Why is stability better than just laws?

[fakename]

Generally, Catholics should go against unjust laws unless doing so would cause a greater evil like introducing political anarchy.

But why is disorder worse than an unjust law? First, an unjust law is an affront to spirit, and anarchy is an affront to worldly peace and only indirectly to spirit, so the first is more important and should be a proportionate reason for introducing commotion.

Secondly, disorder offends human nature in that human nature needs a community but an unjust law offends human nature even more deeply in that it makes people partners in crime against justice. So shouldn’t allowing a crime against man to occur be better than doing or allowing a crime against ideal justice?

Thirdly, there is no inherent evil against fighting against an unjust lawmaker so, if (1) and (2) are true, then there should be no problem fighting unjust laws.

So again why?

 

[thistle]

Generally, Catholics should go against unjust laws unless doing so would cause a greater evil like introducing political anarchy.

But why is disorder worse than an unjust law? First, an unjust law is an affront to spirit, and anarchy is an affront to worldly peace and only indirectly to spirit, so the first is more important and should be a proportionate reason for introducing commotion.

Secondly, disorder offends human nature in that human nature needs a community but an unjust law offends human nature even more deeply in that it makes people partners in crime against justice. So shouldn’t allowing a crime against man to occur be better than doing or allowing a crime against ideal justice?

Thirdly, there is no inherent evil against fighting against an unjust lawmaker so, if (1) and (2) are true, then there should be no problem fighting unjust laws.

So again why?

It depends what fighting unjust laws entails. You cannot take it to the extent that your means are evil even if the intent is to do a good.

 

[fakename]

It depends what fighting unjust laws entails. You cannot take it to the extent that your means are evil even if the intent is to do a good.

I don’t think fighting unjust laws entails anything w/o a reference to a particular case. That being said, fighting an unjust law may require getting into a war or revolution that could impede normal gov. functions like the provision of utilities.

In this case wouldn’t the bad be proportioned to the good?

And in any case, theologians often say that you should fight unjust laws, unless there’s danger of disorder.

But isn’t this just kowtowing to worldly concerns or if not, then either what does disorder mean or what is so important about order?

 

[mgoforth]

I don’t think fighting unjust laws entails anything w/o a reference to a particular case. That being said, fighting an unjust law may require getting into a war or revolution that could impede normal gov. functions like the provision of utilities.

In this case wouldn’t the bad be proportioned to the good?

And in any case, theologians often say that you should fight unjust laws, unless there’s danger of disorder.

But isn’t this just kowtowing to worldly concerns or if not, then either what does disorder mean or what is so important about order?

There is more than one way to “fight” unjust laws. Christ didn’t warn us that we might have to start a revolution or guerrilla war…what he did say was:

If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘ A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. He who hates Me hates My Father also. If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well. But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, “They hated Me without a cause.”
John 15: 18-25

Also St. Peter tells us:

Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men. Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable. For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly. For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.

For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth;** and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously**; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.
1 Peter 2: 13-25

In other words, follow Christ’s example and be prepared to patiently suffer under unjust laws. If you think our laws are perversions of justice now…just wait a few more years until we’ve gone through a worldwide financial collapse and find ourselves face to face with peak oil’s nasty consequences… In terms of injustice I’d say you ain’t seen nothing yet!

 

[AthenaC]

I think that’s a good question. My answer would depend on what type of unjust law. Laws permitting abuse and murder of people who can literally do nothing to help themselves (I’m thinking of abortion here) MUST be fought. Unjust laws that only impact adults are still unjust laws to be sure, but in general adults have the ability to step out of the path of the Tiananmen square tank in the way that children and the unborn do not. In those cases some of the cost-benefit analysis should come into play.

 

[thistle]

I don’t think fighting unjust laws entails anything w/o a reference to a particular case. That being said, fighting an unjust law may require getting into a war or revolution that could impede normal gov. functions like the provision of utilities.

In this case wouldn’t the bad be proportioned to the good?

And in any case, theologians often say that you should fight unjust laws, unless there’s danger of disorder.

But isn’t this just kowtowing to worldly concerns or if not, then either what does disorder mean or what is so important about order?

For example it would be fine to lobby, have marches and rallies against plus any other peaceful ways to protest against those politicians who voted for abortion but it is not okay to commit violence against them (you cannot do an evil to achieve a good).

