceding posts is that socialism and democracy are somehow mutually exclusive. They are not.
I am not an advocate of socialism for large economies because I don’t think it works. I also think that we have seen some of the dangers of capitalism recently. All you need is a corrupt government such as the previous administration to see something like the Goldman Sachs and friends wealth redistribution, to use a specific example.
There is nothing inherently immoral about capitalism, but proper controls must be put in place to discourage the abuse of markets, labor and property. The same is true of socialism. There is nothing immoral about it. However, it can be an immoral economic system, depending on how it is implemented. Certainly, as it is commonly practiced in Catholic Monasteries, it would not be considered immoral. The monks share the means of production and the labor in order to feed themselves. They pool their labor in order to pay their bills. That is a form of socialism.
Firstly, it is clear, to me anyway, that Capitalism CAN be as dehumanizing as any other economic system. When greed is a prime motivator, it probably doesn’t matter what sort of system is in place. Greedy people will find ways to exploit others.
There are situations in which socialism works very well. For example, in small Asian villages, it is common for the entire village to own and tend to the rice paddies. The means of production is shared. The work is shared. The crop is shared. It works well, and is a better life than one might see if Halliburton were to move in and take over the water supply and the rice field.
One of the other fallacies that we see in the preceding posts is that socialism and democracy are somehow mutually exclusive. They are not.
I am not an advocate of socialism for large economies because I don’t think it works. I also think that we have seen some of the dangers of capitalism recently. All you need is a corrupt government such as the previous administration to see something like the Goldman Sachs and friends wealth redistribution, to use a specific example.
There is nothing inherently immoral about capitalism, but proper controls must be put in place to discourage the abuse of markets, labor and property. The same is true of socialism. There is nothing immoral about it. However, it can be an immoral economic system, depending on how it is implemented. Certainly, as it is commonly practiced in Catholic Monasteries, it would not be considered immoral. The monks share the means of production and the labor in order to feed themselves. They pool their labor in order to pay their bills. That is a form of socialism.
A
anthony022071
Guest
These are not example of socialism,because they do not involve a state government. Socialism is about government control over the means of production and private property. It is not about voluntary sharing of goods and labor among custom-bound villagers or members of a religious community. A communal economy can work in small communities that are closely bound by cultural tradition or religion,but in a large society not closely bound together by a common culture or religion,people are not obligated to share their goods and labor in common. The terms of belonging to a large “society” are much looser than those of belonging to a small,close-bound community.
A
Abu
Guest
You confuse the laws of economics in free enterprise, discovered by reason using cause and effect, with the actions of individuals who may or may not be moral and virtuous in dealing with others.
Certainly Monasteries do not practise socialism – their lifestyle is communal, and freely chosen: a communal group is one in which people freely share every material possession for a purpose – as are certain Catholic religious orders. There is no government control of everything.
While the Sacred Scriptures condemn greed and wrong use of wealth, commerce or merchants are not condemned. St Augustine stated that price was not only of the seller’s costs but of the buyer’s desire for the item sold. The first examples of free enterprise appeared in the great Catholic monasteries, about the ninth century. (John Gilchrist, The Church and Economic Activity in the Middle Ages, St Martin’s Press1969, I; cf. op. cit (Stark, below) p xii, 55-58).
The fact is that Catholic philosophy and theology, based on reason and faith, enabled the birth of free enterprise. From the great monastic estates in the ninth century, immense increases in agricultural productivity grew from “such significant innovations as the switch to horses, the heavy moldboard plow, and the three-field system” away from subsistence agriculture to specialised crops and products, sold at a profit to initiate a cash economy. “As their incomes continued to mount, this led many monasteries to become banks, lending to the nobility.” The Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p 58].
Randall Collins has noted that innovation and specialization in the monastic estates was “a version of the developed characteristics of capitalism itself… the dynamism of the medieval economy was primarily that of the Church.” [Randall Collins, *The Sociology of Philosophies: A Global Theory of Intellectual Change, 1998, Cambridge: Harvard University Press, p 47].
A
Abu
Guest
How fatuous. The free will and brains that God gave us were accompanied by His natural moral law, and lastly by His Son, Jesus of Nazareth, who gave us His Church and His Magisterium (teaching authority) “Go and make disciples of all nations….teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” (Mt 28:19-20).
When you have learned what Jesus teaches through His Church you may be able to see what a farce an “open mind” can be if it is unable to close on truth. Avery Cardinal Dulles had spoken at a symposium on the social mission of the Church that led to the notoriously radical “Call to Action” conference in Detroit in October 1976. In the 1996 edition of Testimonial, he characterized the conference participants as “questionably Catholic” and the whole process as an “object lesson in how a small group of militant activists could manipulate a large majority of open-minded liberal delegates, thus aligning the assembly with an agenda that had little in common with the Catholic tradition.”
