why is sunday instead of saturday the sabboth?

[Gabriel_of_12]

Heard of him; I haven’t seen where he said anything about Col. 2:16-7–why don’t you tell us? Why all the propaganda instead? Is it too hard to give your sources?

**Gabriel of 12;**Propaganda? You asked for a name? now your asking for sources? and accusing me of propaganda? From what mind set do you dialogue? I cannot read your mind sir, only what you put on the page.

Are you informing me that your sources agree with your interpretation of Col.2:16-17 has nothing to do with the Sabbath and only eating and drinking? and Pauls eschatology teaching of the shadows to come?

Tell you what; I dont have all day to list my sources here for you, so as not to try and pride myself by listing sources unneccesarily. So I will leave you with two;

For an easy read for you that will contain most of the topics we discussed in short about Pauls teachings of the body of Jesus Christ, the end times from vs. 17 when false teachers will come as they did in Colasse,"do not let anyone pass judgement on you about the sabbath"when false teachers will judge the true Christians about the sabbath. Try the New Jerome Biblical Commentary, Prentice Hall, edited by Raymond E. Brown, S.S. Joseph A. Fitzmeyer, S.J., Roland E. Murphy, O.Carm.

Finally get a Catechism of the Catholic church, their you will find more resources for the true apostolic understanding and teachings of Jesus Christ.

Now was Paul correct in saying that there will come "false teachers and false teachings that pass judgement on the Apostolic church regarding the sabbath, among other things as to festivals, food and drink, as does the SDA teaches by "passing judgement on Catholic christians, and non catholics as a mark of the beast because we do not follow your founder and her new gospel teaching about the sabbath 18 hundred years later after Jesus Christ already established his revelation and teachings to his apostles.

So are you going to answer my question? Do SDA’s teach by "passing judgement upon Catholics and other chrisitans for not keeping the sabbath according to SDA’s standard of keeping the sabbath, and teach that those who dont honor the SDA’s sabbath have the mark of the beast? is this your teaching fulfilling Pauls teaching today or not?

Peace be with you

 

[djconklin]

The reason that the SDAs are getting so testy is that they cannot answer Pat’s questions from the Bible Alone.

No, its the labelling and name-calling (even in the very so subtle form) that drives people nuts. Secondly, it is the use of articifical, un-biblical standards that causes problems with having an honest, open dialogue.

 

[djconklin]

Heard of him; I haven’t seen where he said anything about Col. 2:16-7–why don’t you tell us? Why all the propaganda instead? Is it too hard to give your sources?

Gabriel of 12;Propaganda? You asked for a name? now your asking for sources? and accusing me of propaganda?

In case you haven’t heard it is extremely difficult to look things up when you only have a name. The usual way of refering to something is to give the name of the source and where they said what you said they said.

Would you prefer the term “tripe” instead? How about “garbage”?

Are you informing me that your sources agree with your interpretation of Col.2:16-17 has nothing to do with the Sabbath and only eating and drinking? and Pauls eschatology teaching of the shadows to come?

Combined yes. You have to read all of them and pull all of the info together–a liitle here, a little there.

Tell you what; I dont have all day to list my sources here for you, so as not to try and pride myself by listing sources unneccesarily.

It’s not hard to post sources used in one’s study as I have already shown.

For instance on the meaning of “with respect to” I used a number of sources, among which were:

1. Liddell, Henry George and Scott, Robert A Greek-English Lexicon. (Oxford, 1992 impression): page 761.
2. Bauer, Walter, Ardnt, William F. and Gingrich, F. Wilbur A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. Second Edition, revised and augmented by F. Wilbur Gingrich and Frederick W. Danker (University of Chicago, 1979): page 342.
3. Woodhouse, Sidney C. English-Greek Dictionary. (Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1971 reprint): page 263.
4. Dana, H. E. and Mantey, Julius R. A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament. (Macmillan, 1955): page 248.
5. Thayer, Joseph Henry A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament. 4th Edition (T. & T. Clark, 1951): page 275.
6. Lohse, Eduard Colossians and Philemon. Hermenia Series. Translated by William R. Poehlmann and Robert J. Karris (Fortress Press, ET 1971): page 115, footnote #8.

