why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

[djconklin]

Sometimes, I hope that an Adventist might care about what God says, without spinning it to mean something completely different, but that seldom happens either.

I never, ever do.

 

[djconklin]

We follow the teaching of Jesus, guided by the HS, while you wander around following Ellen White and other lost prophets.

I follow Jesus, I never have followed Ellen White,* there are no “other lost prophets” in the SDA church–that’s another lie told ab’t the Adventists because the truth hurts too much.

*"Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never [sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what ‘Sister White Said’ —‘Sister White said this,’ and ‘Sister White said that,’ and ‘Sister White said the other thing’. But say, ‘Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.’ Spalding and Magan Collection

 

[Protestant101]

You are sooooo thorough my friend!!! Ok…I will pray to never do it again…never is a hard word to live up to…but a good word to live up to in this case I believe.

And at the risk of sounding like a baby again…oh what the heck…we’re friends…cross my heart, hope for pie, stick a needle in my eye

Are we good now?

God bless all!!!

Howdy Patrick; I know you wrote the above to another forum member, but it might do some good for me to reply to this anyways, as it relates to a principle we too often lose sight of in our disagreements and discussions.

My answer to that question would be "yes. We are ‘good.’ People need to understand better what it means to disagree, yet still reflect a certain “unity” in still trying to have a Christian attitude towards the person - even if we hate the doctrine!! This is one of the good things I see your Church as trying to teach the world. You appear to be that kind of person and I just wanted you to know that no matter what you believe: “we are good.” I would change your flat tire just as quick as I would my mother’s.

I have decided to leave this thread, and reply to your 6 questions here. I need a way to concentrate on the subjects they engender, and felt that a separate topic would be best. I am brutally honest in my responses there; but don’t take it personally. I am trying to address ideas that I really object to, and although it’s hard for me to not be perfect, (LOL) I can admit that not all my responses here are. In this new thread; I will automatically put members on Ignore if they choose to use the so called “humor” on me there, as they did here. Hope to see you there…

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Pat:

I’m always the last to know anything, but on the off chance that you don’t already know, Prot 101 has started a new thread allegedly to answer your questions.

Marsha

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Pat:

I’m always the last to know anything, but on the off chance that you don’t already know, Prot 101 has started a new thread allegedly to answer your questions.

Marsha

**Hi Dear,
I actually fell asleep trying to read Prot101’s Post it ran 5 pages? maybe 6? He is nothing if not boring! **

 

[djconklin]

If you fell asleep reading a post, it had nothing to do with the post itself.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Patrick; djconklin has been giving you some excellent answers from scripture - which you are attaching your own, personal interpretations to. You are not even echoing official Catholic teachings on the book of Genesis.

Hi Protestant101,
Where are those excellent answers from scripture? Please cite the post number(s) of this thread where they are because I have missed them if they are there. I have read his echoes of Dr. Jones’ thoughts, but I have not seen any scriptural answers to my questions…so please let me know where they are.

It is very common for Bible writers to “echo” one another’s language and grammar, many OT & NT verses do indeed use similar language - and in many of those cases it is shown to be without any collaboration with one another - thus proving how the Spirit gives the same message to different people, in different places and times, without any of those people collaborating on a given point.

Just to clear up any apparent misunderstanding…I agree completely with this point.

If Revelation uses similar language and grammar to that of the 4th commandment, in the OT, who are you to question the Bible? I have decided that a response to your questions is warranted, but my response will be in my own way and my own time. I will not be dictated to by the filthy insults and accusations coming forth from so called “Christians” here.

I am not questioning the Bible…I am questioning SDAs on their beliefs which they say are taken from the Bible.

I await your resonse and I undestand that you do not want to be dictated to…but you are accusing me of making filthy insults and accusations, which I find completely false. Show me where I have made filthy insults and accusations to you, or any othe SDA on this thread and I will apologize. But do not accuse me of doing something to you that I have not done.