 

[fakename]

There is more than one way to “fight” unjust laws. Christ didn’t warn us that we might have to start a revolution or guerrilla war…what he did say was:

Also St. Peter tells us:

In other words, follow Christ’s example and be prepared to patiently suffer under unjust laws. If you think our laws are perversions of justice now…just wait a few more years until we’ve gone through a worldwide financial collapse and find ourselves face to face with peak oil’s nasty consequences… In terms of injustice I’d say you ain’t seen nothing yet!

But what is the intrinsic reason why order is better than just laws? The quotes above
seem to give only an extrinsic reason (God said so).

Either way, the quotes also prove too much (when read w/o context at least) for we are allowed to rightfully rebel and est. a true government in certain cases and yet this goes against the idea to suffer people who are unreasonable (if this statement is to be considered to apply to every and each case of unreasonableness).

 

[fakename]

For example it would be fine to lobby, have marches and rallies against plus any other peaceful ways to protest against those politicians who voted for abortion but it is not okay to commit violence against them (you cannot do an evil to achieve a good).

Technically though, to kill them is just to kill murderers and has more the nature of an execution than anything. This is not intrinsically wrong. The only real sin involved would be the sin of judging those in authority when one has no authority to do so, and yet when someone’s crimes are so obvious to everyone, then the sin of judgmentalism is quite non-existent and one is the authority when the state is tyrannical .

One could of course say that rebellions are only justified as a last case resort, that’s correct but does this assume that public order is more important?

So if that’s true then why is order more important? And either way no one has answered why order is more important per se, than justice?

 

[mgoforth]

But what is the intrinsic reason why order is better than just laws? The quotes above
seem to give only an extrinsic reason (God said so).

Either way, the quotes also prove too much (when read w/o context at least) for we are allowed to rightfully rebel and est. a true government in certain cases and yet this goes against the idea to suffer people who are unreasonable (if this statement is to be considered to apply to every and each case of unreasonableness).

All I said is that violence is not the ONLY way. Sometimes it may be appropriate, but probably after we’ve suffered bravely first. Our laws would have to be more unjust, IMO, for outright revolution to be justified.

As far as intrinsic vs extrinsic…is it really your position that God is extrinsic to morality? Rethink that one. God IS morality. It’s a defining characteristic of His nature. “God said so” is an intrinsic reason for a Christian, not extrinsic.

 

[thistle]

Technically though, to kill them is just to kill murderers and has more the nature of an execution than anything. This is not intrinsically wrong. The only real sin involved would be the sin of judging those in authority when one has no authority to do so, and yet when someone’s crimes are so obvious to everyone, then the sin of judgmentalism is quite non-existent and one is the authority when the state is tyrannical .

One could of course say that rebellions are only justified as a last case resort, that’s correct but does this assume that public order is more important?

So if that’s true then why is order more important? And either way no one has answered why order is more important per se, than justice?

By killing them you would be committing murder in both the eyes of the law and the eyes of the Church. It is intrinsically wrong.
Under your thought process it would be okay to firebomb an abortion clinic and kill all the medical staff and the person having an abortion. Such a position of course is nonsense and absolutely against Church teaching.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

I don’t think fighting unjust laws entails anything w/o a reference to a particular case. That being said, fighting an unjust law may require getting into a war or revolution that could impede normal gov. functions like the provision of utilities.

In this case wouldn’t the bad be proportioned to the good?

And in any case, theologians often say that you should fight unjust laws, unless there’s danger of disorder.

But isn’t this just kowtowing to worldly concerns or if not, then either what does disorder mean or what is so important about order?

I think disorder is to be avoided because it threatens so many weak and vulnerable people. Examples are seen everywhere. In great wars, who suffers the most? Children, and the elderly do. Who benefits the most from civil order? Again, children, and the elderly do.

I think Hobbes said it best. *“No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. *”

Like AthenaC said. There are the risks, and the benefits to consider. When you’ve taken stock of both. You make your choice.

ATB

 

[fakename]

All I said is that violence is not the ONLY way. Sometimes it may be appropriate, but probably after we’ve suffered bravely first. Our laws would have to be more unjust, IMO, for outright revolution to be justified.

As far as intrinsic vs extrinsic…is it really your position that God is extrinsic to morality? Rethink that one. God IS morality. It’s a defining characteristic of His nature. “God said so” is an intrinsic reason for a Christian, not extrinsic.

