why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

[Patrick_Murebil]

SLOW DOWN AGAIN!

Hi Patrick,
It seems as if things are getting UN-CHRISTIAN again. Sorry about that!

Thanks for replying to my efforts on question 1!
Let me try to clarify again (at the risk of boring you)
• I humbly submit that if God did not see fit to give us more detail on the Creation Story, who am I to fill in the missing details?
• I get the impression that no matter what I say, you won’t accept it, because you don’t want to. (hope I am wrong!)
• Can I try to repeat it better? Gen 1 and 2 clearly give us 6 literal days of creation (OTHERWISE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT IT MEANS BY SAYING THE FIRST **DAY**’! etc), followed by a literal seventh day, set aside by God for the benefit of mankind. Moses repeats God’s words on stone and tells us to REMEMBER (PERHAPS REMEMBER’ MEANS FORGET’ IN YOUR LANGUAGE?) the same literal Sabbath day, BECAUSE GOD HAD CREATED THE EARTH IN 6 LITERAL DAYS, AND RESTED ON THE LITERAL 7TH DAY. • Question: Can it be plainer than that, and yet you can’t see? I suspect the problem lies much deeper than that, since we keep going around in circles... • I once saw an amazing sight – a HUGE bulldozer bashing down a 100 year old double story building with ease – WOW! But suddenly I thought: ANY FOOL CAN DESTROY A BUILDING, GIVEN THE RIGHT TOOLS. BUT NOT EVERYBODY CAN BUILD A BUILDING, EVEN WITH THE RIGHT TOOLS! • Replace building’ with BIBLE’, and the same applies – The Bible was a hidden’ book for over 1000 years in the DARK AGES; hidden in Latin, hidden by the church `to protect doctrines’. The Reformation suddenly brought the Bible in the open, and ordinary Christians suddenly discovered Bible Truths that contradicted their Church beliefs! The Bible was listed under the ``Index of Prohibited Books’’ by Pope Paul IV in 1599, and Archbishop Adolphus broke up the printing establishments of Gutenberg and Schoeffer. We know that some Bible Translators were burnt at the stake in England for their efforts. But the Bible spread like wildfire. To stem the tide, two Catholic theologians, Richard Simon and Dr. Alexander Geddes started HIGHER CRITICISM in 1678, which ripped the heart out of the Scriptures by questioning the plainest teachings on history and origins in the Bible. Moses’ writings became mythology, and faith was destroyed. Combined with German RATIONALISM, the Bible’s power was neutralized. Today most cathedrals and churches in Europe are empty on Sundays, and Protestant churches have followed the same downward trend, losing all faith in the Bible as God’s Word.
• Higher Criticism has done the following to the Bible: Take a A STUNNINGLY BEAUTIFUL ROSE, delicate, balanced, perfumed, beautiful colours – RIP THE PETALS OFF! CRUSH IT INTO A PULP! ANALYZE IN A TEST TUBE! RESULT – A WORK OF ART HAS BEEN REDUCED TO A FEW ELEMENTS…

Patrick, I am trying to understand WHY we can’t really talk to each other. It is obvious everybody on this forum is desperate to get rid of the Biblical Sabbath. Let me try one more time:
• You worship/pray to SAINTS, BECAUSE YOUR CHURCH HAS DECLARED THEM HOLY.
• WE WORSHIP GOD ON SATURDAY, BECAUSE GOD DECLARED IT HOLY!

Acts 4:19: ``But Peter and John answered and said to them, `Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge.’’

God bless,

Friedrich

Hi Friedrich, I appreciate the time you spent above explaining why you believe the creation story is literal.

You ask me why we can’t really talk with each other, and yet when I tried to approach this dialog in an ordered fashion way back somewhere in this thread, you told someone that you didn’t see the point of wasting your time wading through a discussion only to reach a point you knew was coming.

And now in the midst of all this commotion you want to dialog. You tell me why we can’t talk.

So to cut through all the wading and wasting of time, and to be consistent with the OP of this thread, I asked 6 Questions.