And by the way, all 6 of your “questions” are based upon atleast one false, unBiblical premise. I thought you said “Bible only?” It actually looks like your “questions” are scripted, that is, you have not thought them through very well; and are getting them from other sources.

And what exactly is that one false unBiblical premise? I did request that you use the Bible only in answering my 6 Questions, because SDAs have repeatedly said that all of their beliefs are based on, and found in the Bible. It is the SDAs who keep saying that worshiping God on Sunday is not in the Bible and saying “show me in the Bible where it says to worship God on Sunday”.

My 6 Questions are my six questions. If they are not thought through very well as you claim…well that is my deficiency. They are not from any other source. They are pretty standard questions that most reasonable people would pose to someone claiming a Biblical srcriptural belief in those areas, in my opinion. If you cannot answer them…well…that is your deficiency.

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Failure to understand the concept isn’t a failure on our part.

Pat’s questions have serious flaws built into them that cannot be remedied.

Exactly what are the serious flaws “built into” my questions?

I ask you 6 Questions to prove from the Bible what SDAs claim is a belief they hold because it can be proved from the Bible, the eternal bound to keep holy the sabbath/saturday.

The only thing I read in the Bible are the scriptures…not Dr. Jones, or Ellen G. White.

Perhaps if you cannot answer my 6 Questions regarding your “Biblical belief”, it is not my questions that are “flawed”.

God bless all!!!

 

[guanophore]

My comment was directed at the one individual who was being rude to the Adventists on this forum. Where did I say I didn’t want any contact from any Catholics? Another one of your fish stories coming up I guess…

No contact is wanted from anyone who posts such filth to others in the name of God as you have. The jabberwocky, hokum and insults you have supplied here are indefensible. I am a dedicated Church member, and would never in a million years join your cult. You and all your partners in crime here make me sick.

Ok, I agree, the poster does come across rude. However, all the Catholics here are telling you that the Lord’s Day is Sunday, and that the Church has the authority to observe the first day of the week in honor of the Resurrection. I thought that made us “partners in crime”.

You are also violating the forum rules by referring to the Catholic faith as a cult. You are free to come here and post your questions and engage in dialogue,but you are required to respect our faith, even if you don’t agree with it. I think that rule cuts both ways, so when you are treated rudely you should report the post using that little red and white triangle at the upper right of the post. The mods will then give correction to the poster who is out of order.

This is a forum so that sincere persons can ask genuine questions about the Catholic faith. You have asked the questions, you don’t accept the answers. This is your perogative.

My question still stands. Why are you here? If you believe Catholicism is a cult, and you think those who adhere to it are “partners in crime” why waste your time here?

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Howdy Patrick; I know you wrote the above to another forum member, but it might do some good for me to reply to this anyways, as it relates to a principle we too often lose sight of in our disagreements and discussions.

My answer to that question would be "yes. We are ‘good.’ People need to understand better what it means to disagree, yet still reflect a certain “unity” in still trying to have a Christian attitude towards the person - even if we hate the doctrine!! This is one of the good things I see your Church as trying to teach the world. You appear to be that kind of person and I just wanted you to know that no matter what you believe: “we are good.” I would change your flat tire just as quick as I would my mother’s.

Hi Protestant101,
Well…I’m glad to hear that we are “good”, but I didn’t think we were “bad”. I just do not understand why you accused me of making filthy insults and accusations to you?

You wouldn’t have to change the tire all by yourself…I would be more than willing to work with you an that!! But thanks!

I have decided to leave this thread, and reply to your 6 questions here. I need a way to concentrate on the subjects they engender, and felt that a separate topic would be best. I am brutally honest in my responses there; but don’t take it personally. I am trying to address ideas that I really object to, and although it’s hard for me to not be perfect, (LOL) I can admit that not all my responses here are. In this new thread; I will automatically put members on Ignore if they choose to use the so called “humor” on me there, as they did here. Hope to see you there…

I have not yet gone to the other thread to see what you wrote.

