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FaithBuild18
Guest
The state is not legitimate. Christ is King. Give me back my King or I will bring down this arrogant, prideful, blasphemous concept of self-rule.
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C
ConstantineTG
Guest
But if not for taxes, what then? Every man for himself?
M
MarkInOregon
Guest
If this is true–then you will have bigger problems than not collecting your social security–i.e. the country will have collapsed and we will be living in chaos.
Peace,
Mark
M
MarkInOregon
Guest
As a parent who pays Catholic school tuition as well as property taxes which fund the public school–I do not believe I have been robbed. I made a choice. Now sure I’d like to get property tax releif while I pay for private school but still it was my choice.
I however do still receive a benefit from the public school. I am much better off as a citizen if other peoples children are educated–it helps make them better citizens.
To say that you get services does cut it in my opinion. How did Bill get his money–he certainly didn’t earn it a vacuum. How did he get the raw materials for his product and get his goods to market? On public roads or roads he built himself? Why does his money have value? Is it because of the stability of our government or the intrinsic value of the paper he is using? How are his goods and life protected? By the stability of our society and the police and our military and our courts–or does he do it himself? Did Bill take his employees as apprentices when they were small children and educate and train them–or were they first educated in public schools?
A stable society with good infra structure and well educated and trained workers is good for all of us and we all benefit from it. The problem is that many americans today — who live in a society that was built on progressive taxation, unions and a strong middle class, and good schools – take the gains acheived for workers as a given and think those gains can never be lost. The incessant cries to repeal taxation and label it theft will simply take us back to the good ole days of robber barrons and shopping at the company store. We now seem to be in a race to bottom with a dwindling middle class and I don’t think that bodes well for our nation. Just remember most of us will not be Mr. Potter but rather those living in Mr. Potters slums just squeaking our a living.
Peace,
Mark
B
Bill_7154
Guest
No intent on picking on you personally, but the government has DESTROYED our monitary system and made us the #1 country in debt out of every country in the world. Things were not always this way.
Prior to ‘using money’ people bartered for things. A chicken for fixing my door, whatever. By having a standard currency it makes things easier. But our standard was Gold. And this worked. In part it worked because there was a limited supply of it, rocks woudn’t work for example.
But then the government took us off the gold standard (you used to be able to take a paper dollar into the bank and exchange it for a dollars worth of gold. Then we went to money backed by silver, same concept.
Then the government changed to a complete ‘fiat’ currency. That means that the paper you and I call money is just a piece of paper. And there are printing machines that print out more and more of it each year. What this does is make everyone except the extremely wealthy be worth less and less each and every year because the printing of money causes INFLATION.
And inflation is the LARGEST tax that we pay. Greater than fed or state income taxes, greater than sales taxes, etc. Eventually it will be worthless. Sometime before that people will be taking stacks of money to the store to buy a loaf of bread. This is the direction we are headed.
The reason a house used to cost 20K in the 20’s and now costs 420K is because of this, becaue the gov’t took us off the gold and silver standards and starting printing money en mass willy nilly. So the value of every dollar went down. So what most people consider ‘rising prices’ is in actuality a reflection of the devaluation of the dollar. It’s worth less and less every year so you need more and more of it every year to buy the same things.
Go take a look at a chart that shows prices and how they changed when the gov’t took us off hte gold standard. What you will see is prices for good remaining pretty much constant for like the 100 years before we came off the gold standard and then a HUGE increase in prices year after year after year ever since we came off the gold standard.
It is why all the classes (exept the uber wealthy that are in a class of their own, above the upper class by leaps and bounds so much so that it is ridiculous the disparity between the degree’s of wealth between these 2 ‘classes’). And this is because the uber wealthy control the banks, the ‘federal reserve bank’ is not some government owned bank. The name might (and arguably was meant to) lead you to believe this. But private bankers print this money and then ‘lend’ it to the government, with an interest rate attached of course.
Guess who pays the interest? And it’s printed by the billions and trillions and has been for decades. Bet you didn’t learn this in school. Fed reserve banks are private banks, the owners essentially control everything since they control the money supply.
God Bless,
Bill
M
Mickey_Finn
Guest
Well, there’s a couple of good questions. Our government gets it’s legitamacy from us. ie we elect them. But then, we take out other governments. *Because they are “Rogue”. *So, I would say the ultimate legitimacy comes from power.
Which leads us to paying taxes. Our constitution ( that pesky document) gives congress the right to levy taxes for the common good etc. You can find legal ways of escaping many of the taxes levied. But, if you do it illegally. Then, it’s you who are the thief. Prison awaits. Which brings us back to power.
Religiously speaking. (Ἀπόδοτε οὖν τὰ Καίσαρος Καίσαρι καὶ τὰ τοῦ Θεοῦ τῷ Θεῷ Matthew 22:21).
ATB
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Mickey_Finn
Guest
Pretty much. The war of all, against all. Civilization may have it’s costs. But, it’s still the best deal going.