In a way clearly God is extrinsic to morality in the sense that if he said killing is wrong, it would be wrong for other reasons than just “God said so”, although from a different POV it would be wrong simply because “God said so”. I would say that the reason is because the first is more of a proof that relies of faith and the other is a proof that is more reasonable and earthly. And God is morality but he isn’t actually morality or else he would be a definite thing, but God transcends all so he isn’t what we know by morality.

So I ask, what is the earthly and in some sense more essential reason why order is better?

 

[fakename]

By killing them you would be committing murder in both the eyes of the law and the eyes of the Church. It is intrinsically wrong.
Under your thought process it would be okay to firebomb an abortion clinic and kill all the medical staff and the person having an abortion. Such a position of course is nonsense and absolutely against Church teaching.

The only reason people don’t kill all the medical staff and etc. is because the Church has told us not to as a practical/legal matter precisely because it would upset good order (at least that was what I was told). So either tell me a new reason or tell me why order is better?

And anyways, what is the proof that one is committing murder when one kills an actual tyrant or defends a person from being murdered?

 

[fakename]

I think disorder is to be avoided because it threatens so many weak and vulnerable people. Examples are seen everywhere. In great wars, who suffers the most? Children, and the elderly do. Who benefits the most from civil order? Again, children, and the elderly do.

I think Hobbes said it best. *“No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. *”

Like AthenaC said. There are the risks, and the benefits to consider. When you’ve taken stock of both. You make your choice.

ATB

Okay, that’s a good answer although I don’t think that all huge wars are necessarily wrong but nonetheless it’s a good answer.

 

[mgoforth]

In a way clearly God is extrinsic to morality in the sense that if he said killing is wrong, it would be wrong for other reasons than just “God said so”, although from a different POV it would be wrong simply because “God said so”. I would say that the reason is because the first is more of a proof that relies of faith and the other is a proof that is more reasonable and earthly. And God is morality but he isn’t actually morality or else he would be a definite thing, but God transcends all so he isn’t what we know by morality

I don’t see the distinction between what God says and ultimate moral truth, because God is Truth. God is also Morality, and Love, Justice, Peace, Strength, Life, etc… In my mind, that doesn’t limit Him because ultimately they’re all the same thing. They’re all God. I’m not saying that God is not a person (3 Persons actually) or that He’s just a collection of virtues. He’s the embodiment of those virtues in personal form. So our words are limited, and our concept of true morality may be limited, but God’s reality as embodiment of true morality is unlimited.

So when God says “x is moral, y is immoral”…it’s just a reflection of His nature. He never sat down and decided which things would be moral or immoral, IOW.

 

[mgoforth]

The only reason people don’t kill all the medical staff and etc. is because the Church has told us not to as a practical/legal matter precisely because it would upset good order (at least that was what I was told). So either tell me a new reason or tell me why order is better?

I don’t know if the reason in that situation is just to preserve order. That may be part of it. I think God wants us to win people over with love instead of violence. To be examples of love like Christ was. I’m sure there were plenty of murders and injustices taking place in the 1st century, but Jesus never went on a rampage (except against the money-changers in the Temple) even though He certainly could have called down an army of angels to force His perfect justice on everyone.

Violence is just not the way God wants us to handle things in the vast majority of cases.

 

[edwest2]

There is more than one way to “fight” unjust laws. Christ didn’t warn us that we might have to start a revolution or guerrilla war…what he did say was:

Also St. Peter tells us:

In other words, follow Christ’s example and be prepared to patiently suffer under unjust laws. If you think our laws are perversions of justice now…just wait a few more years until we’ve gone through a worldwide financial collapse and find ourselves face to face with peak oil’s nasty consequences… In terms of injustice I’d say you ain’t seen nothing yet!

Wow. I don’t know of anyone who can predict the future. You know what? In Detroit, a $2 billion upgrade to an oil refinery has just been completed, and why? They’re going to be getting a lot of raw material from Canada. If you don’t believe the following, that’s fine:

whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/03/17/weekly-address-ending-subsidies-big-oil-companies

Worldwide financial collapse? That’s really amazing. Really amazing.

In the meantime, guess what? Actual answers to our energy needs are being found - today. No predictions needed. Just a bunch of billionaires waiting to find a way to buy in at the highest profit margins possible.