What you wrote above is your view as to why the creation story is about literal 24 hour days. But it does not answer Question 1 of my 6 Questions. Here is Question 1:

1. If you believe that each day of the creation story is a literal 24 hour period, how do you explain there being morning and evening for 3 days before the sun and moon were created?

If there is any SDA reading this who will even make the effort to address my 6 Questions, I believe it will be you…the other’s are not helping you with this obviously.

So back the Question 1.

Also, we do not worship saints…you are completely wrong about that and I don’t know where you get that. We do not worship saints. We worship God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

God bless all!!!

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Thank you very much Realcatholicgk!! I needed that.

You have done well disciplining me and fulfilling dj’s request to you…you are something else!!!

And where is the: “I will never will do it again?”

 

[Marsha_Adams]

There is nothing to learn in this post; except to show the world one more reason why I would never in a million years become a Catholic. Maybe you have been eating some of Martha’s garlic.

Prot:

Your last two posts, show that since you have no legitimate response to Pat’s questions so you resort to* ad hominem* attacks. I’m sorry my garlic joke offended you so badly, but clearly since it did you have used it as a convenient excuse to avoid answering the questions at hand.

Marsha

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

1. Any decent theologian would tell you that according to Paul everything since the resurrection and ascension of Christ is the last days.
2. It certainly is the last days for those who die between now and the judgment day.
3. If the Sabbath is a test for you here and now then it is a test and this is the last days for you.
4. Revelation indicates that the Sabbath will be the test at the close of time:

Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

This verse echoes the 4th commandment from the “OT.”

And this reveals the center of the problem.

Nowhere in Revelation is it indicated that the sabbath/saturday will be the test at the close of time…nowhere. And if it were, it would easily be provided in answer to my Questions 5&6.

Revelation 14:7 echoes nothing.

Revelation 14:7 PROCLAIMS our need to fear God and give glory to HIM, the CREATOR of all that surrounds us.

The 3rd/4th commandment of the 10 commandments is the echo of the Creator. It is God’s gift to us in this busy world. It was made for us, we were not made for it.

It echoes our need to rest and remember God who is the CREATOR of all that surrounds us.

It echoes our need to remember the life that God gave us when He created us. The life intended for us before sin entered the world.

It is the 4th commandment which is the echo of the Creator and His Creation.

By saying that the proclamation of Revelation 14:7 is an echo of the 4th commandment, is to make the gift more important than the Giver.

God bless all!!!

 

[happilycatholic]

Tanya, I have to stand at yous side and say AMEN! Now don’t "Hit me!"

**This thread is strange. People not wanting to discuss, just argue over and over the same points. **

Hi Rob! You know I love you!

You so funny…

I thought I caused a big ruckus on this thread, whew! This is getting scary

 

[happilycatholic]

So far, Catholics = 6, P101 = Big fat zip.

That was levity, don’t anyone get mad, k?

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

And where is the: “I will never will do it again?”

You are sooooo thorough my friend!!! Ok…I will pray to never do it again…never is a hard word to live up to…but a good word to live up to in this case I believe.

And at the risk of sounding like a baby again…oh what the heck…we’re friends…cross my heart, hope for pie, stick a needle in my eye

Are we good now?

God bless all!!!

 

[djconklin]

Revelation 14:7 echoes nothing.

Experts in the field disagree with you. For example:

Treasury of Scripture Knowledge links it with Exd 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

blueletterbible.org/study/tsk/tsk.cfm?b=Rev&c=14&v=7&t=KJV

Note that it says both texts say “made heaven and earth, the sea.” John is pointing back to the 4th commandment.

You should be able to talk to any expert in the field of literature who deals with echoes and find that out. In some cases it only takes one word, in others just a reference to the same idea works.

By saying that the proclamation of Revelation 14:7 is an echo of the 4th commandment, is to make the gift more important than the Giver.