ATB
A
Allegra
Guest
That sounds like a normal expense to me. What I don’t support is ciphoning off tax money for one’s own business or personal gain.
R
Reep
Guest
Yes you had a choice: 1) You could pay private tuition and get robbed; or 2) just get robbed (your property taken by force with no choice where it is spent)
Yeah, now its “You didn’t build that business!” What a sad joke. I built my business with my own money. With no thanks whatever to the government. I drive to work on roads that I pay for in taxes. My building is “protected” (not very well) by cops I pay for with my taxes. My education was paid for by me, my parents and the taxes they and I have paid for during two lifetimes. If I didn’t have to use the fed’s phoney play money, I would shop and bank with real money (gold and silver), no thanks to the government.
All these services could have been provided more cheaply by businesses and other cooperative entities–better and cheaper than by government.
B
Bezant
Guest
Did you vote for them, Bill?
B
Bezant
Guest
A notion that sounds nice to some people until they actually have to eat their words.
M
MarkInOregon
Guest
I already told you I don’t think I am getting robbed. I get fire protection, police protection, emergency medical care to the house, and an educated citizenry, among other things for my tax dollars. Your saying that I am doesn’t make it so. Further my money isn’t mine but Gods–given to me to be used to further his kingdom. I am required to render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars–whatever that may be.
Reep,
No one is saying that you didn’t build your business but your inability to see that you didn’t build it in vacuum is a problem. That you can’t see the benefits you have reaped from living in this country at this particular time is a problem. Study history. There is a good chance you would not have had an opportunity to build that business in many societies or even at a different time in our history. Lets move you to a different time in history and see if you are still so disparaging of how well your building is protected. You appear to be blinded by your anger so I will leave it at this. If these services were actually being provided, if workers were actually being treated fairly, etc.-- there would be no aggitation for these services and regulations. It is the fact that we as individuals often fail to do what we should that has led to the government providing these services and the, at times, burdensome and often unnecessary regulations but again this is the fruit of the failure of many business owners to self-regulate. I don’t think our problem is government, per se, or taxation but corruption and greed and corruption and greed don’tt exist only in the government–they exist in private enterprise too–and it is the corruption and greed that drives up our costs.
Peace,
Mark
M
manualman
Guest
Government taxation for the common good is obviously not mere “theft” or Jesus would never have told people they are obligated to pay it.
That said, governments CAN become corrupt and establish patterns that plunder the wealth of the people they are intended to serve for the benefit of those in power and their allies. In my opinion we are very far into this latter pattern of government behavior today due to the excessive concentration of power and wealth in the US federal government. For some reason, our federal system has a pathological inability to abolish or downsize unproductive departments and agencies. Sheesh, even the TVA still clings to existence almost a century after the depression that spawned it! It’s been almost 30 years since the federal government had even a symbolic downsizing and even those that Reagan abolished have mostly magically resurrected themselves (for example the SCS has returned as the NRCS).
For Trek fans, the Borg are already here. They landed in Washington DC a century ago and have been assimilating us ever since. Resistance is futile…
That said, governments CAN become corrupt and establish patterns that plunder the wealth of the people they are intended to serve for the benefit of those in power and their allies. In my opinion we are very far into this latter pattern of government behavior today due to the excessive concentration of power and wealth in the US federal government. For some reason, our federal system has a pathological inability to abolish or downsize unproductive departments and agencies. Sheesh, even the TVA still clings to existence almost a century after the depression that spawned it! It’s been almost 30 years since the federal government had even a symbolic downsizing and even those that Reagan abolished have mostly magically resurrected themselves (for example the SCS has returned as the NRCS).
For Trek fans, the Borg are already here. They landed in Washington DC a century ago and have been assimilating us ever since. Resistance is futile…
R
Reep
Guest
Between my “problems,” my “blindness” and my “anger” I must really be a mess.
Of course I am grateful that I live in a civilized society, with the highest standard of living in history, at a time when I could raise four children without any of them dying of childhood diseases that would have taken them a hundred years ago.
We need an ordered society, but I do not accept the trend toward more government aggression and coercion. Liberty is a good than permits the exercise of free will and virtue. If I can propose a way of accomplishing a needed service without using governmental force, I will do it.
One example: Safety & security is a primary and urgent need. Government meets this need (not always very well): 1) by forcing us to pay taxes and 2) hiring police to keep us safe.
Why must it be this way, when we can protect the safety of our families and communities better and cheaper by private security companies? It’s really not much of a stretch considering that private security now employs three times the number of state and local law enforcement officers. Private security can be extended to everyone–even in the poorest area of town–all funded by voluntary subscribers and a much-needed return to a restitution-based justice system. I can’t lay it all out in this space, but I’d be glad to provide resources. Or check out this link to my blog.
I know we have different views on the role of government. Here in Missouri, there tends to be less tolerance of government interference in people’s lives. Most of us like it that way. Even though we own & carry firearms, buy and shoot-off fireworks and pump our own gasoline, we still feel quite safe. Not that I mind if folks out your way like things a bit more controlled. Peace to you too.