Actually if what you posted on the new thread are answers to my 6 Qustions, I would prefer, and appreciate, that you post those answers on this thread since this is where the discussion has been going on, and this thread is where those answers will fit into the context of the discussion as far as what we have dicussed up to this point and what will we discuss from this point forward. I am glad that you are providing scriptural answers to my questions for discussion. My questions were asked on page 49, and it’s about 10 pages later.

I think it would be too confusing for people to follow the discussion here by jumping around to different threads. So for the benefit of all the people who are following, reading and participating in this thread, I ask that you copy your answers here!

Thanks in advance for that!!

God bless all!!!

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by Protestant101
And by the way, all 6 of your “questions” are based upon atleast one false, unBiblical premise. I thought you said “Bible only?” It actually looks like your “questions” are scripted, that is, you have not thought them through very well; and are getting them from other sources.

And what exactly is that one false unBiblical premise?

For the 4th or 5th time (this time in different words): you are looking for a legalistic text that explicitly states something. That isn’t the way the Hebrew mind worked. They would read the story of God bringing Eve to Adam (which we still do today when the father walks the bride down the isle) and Adam saying “You are now bone of my bone …” and they knew that this meant that marriage (although the term isn’t used) is to between a man and a woman, not man and man, etc…

The only thing I read in the Bible are the scriptures…not Dr. Jones, or Ellen G. White.

I didn’t mention Ellen White so why bring her up? This is a red-herring argument.

It is legitimate to use outside sources to understand the Bible–like archaeology, geography, geology, etc… The work done by Dr. William Mead Jones directly undercuts one of your assumptions (that the Sabbath wasn’t known before Sinai) which is why you wish to ignore it.

 

[djconklin]

You are also violating the forum rules by referring to the Catholic faith as a cult.

He is reacting in frustration and anger over how he is being treated here. Lots of name-calling and labeling and false remarks being stated about SDA’s and when you try to explain that 2+2=4 some posters want to know why you didn’t use something else entirely (especially when they have a false conception about what they are talking about).

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

For the 4th or 5th time (this time in different words): you are looking for a legalistic text that explicitly states something. That isn’t the way the Hebrew mind worked. They would read the story of God bringing Eve to Adam (which we still do today when the father walks the bride down the isle) and Adam saying “You are now bone of my bone …” and they knew that this meant that marriage (although the term isn’t used) is to between a man and a woman, not man and man, etc…

For the 10th or 11th time, my questions regarding the creation story were not about Adam and Eve. They are about the creation of the sun on the 4th day, and why no commandment from God to Adam and Eve to observe the 7th day sabbath/saturday.

I didn’t mention Ellen White so why bring her up? This is a red-herring argument.

You did mention Dr. Jones…so my argument may be either red or a herring, but not both since you did not mention Mrs. White.

It is legitimate to use outside sources to understand the Bible–like archaeology, geography, geology, etc…

Unless that outside source is the Catholic Chruch evidently.

The work done by Dr. William Mead Jones directly undercuts one of your assumptions (that the Sabbath wasn’t known before Sinai) which is why you wish to ignore it.

According to his opinion and the story he creates that you agree with.

But since I cannot find the sabbath mentioned anywhere in the OT before the time of Moses, let alone commanded by God to “keep” at creation or anytime before Moses time…my assumption is not an assumption, it is an observation.

If it is Biblical, then show me from the Bible.

I’m going to assume at this point that you do not have any scriptures to support your beliefs that are reflected in my 6 Questions, so I will not keep asking you to answer them.

I’ll wait for other SDAs who believe their beliefs are from the Bible and the Bible alone.

God bless all!!!

 

[djconklin]

For the 10th or 11th time, my questions regarding the creation story were not about Adam and Eve.

[Actually, not even once. I was using what is called an analogy.

Originally Posted by djconklin
It is legitimate to use outside sources to understand the Bible–like archaeology, geography, geology, etc…

Unless that outside source is the Catholic Chruch evidently.
You really don’t know what the SDA’s teach do you?!? They show how the Catholic church (never heard of a chruch) claimed the power to change the sabbath to Sunday.