“do not let anyone pass judgement on you about the sabbath”

I’ve already shown that Paul isn’t talking about the Sabbath. In fact, one could drop the names of the days completely and not lose the meaning.

Try the New Jerome Biblical Commentary, Prentice Hall, edited by Raymond E. Brown, S.S. Joseph A. Fitzmeyer, S.J., Roland E. Murphy, O.Carm.

Finally get a Catechism of the Catholic church, their you will find more resources for the true apostolic understanding and teachings of Jesus Christ.Is there one online? How did you determine that it is true to what the Apostles taught? Since most Christians as late as the 5th century were still keeping the Sabbath (except those in Rome and Alexandria) it is most likely that they were following what the apostles taught and not the customs of today.

So are you going to answer my question? Do SDA’s teach by "passing judgement upon Catholics and other chrisitans for not keeping the sabbath according to SDA’s standard of keeping the sabbath, and teach that those who dont honor the SDA’s sabbath have the mark of the beast? is this your teaching fulfilling Pauls teaching today or not?

SDA’s do not judge in the biblical sense. Secondly, SDA’s try to follow what the Bible says about keeping the Sabbath, your last question makes no sense and finally this has nothing to do with Col. 2:16-7–can we stay on topic?

 

[djconklin]

(Purely as an aside, the command also requires that you work the other six days, so it isn’t sufficient to rest on the seventh day, if you haven’t worked on the other six you have violated the commandment.)

You are correct. SDA pastors note the same.

This complicates the SDA theology further because they try to connect the Revelation call to worship to the Sabbath commandment and it can’t be done because neither the Genesis reference to the seventh day rest nor the commandment require worship.

Revelation echoes the 4th commandment. Lev. 23:3 shows that they understood the Sabbath to be a “holy convocation.”

Then when you bring the gentile Christians into the discussion in the New Testament, it gets still worse for the SDAs because the Church council at Jerusalem never enjoined Sabbath keeping upon them.

The council at Jersualem only dealt wiith those subjects where there was a controversy. They also didn’t mention not to covet, not to steal, not bow down to idols, not to take God’s name in vain, etc…

 

[Realcatholicgk]

&c…&c…&c…
Combined yes. You have to read all of them and pull all of the info together–a liitle here, a little there.

&c…&c…&c…

**Hi dj, How are you?

Hey, this sounds like a neat game can I play?

Col. 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Mt 7:23 Jesus also said, “making the word of God of no effect through your tradition, which you have handed down. And many such things you do”

Luke 24:25 Then Jesus said to them, "How foolish you are! You’re so slow to believe everything the prophets said!

So I read all of them, put them all together, pull some of the information from here and there and I get:

“Do not let anyone judge you with regards to the Sabbath. God said this tradition have no effect on you. They are foolish!”

Hey this is fun. and with the bible having 1,189 Chapters; 31,101 Verses; and 783,137 Word YOU can make it say anything you want. Boy that is Cool! One question won’t God get pissed at you, just like us Christians do for you doing that?

Get real and do it right. Pullign stuff “together” make it your own opinion, and we know how much that is worth to God. Who commanded things, like eatting His real flesh and drinking His real blood! Not being Catholic, good luck with that! **

 

[djconklin]

Hi dj, How are you?

Chronic, habitual cough and the docs can’t do anything about it.

Hey, this sounds like a neat game can I play?

I don’t play games, so you’ll have to play by yourself.

Col. 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

I see you are still using a flawed translation–have fun trying to find the truth with that.

So, what we have is A – the bold
“with regard to,” or more literally “in that portion of”
B - the italicized portion.

So, Paul isn’t talking about A, nor B, he is talking about where A and B overlap.

Get real and do it right.

I did; spent 3 years studying Col. 2:16-7 and you have yet to look at, and interact with, the study I have repeatedly pointed you to.​

BTW, go to the bathroom and wash your mouth out with soap for using foul language. Should have learned not to do that years ago as a kid.​

Since you take the Bible literally, why don’t you drink His blood? Only the priest do that Mass. What will God say to you when you aren’t consistent?