Not even close. Both point to the Creatopr. John would be appalled if he knew that you thought that from his book.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Experts in the field disagree with you. For example:

Treasury of Scripture Knowledge links it with Exd 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

blueletterbible.org/study/tsk/tsk.cfm?b=Rev&c=14&v=7&t=KJV

Note that it says both texts say “made heaven and earth, the sea.” John is pointing back to the 4th commandment.

Read that chapter again. John is not pointing back to the 4th commandment. He is pointing UP to God the Creator, to Whom we owe our loyalty and fidelity. That happens over and over and over and over in many many many places throughout the Bible,… the 4th commandment being one of those places, but not the only one, and certainly not the most important one.

Jesus life, death, resurrection, ascension, and ministry as our High Priest is.

You should be able to talk to any expert in the field of literature who deals with echoes and find that out. In some cases it only takes one word, in others just a reference to the same idea works.

Not even close. Both point to the Creatopr. John would be appalled if he knew that you thought that from his book.

John would not be appalled at me because of what you said. But perhaps you are appalled at me.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I have just 6 Questions for you:

And I would ask the SDAs to answer the following questions with scripture only. Forget the Catholic Catechism, forget the Sunday Mirror, and Forget the writings of Ellen G. White.

So from scripture alone…

1. If you believe that each day of the creation story is a literal 24 hour period, how do you explain there being morning and evening for 3 days before the sun and moon were created?
2. Since there is no command by God in the creation story to Adam and Eve to keep holy the sabbath day, what does the 7th day of creation mean to you in the context of the creation story?
3. From the time of creation and for the next 10 plus generations of people on earth, why is there no mention of the sabbath until the time of Moses?
4. In Jesus teaching regarding the Law and Him being the fulfilment of the Law in Matthew chapters 5-6, why does he not teach about the importance of the sabbath/saturday?
5. In all of the approximately 57 times that sabbath/saturday is mentioned in the New Testament, why is there no teaching, mention, or hint that the 7th day sabbath/saturday must be kept?
6. In all of the approximately 57 times that sabbath/saturday is mentioned in the New Testament, why is there no teaching about how important the sabbath/saturday will be as a test of fidelity to God at the end of time?

 

[djconklin]

Read again and more slowly:

“You should be able to talk to any expert in the field of literature who deals with echoes and find that out. In some cases it only takes one word, in others just a reference to the same idea works.”

I’ve worked intensely on literature for the past 6 years and I’ve learned more than a few things along the way.

And I would ask the SDAs to answer the following questions with scripture only. Forget the Catholic Catechism, forget the Sunday Mirror, and Forget the writings of Ellen G. White.

I never use Ellen G. White, or those other sources on questions of doctrine. Your constraint of “Scripture only” is un-biblical.

 

[happilycatholic]

Srsly, the answers?

Somebody, please.

Do I need to fast until we get the answers? Kidding.

No really, where are the answers.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Read again and more slowly:

“You should be able to talk to any expert in the field of literature who deals with echoes and find that out. In some cases it only takes one word, in others just a reference to the same idea works.”

I’ve worked intensely on literature for the past 6 years and I’ve learned more than a few things along the way.

So you are saying that out of all the magnificent visions that John had of Jesus being worshiped in heaven as The Lamb of God, The High Priest of our salvation, and John’s call to fear God and give glory to the Creator…all of that glory and praise is an echo, a “reflection and reverberation of the true original sound and source”, which is the 4th commandment to rest on saturday?

I see what John is proclaiming, and what the sabbath proclaimed, as pointing to the Ultimate Reality which is God. But neither John’s proclamation of the Glory of God as Creator, nor the proclamation of the sabbath to rest and remember God the Creator, are the Ultimate Realities.

And perhaps I’m not understanding what you are saying, but I’m willing to try again to hear you.

I never use Ellen G. White, or those other sources on questions of doctrine. Your constraint of “Scripture only” is un-biblical.

So you never use Ellen G. White.
… you never use those other sources
… And…
using “Scripture only”, with scriptures being the only things in the Bible… is un-biblical? Now I must admit that I have never heard that one before.

God bless all!!!