Originally Posted by djconklin
The work done by Dr. William Mead Jones directly undercuts one of your assumptions (that the Sabbath wasn’t known before Sinai) which is why you wish to ignore it.

According to his opinion and the story he creates that you agree with.

He didn’t state an opinion, he produced the facts. I always agree with cold, hard facts.

But since I cannot find the sabbath mentioned anywhere in the OT before the time of Moses,

Where is the proof that the Sabbath had to be mentioned b4 Moses? Who made up this rule? Secondly, it is mentioned in the creation account on the seventh day. Thirdly, you have to use the qualifier “b4 the time of Moses” because you know that the Sabbath was kept a month b4 it was given in the 10C. So, where’d it come from?

let alone commanded by God to “keep” at creation or anytime before Moses time…

My analogy dealt with that.

 

[happilycatholic]

RealCatholic and Pat:

Well, the above quote pretty much destroys any hope that SDAs have a sense of humor. Remember how out of sorts Prot got over my garlic joke.

So let’s take stock of what we have learned so far.

1. SDAs have no sense of humor.
2. SDAs (at least those present on this thread) cannot or will not answer Pats questions.
3. SDAs claim Sola Scriptura, but when we try to hold them to it, they tell us it is unbiblical.

Any questions?

Marsha

Marsha:

All that back and forth You and I and Brandon did and we didn’t get that upset. I know Brandon wanted to strangle me a couple of times, but you guys were still very charitable with me (as I know I’m hard to deal with).

I don’t understand why on earth Prot101 can’t answer the questions and has such thin skin about it.

Can you offer any insight here? (not meant sarcasticly, but literally).

~Tonya

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I have decided to leave this thread, and reply to your 6 questions here. I need a way to concentrate on the subjects they engender, and felt that a separate topic would be best. I am brutally honest in my responses there; but don’t take it personally. I am trying to address ideas that I really object to, and although it’s hard for me to not be perfect, (LOL) I can admit that not all my responses here are. In this new thread; I will automatically put members on Ignore if they choose to use the so called “humor” on me there, as they did here. Hope to see you there…

Hi Protestant101,

Well I just went to the URL you posted above and you are answering questions from back on page 30 of this thread. They are different from the 6 Questions now being asked by me on this thread. Those old questions of mine, from page 30 of this thread are probably better dealt with on that new thread you started and linked to above.

But here are my 6 Questions from page 49 of this thread which should remain on this thread and be answered on this thread:

**So, I would ask everyone on this thread to allow the SDAs a little time and breathing room to answer a few questions. And I would ask the SDAs to answer the following questions with scripture only. Forget the Catholic Catechism, forget the Sunday Mirror, and Forget the writings of Ellen G. White.

So from scripture alone…

1. If you believe that each day of the creation story is a literal 24 hour period, how do you explain there being morning and evening for 3 days before the sun and moon were created?
2. Since there is no command by God in the creation story to Adam and Eve to keep holy the sabbath day, what does the 7th day of creation mean to you in the context of the creation story?
3. From the time of creation and for the next 10 plus generations of people on earth, why is there no mention of the sabbath until the time of Moses?
4. In Jesus teaching regarding the Law and Him being the fulfilment of the Law in Matthew chapters 5-6, why does he not teach about the importance of the sabbath/saturday?
5. In all of the approximately 57 times that sabbath/saturday is mentioned in the New Testament, why is there no teaching, mention, or hint that the 7th day sabbath/saturday must be kept?
6. In all of the approximately 57 times that sabbath/saturday is mentioned in the New Testament, why is there no teaching about how important the sabbath/saturday will be as a test of fidelity to God at the end of time?

Please show in the scriptures and the scriptures alone the answers to these questions. I know a very interesting story has been created by Ellen G. White that answers these questions, and yet I cannot find this same interesting story in the scriptures.**

 

[djconklin]

They are different from the 6 Questions now being asked by me on this thread.