FYI, the word is “pulling” and there’s only one ‘t’ in the word “eating.”

 

[guanophore]

I was using what is called an analogy.

Everyone has the freedom to embrace whatever faith practices commend themselves to him. If you wish to base yours on analogy, this is your perogative.

You really don’t know what the SDA’s teach do you?!?

No. That is one reason I have been reading this thread.

They show how the Catholic church (never heard of a chruch) claimed the power to change the sabbath to Sunday.

The Church has the Power given to her by Christ. Since we believe Christ instituted the Sabbath, and He is Lord of it, and that it was made for man, we believe that He has the power also to fulfill the Sabbath.

He didn’t state an opinion, he produced the facts. I always agree with cold, hard facts.

Is that like “analogy”?

Where is the proof that the Sabbath had to be mentioned b4 Moses? Who made up this rule?

It seemed to me that you were making it up! You seemed to be saying that the Sabbath was to be observed from it’s creation, and was separate, above and beyond the Law of Moses. Then when we read the scriptures, we find that there is no commandment to “observe” the Sabbath until Moses. This is why we consider the specifics about it’s observance part of the Law of Moses.

Secondly, it is mentioned in the creation account on the seventh day.

Did I miss out on your explanation of how it is there is a “day and night” without a sun an moon? What distinguishes “evening and morning” without a sun and a moon?

Thirdly, you have to use the qualifier “b4 the time of Moses” because you know that the Sabbath was kept a month b4 it was given in the 10C. So, where’d it come from?

I think this is an excellent question! Personally, I don’t know that it was, but I will take your word for it that you have evidence of this.

My analogy dealt with that.

Keeping of the sabbath by “analogy”. Interesting!

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Since you take the Bible literally, why don’t you drink His blood? Only the priest do that Mass.

We do drink His blood. At every communion service. Who told you only the priest does that?

 

[djconklin]

We do drink His blood. At every communion service. Who told you only the priest does that?

The masses I went to only the priest drank.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

The masses I went to only the priest drank.

Even at those Masses where only the priest received the cup, the communicants still ate Christ’s flesh and drank His blood, because every crumb of every host contains Jesus in His entirety, body and blood, soul and divinity. The Eucharist is the Living Glorified Christ, you cannot separate His flesh from His Blood. That is why it is referred to as an unbloody sacrifice.

Still, at Mass we do receive both the host and the cup.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
I was using what is called an analogy.

Everyone has the freedom to embrace whatever faith practices commend themselves to him. If you wish to base yours on analogy, this is your perogative.

The first isn’t biblical. The use of analogy is a way of reasoning, as when Christ noted that Solomon in all his glory wasn’t arrayed as beautifully as the flowers in the field. It isn’t a base for faith.

Originally Posted by djconklin
He didn’t state an opinion, he produced the facts. I always agree with cold, hard facts.

Is that like “analogy”?

Nope. Analogy is reasoning, But reason has to be based on facts. Check your local college to see if they have classes on logic.

Originally Posted by djconklin
Where is the proof that the Sabbath had to be mentioned b4 Moses? Who made up this rule?

It seemed to me that you were making it up! You seemed to be saying that the Sabbath was to be observed from it’s creation, and was separate, above and beyond the Law of Moses. Then when we read the scriptures, we find that there is no commandment to “observe” the Sabbath until Moses. This is why we consider the specifics about it’s observance part of the Law of Moses.

1. I didn’t make anything up. It is the requirement of a specific Scriptural injunction that is made up.
2. Since we know that the Sabbath was observed b4 the law of God was given at Sinai it stands to reason that it was known b4 that time. The question is how far back can we go? We also know that the Sabbath was known at the time the languages were created at the Tower of Babel–long b4 there ever was a Jew, which directly undercuts the idea that the Sabbath was only for the Jews (are the Jews the only ones who need to know that they were created by the hand of God? Reading the news indicates otherwise.).
3. Looking for a specific commandment is legalistic in nature and it ignores the Semitic mindset. They reasoned from facts. So, when they read that God brought Eve to Adam and married them they knew what constituted marriage…Therefore, marriage is between a man and a woman, not two men or two women.