Peace,
Ed

 

[mgoforth]

Wow. I don’t know of anyone who can predict the future. You know what? In Detroit, a $2 billion upgrade to an oil refinery has just been completed, and why? They’re going to be getting a lot of raw material from Canada. If you don’t believe the following, that’s fine:

whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/03/17/weekly-address-ending-subsidies-big-oil-companies

Worldwide financial collapse? That’s really amazing. Really amazing.

In the meantime, guess what? Actual answers to our energy needs are being found - today. No predictions needed. Just a bunch of billionaires waiting to find a way to buy in at the highest profit margins possible.

Peace,
Ed

Sorry, Ed. I respectfully (and completely) disagree. Predicting this is pretty easy if you can admit to yourself that bad outcomes are possible. Most people can’t handle looking at the negative possibilities - only the hope that tomorrow will be exactly like yesterday or better, and I fully understand that.

I hate to tell you, but peak oil is happening already. What did you pay for gas this month? What did you pay for gas 10 years ago? See, peak oil doesn’t mean oil runs dry tomorrow. It just means that you and I won’t be able to afford it tomorrow. And peak oil is a relatively long term problem…long term meaning 5 - 10 years. Financial collapse is the immediate symptom of peak oil, and it will transform our world within the next 5 years.

Financial collapse is also happening as we speak. Did you notice that the Fed has printed a few trillion dollars and Congress has added many trillion more to the national debt…and unemployment is still terrible…housing is still not coming back? Their “fixes” are not working anymore. Have you read anything lately from Europe? Greece is done for (obviously), Spain is falling apart, Italy is next…and as Europe goes they will pull us down with them. It’s all about the debt. Banks and governments are all leveraged to the hilt, and they’re going to explode or implode…no question about it. The system is not “fixable” at this point.

And to get back on topic a little bit, once financial collapse happens I do predict that our country will quickly turn into an ugly place to live, with abusive laws and insane taxes being the new normal with a splash of long-term martial law thrown in for fun.

It’s easy to dismiss all this as lunacy if you’re not looking closely at what’s happening right now…or if you’re getting your facts from the White House website.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Sorry, Ed. I respectfully (and completely) disagree. Predicting this is pretty easy if you can admit to yourself that bad outcomes are possible. Most people can’t handle looking at the negative possibilities - only the hope that tomorrow will be exactly like yesterday or better, and I fully understand that.

I hate to tell you, but peak oil is happening already. What did you pay for gas this month? What did you pay for gas 10 years ago? See, peak oil doesn’t mean oil runs dry tomorrow. It just means that you and I won’t be able to afford it tomorrow. And peak oil is a relatively long term problem…long term meaning 5 - 10 years. Financial collapse is the immediate symptom of peak oil, and it will transform our world within the next 5 years.

Financial collapse is also happening as we speak. Did you notice that the Fed has printed a few trillion dollars and Congress has added many trillion more to the national debt…and unemployment is still terrible…housing is still not coming back? Their “fixes” are not working anymore. Have you read anything lately from Europe? Greece is done for (obviously), Spain is falling apart, Italy is next…and as Europe goes they will pull us down with them. It’s all about the debt. Banks and governments are all leveraged to the hilt, and they’re going to explode or implode…no question about it. The system is not “fixable” at this point.

And to get back on topic a little bit, once financial collapse happens I do predict that our country will quickly turn into an ugly place to live, with abusive laws and insane taxes being the new normal with a splash of long-term martial law thrown in for fun.

It’s easy to dismiss all this as lunacy if you’re not looking closely at what’s happening right now…or if you’re getting your facts from the White House website.

Relax. oil shale is on the way. Add to that, the fact that the US is a major, and inexpesnive, source for natural gas. Provided we continue to work on alterate energy sources. Our future is a secure as it ever has been.

As for europe, it’s the EU’s plan to run the european nations for the sake of bond holders thats in trouble. Europe itself has been through much harder times. They’ll endure this as well. Who knows, maybe the French will set up the quillotine, again. A bas le un pour cent!

 

[mgoforth]

Relax. oil shale is on the way.

:banghead::doh2: EROEI - Google and read.

Add to that, the fact that the US is a major, and inexpesnive, source for natural gas. Provided we continue to work on alterate energy sources. Our future is a secure as it ever has been.

Where did you find a car that runs on natural gas?

As for europe, it’s the EU’s plan…

And that’s where you lost me. The EU has a plan?? Could have fooled me. I guess letting the PIIGS slip into total anarchy is step 1. What’s step 2 again?