J
JIB
Guest
Just so everyone is aware: the government has no legal duty to keep anyone safe. If you call 911 and report an ax murderer at your door the cops have no legal responsibility to show up and do anything.
X
xzereus
Guest
Take this example. The government informs the population that an extra 1% income tax will be assessed to fund abortions. In one scenario, if the government were REALLY a provider of services, we would have the opportunity to “opt out” of this abortion tax. In our current system, however, we would have absolutely no option. We have to pay the abortion tax. Of course, we are actually paying for things we disagree with every day.
…
Another example. You’re living in the middle ages. Your town has no formal government, yet you’re doing pretty well since it’s a small town. One day a group of men show up. They tell you that they’re going to help your town out and will protect the innocent and bring justice to the criminals. They tell you that every person will be assessed a tax on their purchases. It’s not optional.
Either way, you decide to go along with it. When you brother is murdered, you’re relieved to know that the men are there to take care of everything. They spend weeks looking for the murderer but don’t end up finding anyone. At least they tried, you think. Soon, the men up the charge, and you begin to be taxed on your income as well as your purchases.
Large groups of the men begin to disappear and come back with money and belongings which you can only assume come from other villages. They offer to charge people less and pay them large amounts of money if they’ll come with them to raid other villages in order to give them more fair forms of government. Many go and many die, but the men consistently come back with more money.
You finally get that horse you’ve been saving up for. This will really help the transportation of your goods and will allow you to sell to a larger market. Luckily for you, you paid the men to build some roads to the next town. Still, you think–you paid them a lot of money to get those roads built and you probably could have had them built yourself if you would have just worked with some others. Either way, you load up your wares and take off on your horse. After only a few yards you’re stopped by one of the men. You didn’t register your horse, he says. He tells you that you must pay a large fine for the failure to register on top of the registration fee. You end up having to sell back the horse in order to pay the fine.
…
Does anyone really believe that neither of these is coercive and neither of these is similar to our own government? It really can’t be fairly claimed that we, or the subjects in this story, are given an option when paying taxes. Rather than asking the question, “What is the alternative?” why don’t we just focus on the question at hand? Why is this not coercion at best (theft at worst) and why is the state not illegitimate at best (evil at worst)?
…
Another example. You’re living in the middle ages. Your town has no formal government, yet you’re doing pretty well since it’s a small town. One day a group of men show up. They tell you that they’re going to help your town out and will protect the innocent and bring justice to the criminals. They tell you that every person will be assessed a tax on their purchases. It’s not optional.
Either way, you decide to go along with it. When you brother is murdered, you’re relieved to know that the men are there to take care of everything. They spend weeks looking for the murderer but don’t end up finding anyone. At least they tried, you think. Soon, the men up the charge, and you begin to be taxed on your income as well as your purchases.
Large groups of the men begin to disappear and come back with money and belongings which you can only assume come from other villages. They offer to charge people less and pay them large amounts of money if they’ll come with them to raid other villages in order to give them more fair forms of government. Many go and many die, but the men consistently come back with more money.
You finally get that horse you’ve been saving up for. This will really help the transportation of your goods and will allow you to sell to a larger market. Luckily for you, you paid the men to build some roads to the next town. Still, you think–you paid them a lot of money to get those roads built and you probably could have had them built yourself if you would have just worked with some others. Either way, you load up your wares and take off on your horse. After only a few yards you’re stopped by one of the men. You didn’t register your horse, he says. He tells you that you must pay a large fine for the failure to register on top of the registration fee. You end up having to sell back the horse in order to pay the fine.
…
Does anyone really believe that neither of these is coercive and neither of these is similar to our own government? It really can’t be fairly claimed that we, or the subjects in this story, are given an option when paying taxes. Rather than asking the question, “What is the alternative?” why don’t we just focus on the question at hand? Why is this not coercion at best (theft at worst) and why is the state not illegitimate at best (evil at worst)?
A
austenbosten
Guest
Words not mine
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JIB
Guest
If not taxes, then what?
Well, I pay for my internet myself. I pay for my car too. I pay for lots of things. I don’t know of anything that taxes pay for that wouldn’t be better provided by a market system.
Please don’t post an ignorant retort based on the idea I haven’t thought out the idea of a free society. We’ll have to agree to disagree that people are capable of organizing society based on voluntary interaction.
Well, I pay for my internet myself. I pay for my car too. I pay for lots of things. I don’t know of anything that taxes pay for that wouldn’t be better provided by a market system.
Please don’t post an ignorant retort based on the idea I haven’t thought out the idea of a free society. We’ll have to agree to disagree that people are capable of organizing society based on voluntary interaction.
R
Rence
Guest
Actually, the Catechism and the Bible state that our earthly princes are put into authority by God, and should be obeyed. Give to Caesar…
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