Ah! Bait and switch!

Forget the Catholic Catechism, forget the Sunday Mirror, and Forget the writings of Ellen G. White.

I haven’t used any of the above–this is a red-herring argument.

I know a very interesting story has been created by Ellen G. White that answers these questions,

Where is it? Why the vague innuendo?

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Ah! Bait and switch!

There is no bait and switch…I had 6 Questions back on page 30 of this thread dealing with the topic of discussion back there.

They were never answered.

19 pages later on page 49 of this thread…I asked another 6 Questions dealing with the topic of discussion at that point in time on this thread.

They have yet to be answered after 11+ pages.

You are more than welcome however to answer my questions from pages 30 and 49…but if your past posts are any indication of the future action…I still do not expect any answers from you…so I’ll wait for other SDAs.

I haven’t used any of the above–this is a red-herring argument.

No not from the first set of questions on page 30, but you did reference Dr. Jones in trying to answer one of my questions from the second set.

Where is it? Why the vague innuendo?

Read “The Great Controversy” by Ellen G. White.

God bless all!!!

 

[djconklin]

I had 6 Questions back on page 30 of this thread dealing with the topic of discussion back there.

They were never answered.

19 pages later on page 49 of this thread…I asked another 6 Questions

If you ask one set and then ask another that’s called bait-and-switch.

Originally Posted by djconklin
I haven’t used any of the above–this is a red-herring argument

No not from the first set of questions on page 30, but you did reference Dr. Jones in trying to answer one of my questions from the second set.

Dr., Jones isn’t one of the one’s you listed–my point stands.

Originally Posted by djconklin
Where is it? Why the vague innuendo?

Read “The Great Controversy” by Ellen G. White.

My, my I have to read a whole book to find a fantasy!

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Marsha:

All that back and forth You and I and Brandon did and we didn’t get that upset. I know Brandon wanted to strangle me a couple of times, but you guys were still very charitable with me (as I know I’m hard to deal with).

I don’t understand why on earth Prot101 can’t answer the questions and has such thin skin about it.

Can you offer any insight here? (not meant sarcasticly, but literally).

~Tonya

Tonya:

The reason that the SDAs are getting so testy is that they cannot answer Pat’s questions from the Bible Alone.

Their theology demands that the Sabbath was observed from Creation through to the present day. But using the Bible alone they can’t show that it was. As has been pointed out when God rested on the seventh day of creation week He never said that Adam and Eve should do so. God also didn’t say that Adam and Eve should worship on that day either. Then the Sabbath is never mentioned again for about 2000 years until after the Exodus. It was then that the Israelites were required rest upon the seventh day in memory of the Creation.

Exodus 20:8-11

8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Additionally it needs to be asked what does “to keep it holy” mean? In the Hebrew, it means to “set apart” or “consecrate”. How was the Sabbath set apart in the commandment? It was set apart from all other days by refraining to work on it. The commandment itself does not require that on the seventh day you pray or go to church, it only requires that you abstain from rest and not work. (Purely as an aside, the command also requires that you work the other six days, so it isn’t sufficient to rest on the seventh day, if you haven’t worked on the other six you have violated the commandment.)

In fact, although under the commandment the Israelites were required to rest upon the seventh day, only the men were required to go to the temple and only four times a year on major holy days and sometimes those holy days didn’t even fall on the seventh day. This complicates the SDA theology further because they try to connect the Revelation call to worship to the Sabbath commandment and it can’t be done because neither the Genesis reference to the seventh day rest nor the commandment require worship.

Then when you bring the gentile Christians into the discussion in the New Testament, it gets still worse for the SDAs because the Church council at Jerusalem never enjoined Sabbath keeping upon them.

When you have an entire denomination whose name and whole theology demands worship on the seventh day, and then you prove that seventh day worship was never required it just naturally makes them irritable.

Marsha