To be able to follow Jesus the Christ you have to know what He teaches through His Church – Her Magisterium, Her Sacred Scriptures and her Tradition.
Even the notoriously anti-Catholic historian W E H Lecky admitted that the Church’s sheer scope and commitment to the poor constituted something new in the Western world, representing a dramatic improvement over the standards of classical antiquity. [Dr Thomas E Woods, Jr., *How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, Regnery 2005, p 7].
L
luvzminis
Guest
Aren’t you forgetting missionaries??
L
luvzminis
Guest
, Regnery 2005, p 7].
Well said, Abu!
I think some people “aren’t seeing” or “aren’t hearing” good things about the Church because the only media outlets they use (the usual suspects in mainstream) are notoriously anti-Catholic. Therefore, anyone listening to them hasn’t actually heard “news” at all–just sheer propaganda with a far Leftist spin.
The Church is probably–even more than that–IS doing more than anyone else–spiritually, certainly, but in every other way, also. It’s also growing fast, and likely that’s because of the current (and never-ending, just as Christ predicted) persecution against It. If one really wants to understand the Church and all the good It does, he/she should be willing to do a little homework on their own. They’ll never hear anything positive from the secular sources who are doing all they can to discredit/push back the Church and Its influence. As I said previously, the Church is the #1 barrier to the enslavement of socialism and communism, which is a chief reason totalitarians hate it so much. That speaks volumes, doesn’t it??
A
Abu
Guest
That’s much better than the sneer “Amos just loves that free market, doesn’t he? I’m kind of missing Christ’s pro-business message, too. Maybe in Matthew?” (#553)
On wage fixing the Catholic Late Scholastics favoured leaving wage determination to the ‘common estimation’ of the market, since any other method is inherently arbitrary and leads to endless complications.
Here, Fr Brian Harrison, O.S., in *Religious Liberty And Contraception *is helpful (John XXXIII Fellowship Co-op (Australia), 1988, p 22-23), concerning “the practical order: human rights and duties.”
“But for a certain norm of action to be a matter of doctrine, it would clearly have to be proposed as a universally binding norm – one which is of certain validity always and everywhere. Thus, we could not elevate to the status of doctrine a norm which is proposed provisionally, and as a subject to possible future correction after future consideration; nor one which is a particular ad hoc decision applying to given circumstances which might turn out to be transitory; nor, finally, one which is a concrete directive designed to give practical force to a doctrine which is in itself too broad or general to have much effect without such further application or specification. (An obvious example of such a doctrine would be the teaching – both natural and revealed – that a labourer deserves a just wage.)”
Everything outside of faith and morals is meant to be learned and developed by non-Magisterial Catholics (and others) in the world of living and acting using reason, without exercising "religious authority”.
In social teaching, despite breaching their own guidelines on occasion, Popes have warned explicitly against thinking that they have unique insights into specific matters of economic policy.
“If I were to pronounce on any single matter of a prevailing economic problem, I should be interfering with the freedom of men to work out their own affairs. Certain cases must be solved in the domain of facts, case by case as they occur…[M]en must realise in deeds those things, the principles of which have been placed beyond dispute…[T]hese things one must leave to the solution of time and experience.” [Pope Leo XIII. Quoted in *The Church And The Market, Dr Thomas E. Woods, Lexington Books, 2005, p 4].
“The Schoolmen determined that wages, profits and rents are not for the government to decide. Since they are beyond the sphere of distributive justice, they should be determined by common estimation in the market.” Christians For Freedom, Dr Alejandro Chafuen, Ignatius 1986, p 122].
L
luvzminis
Guest
Do you not realize that the supposed “thinking for them” is not that, but are directives coming directly from Christ since the start of His Church?I agree with Monk21. Personally, I have dedicated my life to working with the poor and homeless in the area where I live which is, overall, one of the richest counties in the state. It is easy to over look the poor in this are but they are there and they need help. Over the past few years, the face of the poor has changed significantly…it is you and me with a job loos, a relationship loss, a medical issue, etc.
When I joined this forum, I was considering joining the Catholic Church but everything I have read here has convinced me not to as well as the fact that I don’t see as much “work” going on in the Catholic Church as I do in others in this area. Lots of Masses…not much working with the masses
Good Luck folks!