 

[Protestant101]

I have just 6 Questions for you:

And I would ask the SDAs to answer the following questions with scripture only. Forget the Catholic Catechism, forget the Sunday Mirror, and Forget the writings of Ellen G. White.

So from scripture alone…

1. If you believe that each day of the creation story is a literal 24 hour period, how do you explain there being morning and evening for 3 days before the sun and moon were created?
2. Since there is no command by God in the creation story to Adam and Eve to keep holy the sabbath day, what does the 7th day of creation mean to you in the context of the creation story?
3. From the time of creation and for the next 10 plus generations of people on earth, why is there no mention of the sabbath until the time of Moses?
4. In Jesus teaching regarding the Law and Him being the fulfilment of the Law in Matthew chapters 5-6, why does he not teach about the importance of the sabbath/saturday?
5. In all of the approximately 57 times that sabbath/saturday is mentioned in the New Testament, why is there no teaching, mention, or hint that the 7th day sabbath/saturday must be kept?
6. In all of the approximately 57 times that sabbath/saturday is mentioned in the New Testament, why is there no teaching about how important the sabbath/saturday will be as a test of fidelity to God at the end of time?

Patrick; djconklin has been giving you some excellent answers from scripture - which you are attaching your own, personal interpretations to. You are not even echoing official Catholic teachings on the book of Genesis.

It is very common for Bible writers to “echo” one another’s language and grammar, many OT & NT verses do indeed use similar language - and in many of those cases it is shown to be without any collaboration with one another - thus proving how the Spirit gives the same message to different people, in different places and times, without any of those people collaborating on a given point.

If Revelation uses similar language and grammar to that of the 4th commandment, in the OT, who are you to question the Bible? I have decided that a response to your questions is warranted, but my response will be in my own way and my own time. I will not be dictated to by the filthy insults and accusations coming forth from so called “Christians” here.

And by the way, all 6 of your “questions” are based upon atleast one false, unBiblical premise. I thought you said “Bible only?” It actually looks like your “questions” are scripted, that is, you have not thought them through very well; and are getting them from other sources.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

And his name would be? Was it too hard to read?

Sure, if your interested St. Jerome a staut Catholic, who transliterated the Greek and Hebrew texts of the bible into the “Vulgate” latin. You are aware that the Catholic church gave the world the canon of the bible? and your King James VERSION of the bible is missing 7 of the canonnized books.****

St. Jerome is the Catholic that you are trying so hard to translate your new theology from his own transliteralisation. Yet you are arguing against him 1700 years later? Besides this, your new SDA sabbath theology was invented in the 18th century but was never taught prior to your founder invented it. You cant hold to the old testament Sabbath because to practice these rites and ordinances of the Law of Moses; well lets just say their is no more temple in Jerusalem, and if you drive to your saturday bible study thinking your keeping the sabbath, well I am sorry to say you have already broken the true Sabbath.

So do you deny SDA’s pass judgement on Catholics and other Christians for not following the Sabbath according to the new SDA standards of a sabbath? I payed you the courteousy of anwering your questions, can you deny this passing of judgement or claim it is SDA teaching?

A side note, St. Jerome has a wonderful commentary of Paul’s eschatology teaching, I would highly recommend it.

Peace.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

You are sooooo thorough my friend!!! Ok…I will pray to never do it again…never is a hard word to live up to…but a good word to live up to in this case I believe.

And at the risk of sounding like a baby again…oh what the heck…we’re friends…cross my heart, hope for pie, stick a needle in my eye
Are we good now?

God bless all!!!

**

Pat, let me check OK?

Hey djconklin,

If you have been paying attention I think that Pat made one of the most sincere, heartfelt, touching, apologies that I personally have ever heard on this site. He indeed seems truly contrite for his offense. Do you accept his apology in the spirit it was given?
If so, I will contact Prot 101 to arrange for absolution (This was his thread after all).
Actually, I think Prot 101 may be forming his own religion. All the secrets etc. That is what you cultist do when you break off from the parent cult isn’t it? He will make some kind of “branch” thingy of his cult to continue to share his identify with the tree, the SDA, right? Or do you think he just kidding about leaving this site?