Originally Posted by djconklin
Secondly, it is mentioned in the creation account on the seventh day.

Did I miss out on your explanation of how it is there is a “day and night” without a sun an moon? What distinguishes “evening and morning” without a sun and a moon?

Yes, you missed it. That was covered in a previous post. Those who oppose the creation as a 7 day event haven’t offered any explanation.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
The masses I went to only the priest drank.

Even at those Masses where only the priest received the cup, the communicants still ate Christ’s flesh and drank His blood, because every crumb of every host contains Jesus in His entirety, body and blood, soul and divinity. The Eucharist is the Living Glorified Christ, you cannot separate His flesh from His Blood. That is why it is referred to as an unbloody sacrifice.

Still, at Mass we do receive both the host and the cup.

Hmm, eating the body = eating the body and drinking the blood. Very interesting. Whereas, in Protestant churches we do both–a more consistent approach.

BTW, when Christ instituted the rite at the Last Supper He separated the body from the blood. Who is man to set it aside and do something different? Does the clay tell the potter how it will be?

 

[Marsha_Adams]

BTW, when Christ instituted the rite at the Last Supper He separated the body from the blood. Who is man to set it aside and do something different? Does the clay tell the potter how it will be?

No He didn’t. He merely referred to them individually. Did you think He was giving the disciples a DEAD body to remember? You must understand the semetic mindset. Blood was life. If the blood was separate from the body then the body was dead. Jesus did not want them to celebrate His dead body, rather He wanted them to remember the Risen Lord.

 

[djconklin]

No He didn’t. He merely referred to them individually. Did you think He was giving the disciples a DEAD body to remember? You must understand the semetic mindset. Blood was life. If the blood was separate from the body then the body was dead. Jesus did not want them to celebrate His dead body, rather He wanted them to remember the Risen Lord.

I don’t know who told you that, but you need to stop listening to them about what the bible says.

1. Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
2. Matthew 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

He didn’t merely refer to the body and the blood; He gave it to them. Secondly, He was alive at the time–there was no dead body. See also,

John 6:55-56 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I don’t know who told you that, but you need to stop listening to them about what the bible says.

1. Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
2. Matthew 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

He didn’t merely refer to the body and the blood; He gave it to them. Secondly, He was alive at the time–there was no dead body. See also,

John 6:55-56 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Hi Marsha,

Now how come he can give you scriptures in your discussion, but I cannot get one scripture from any of them to answer even one of my 6 Questions?

It must be your charm!!

Have a very Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!!

God bless all!!!

 

[happilycatholic]

Hi Marsha,

Now how come he can give you scriptures in your discussion, but I cannot get one scripture from any of them to answer even one of my 6 Questions?

It must be your charm!!

Have a very Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!!

God bless all!!!

Theory of “fight or flight” - a biological response of animals in acute stress.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Peace Be With You.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Hi Marsha,

Now how come he can give you scriptures in your discussion, but I cannot get one scripture from any of them to answer even one of my 6 Questions?

It must be your charm!!

Have a very Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!!

God bless all!!!

Pat:

What good does it do if he provides texts but distorts them so badly that they aren’t intelligible?

Marsha

 

[inJESUS]

I haven’t read all this thread but i still do not see the sabbath observance mentioned except in the Mosaic Law. Wasn’t it important in God’s eyes before Moses

 

[djconklin]

What good does it do if he provides texts but distorts them so badly that they aren’t intelligible?

And where are the facts that prove I distorted the biblical texts and made them unintelligible?

 

[djconklin]

I haven’t read all this thread but i still do not see the sabbath observance mentioned except in the Mosaic Law. Wasn’t it important in God’s eyes before Moses

Ditto with the other nine.

When Moses told Pharoah that the people of Israel had to go out into the desert to celebrate a feast–which one was it? Where’s the command to do so?​

InJesus: note how many of the posters here are defending the Bible on the the other thread.