I don’t mean to be rude, friend, but, how can any sensible person believe the Pope and the Church “think” for Catholics? Do you really think Catholics are gullible no-minds who can’t think for themselves and decide what is right and what is wrong? Those Catholics who do follow the Pope speaking about Church teachings (directly from Christ, Himself) have simply found the full truth. Anyone who thinks Catholics are gullible puppets have not studied the Church teachings thoroughly enough. You can’t look at the teachings and beliefs on the surface and expect to understand them thoroughly. But if you’re willing to take the time to understand the ‘whys and wherefores,’ you’ll discover how beautiful–and correct the Church is. It’s way ahead of Its time, as evidenced, for example, by the Pope saying in 1960 that the Pill would cause the breakup of marriages and the disrespect of women. Bingo! Secularists thought he was crazy, but he was far ahead of his time. Divine inspiration!
R
RonGawthorp
Guest
Food for thought… The universe is far greater than humanity in what the eye can see, and though the human person is far greater in dignity, our intellect on its own simply cannot grasp the meaning and fully understand our destiny, our problems, the solutions, life, death, existence, etc.I agree with Monk21. Personally, I have dedicated my life to working with the poor and homeless in the area where I live which is, overall, one of the richest counties in the state. It is easy to over look the poor in this are but they are there and they need help. Over the past few years, the face of the poor has changed significantly…it is you and me with a job loos, a relationship loss, a medical issue, etc.
When I joined this forum, I was considering joining the Catholic Church but everything I have read here has convinced me not to as well as the fact that I don’t see as much “work” going on in the Catholic Church as I do in others in this area. Lots of Masses…not much working with the masses
Good Luck folks!
Death alone is sufficient to secure and prove my point that the person who needs luck is the one who depends on himself to “think…study…read” himself into understanding it all, much less actualizing his purpose.
Sorry Zen, but that line of reasoning (which is really a subtle mockery) has been overused against authority. It’s outdated. Truly, you can’t claim to be free from authority… and there is no good reason to refuse the authority of the Catholic Church, though many labor at it eternally.
The line of reasoning you’ve propounded is not something to stake your being on. I hope you’ll reconsider your studies.
B
Black_Rose
Guest
Didn’t the Roman Empire administer a grain dole?
Ok, could you provide an elegant summary instead of just reference the work of right-wing Catholics?
For example, could you write your own summary (or copy and paste it) about how the Catholic Church took care of the poor (and most importantly why would we should try to emulate that system today). Use this example provided here for the Tang Dynasty.
My post says what it says; Christianity did not have a significant influence in China, especially during the Tang Dynasty. There were some Nestorian missionaries in China around that period, but it is your burden of proof to show that they had a significant influence on Tang culture.
G
Geowitz
Guest
The bottom line is that economics, like biology, is made up of a set of laws. You don’t implement economics, you understand it. That’s why the church’s teachings on “economics” is no more authoritative than their teachings on biology. There is no moral component to the laws of economics just like there is no moral component to the laws of biology. Morality ONLY enters the situation when you try to go against the laws of economics or biology. Herein lies the problem with socialism in all of its forms and even with separate policies being implemented in the US - Socialism seeks to implement economic policy and rules that go against the natural laws of economics and that is immoral.
B
Black_Rose
Guest
If one accepts what you have written, then one could say that a laissez-faire government is amoral; there is nothing moral about free-market outcomes. It supposedly makes “morality” easier since, by your definition, the laws of economics have no economic component, and embracing laissez-faire is embracing the laws of economics.
Henry CK Liu has written something similar about Hayek’s social philosophy:
atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/LD15Dj04.html
But one purpose for understanding the “laws of biology” (which are essentially reducible to the interactions of molecules behaving in a Darwinian fashion for billions of years), is so one can manipulate it for one’s own benefit. For example, understanding cholesterol biosynthesis, prostaglandin synthesis from omega-6 fatty acids, the signal transduction pathways of some cancers allows sufficient knowledge to develop pharmaceuticals such as statins (which inhibits HMG-CoA reductase, the enzyme involved in the committed step in cholesterol biosynthesis), COX (cyclooxgenase) inhibitors, and kinase inhibitors. The same could be said about economics too since the laws can be used to benefit the economy of a nation-state, or perhaps the global economy if there is sufficient cooperation. But pharmacology, like economic intervention, is inherently interventionist since one intends to deliver a molecule that would disrupt a “natural” biochemical process for the benefit of a patient. Of course, economic intervention can be a net positive, but like pharmaceuticals, there are gross negatives (like side-effects) and contraindications for certain policy prescriptions of monetary and fiscal interventionism.
So going against the “laws” of biology and economics are immoral? Is taking Lipitor going against the “laws” of biology?
But I do not accept that morality only enters the situation when one tries to go “against” the laws of biology and economics because it allows condones sins of omission because it is a disincentive for any meliorative action.
- Status