Anyway let me know soonest. Pat has been on his knees awaiting your forgiveness. Yea, I know it is the Sabbath, By the power granted to me, I give you permission to type enough words to let Pat get off his knees today. He has to be ready for the real Sabbath on Sunday! I don’t want him to have to craw to Mass, Again! **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

So far, Catholics = 6, P101 = Big fat zip.

That was levity, don’t anyone get mad, k?

**Now why would anyone get mad? How could they? You do realize that SDAs have a great sense of humor! think it is their 14th or 15th Fundamental Beliefs. It is right before or after, "You will pretend to read and understand the Bible and not tell about the “white” beliefs! "

Remember people make jokes about their beliefs all the time. Like their pretending to not follow Betty White. When everyone knos that they do! It is Betty they follow, isn’t it? If I am not mistaken again? I think the Mormons follow Beatrice Arthur, but I may have heard that wrong! . I know us Catholic guys have a thing for Rue McClanahan, she reminds us of Mary Magelain before she met Jesus! Anyway, any group that wants to attempt to explain how the sun rose and set three days before God even made them must have a great sense of humor! I mean, who would believe that?

God Bless**

 

[Protestant101]

**If so, I will contact Prot 101 to arrange for absolution (This was his thread after all). **
**Actually, I think Prot 101 may be forming his own religion. All the secrets etc. That is what you cultist do when you break off from the parent cult isn’t it? **** **

No contact is wanted from anyone who posts such filth to others in the name of God as you have. The jabberwocky, hokum and insults you have supplied here are indefensible. I am a dedicated Church member, and would never in a million years join your cult. You and all your partners in crime here make me sick.

 

[djconklin]

Like their pretending to not follow Betty White. When everyone knos that they do!

Everybody also knows that what everybody knows ain’t so. I try going to the source instead of lying about them.

"Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never [sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what ‘Sister White Said’ —‘Sister White said this,’ and ‘Sister White said that,’ and ‘Sister White said the other thing’. But say, ‘Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.’ Spalding and Magan Collection

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
And his name would be? Was it too hard to read?

Sure, if your interested St. Jerome a staut Catholic, who transliterated the Greek and Hebrew texts of the bible into the “Vulgate” latin.

Heard of him; I haven’t seen where he said anything about Col. 2:16-7–why don’t you tell us? Why all the propaganda instead? Is it too hard to give your sources?

Here’s some of mine:

Dunn, James D. G. The Epistles to the Colossians and to Philemon. A Commentary on the Greek Text (Eerdmans, 1996)
_______ The ‘Body’ in Colossians, To Tell the Mystery: Essays on New Testament Eschatology in Honor of Robert H. Gundry. Edited by Thomas E. Schmidt and Moises Silva. (JSOT, 1994)
Furnish, Victor Paul Colossians, Epistle to the, Anchor Bible Dictionary. Vol. 1, David Noel Freedman, Editor in Chief (Doubleday, 1992)
Goppelt, Leonhard <poma, posis, poton, potos, TDNT. Vol. 6 (Eerdmans, 1968): 145-60.
Hasel, Gerhard F. Sabbath, Anchor Bible Dictionary. Vol. 5: 849-56. (Doubleday, 1992)
Hayes, Holly Diane Colossians 2:6-19, Interpretation 49 (1995): 285-8.
Hultgren, Arland J. Colossians, The Deutero-Pauline Letters: Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, 1-2 Timothy, Titus. Proclamation Commentaries: Gerhard Krodel, editor. (Fortress Press, 1993)
Johnson, Jr., S. Lewis Studies in the Epistle to the Colossians, Part VIII: The Paralysis of Legalism, Bibliotheca Sacra 120/478 (April 63): 109-16.
Ladd, George Eldon A Theology of the New Testament. Revised Edition, edited by Donald A. Hagner (Eerdmans, 1974, reprinted 1994)
Liddell, Henry George and Scott, Robert A Greek-English Lexicon. (Oxford, 1992 impression)
Lightfoot, J. B. Saint Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and to Philemon. (Macmillan, 1892)
Lightfoot, J. B. The Colossian Heresy, Conflict at Colossae. (SBL, 1973): pages 13-59.
Lincoln, A. T. From Sabbath to Lord’s Day: A Biblical and Theological Perspective, From Sabbath to Lord’s Day: A Biblical, Historical, and Theological Investigation. Edited by D. A. Carson (Academie Books, 1982)
Lohse, Eduard sabbaton, paraskeun, TDNT. (Eerdmans, 1971): 7:1-35.
_______ Colossians and Philemon. Hermenia Series. Translated by William R. Poehlmann and Robert J. Karris (Fortress Press, ET 1971)
MacDonald, Margaret Y. Colossians and Ephesians. Sacra Pagina series, Vol. 17 (Liturgical Press, 2000)
Martin, Troy Pagan and Judeo-Christian Time-Keeping Schemes in Gal 4.10 and Col 2.16, New Testament Studies 42 (1996): 105-119.
_______ By Philosophy and Empty Deceit: Colossians as a Response to a Cynic Critique. (Sheffield Academic Press, 1996)
_______ But Let Everyone Discern the Body of Christ (Colossians 2:17), Journal of Biblical Literature 114/2 (1995): 249-255.
Mussner, Franz The Epistle to the Colossians, in Gnilka, Joachim and Franz Mussner The Epistle to the Philippians and the Epistle to the Colossians. (Herder and Herder, 1971)
Nichol, Francis D. Answers to Objections. (Review and Herald Publishing, 1952)
Patzia, Arthur G. Ephesians, Colossians, Philemon. New International Biblical Commentary (Hendrickson, 1990)
Paulien Jon, www2.andrews.edu/~jonp/colossians2.htm An Exegetical Overview of Col 2:13-17; With Implications for SDA Understanding.
Rienecker, Fritz A Linguistic Key to the Greek New Testament. (Regency Reference Library, 1980)
Rogers, Patrick V. Colossians. (Michael Glazier, Inc., 1980)
Rutherfurd, John St Paul’s Epistles to Colossae and Laodicea. (T. & T. Clark, 1908)
Schulz, Seigfried skia , TDNT. Vol. 7 (Eerdmans, 1971): 394-400.
Stockhausen, Carol L. Letters in the Pauline Tradition: Ephesians, Colossians, I Timothy, II Timothy and Titus. Message of Biblical Spirituality, Volume 13 (Michael Glazier, 1989)
Thayer, Joseph Henry A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament. 4th Edition (T. & T. Clark, 1951)
Thompson, G. H. P. The Letters of Paul to the Ephesians, to the Colossians and to Philemon. Cambridge Bible Commentary (Cambridge, 1967)
Thornton, T. C. G. Jewish New Moon Festivals, Galatians 4:3-11 and Colossians 2: 16, Journal of Theological Studies 40 (1989): 97-100.
Thurston, Bonnie Bowman Reading Colossians, Ephesians, and 2 Thessalonians: A Literary and Theological Commentary. (Crossroad, 1995)
Vincent, Marvin R. Word Studies in New Testament. Vol. 3 (Charles Scribner’s, 1924)
Vine, W. E. The Expanded Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. (Bethany House, 1984)
von Speyr, Adrienne The Letter to the Colossians. Translated by Michael J. Miller (Ignatius Press, 1998)
Wagatsuma, Saizou Christ’s Ministry Today and Shadow: The Exegesis of Col 2:16-17. (Andrews University, 1982)
Wall, Robert W. Colossians & Philemon. The IVP New Testament Commentary Series (IVP Press, )
Weiss, Herold von Paul and the Judging of Days, ZNW 86:3-4 (1995): 137-53.

Note that some were published by Catholic presses and Dr. Weiss teaches at a Catholic college/university next to Notre Dame. I’m not afraid to consider outside sources and dug deep for three years stuying nothing but these two verses.