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elts1956
Guest
Well, you have completely twisted my thoughts. Are Simon and Peter not the same person? Is Peter not told by Christ to pasture Christ’s sheep?
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Mickey
Guest
You better read it again.
DECREE XVIII.
We believe that the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each hath wrought; — for when they are separated from their bodies, they depart immediately either to joy, or to sorrow and lamentation; though confessedly neither their enjoyment, nor condemnation are complete. For after the common resurrection, when the soul shall be united with the body, with which it had behaved itself well or ill, each shall receive the completion of either enjoyment or of condemnation forsooth.
And such as though envolved in mortal sins have not departed in despair, but have, while still living in the body, repented, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance — by pouring forth tears, forsooth, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and in fine {in summation ELC} by shewing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbour, and which the Catholic Church hath from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — of these and such like the souls depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from thence, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice availing in the highest degree; which each offereth particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offereth daily for all alike; it being, of course, understood that we know not the time of their release. For that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment we know and believe; but when we know not.
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tdgesq
Guest
Mickey,
And how does that constitute a difference on the level of dogmatic theology between us?
And how does that constitute a difference on the level of dogmatic theology between us?
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catholic1seeks
Guest
I still think it is as simple as the Holy Spirit guiding the Church to follow the structure Jesus had with his Apostles: Peter had primacey over the rest. In essence, there needed to be a person to follow in Peter’s footsteps. One person.
I see three main sources for the matter of
Peter’s successors:
Bible (pointing to the primacey of Peter among the disciples/other Apostles)
Early Church Fathers (recognizing the bishop of Rome continued to serve in Peter’s position)
Common Sense (gives us the idea that the Catholic structure is very similar to that of the N. T., and that the special authority given to Peter does not end with Peter)
And as for these sources, they greatly point
to the Catholic position on authority - the pope.
I see three main sources for the matter of
Peter’s successors:
Bible (pointing to the primacey of Peter among the disciples/other Apostles)
Early Church Fathers (recognizing the bishop of Rome continued to serve in Peter’s position)
Common Sense (gives us the idea that the Catholic structure is very similar to that of the N. T., and that the special authority given to Peter does not end with Peter)
And as for these sources, they greatly point
to the Catholic position on authority - the pope.
I
Ignatios
Guest
First this council appears to be local
Second let me read it for you since you people, your eyes can only see what they had put in your mind.
First this site was published by Catholics Note the link address. So without researching word for word since the RCs are well known with tampering with words, but again for the sake of time will look at it"AS IS".
We believe that the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment,( LOOK AND TELL ME WHERE DO YOU SEE THIRD PLACE OR “PURGATORY” REST OR TORMENT IS GOING TO HELL OR HEAVEN ) according to what each hath wrought; — for when they are separated from their bodies, they depart immediately either to joy, or to sorrow and lamentation;(AGAIN 2 PLACES) though confessedly neither their enjoyment, nor condemnation are complete. For after the common resurrection, when the soul shall be united with the body, with which it had behaved <151> itself well or ill, each shall receive the completion of either enjoyment or of condemnation forsooth.( THIS LEAVES NO ROOM AT ALL WHAT SO EVER FOR PURGATORY)
And such as though envolved in mortal sins have not departed in despair, but have, while still living in the body, repented, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance — by pouring forth tears, forsooth, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and in fine {in summation ELC} by shewing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbour, and which the Catholic Church( THE ORTHODOX CHURCH IS THE TRUE CATHOLIC CHURCH AS YOU SEE HERE) hath from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — of these and such like the souls depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. <<<<<<<<<<( HADES, NOT PURGATORY, UNLESS YOU ARE A RC THEN YOU GO TO PURGATORY UNTILL THE POPE RELEASE YOU FROM THERE WITH AN INDULGENCE,… PEICE OF PAPER) But they are aware of their future release from thence, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers <152> of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice availing in the highest degree; which each offereth particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offereth daily for all alike; it being, of course, understood that we know not the time of their release. For that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment we know and believe; but when we know not.
I wont go through it all it is just a waist of time, I expect from you to do better next time “tdgesq”.
but I must thank you for not halfquoting.:tiphat:
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Ignatios
Guest
steve b:
Now could that be transalated as " None of our business” I think so. biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%202:3-8;&version=49;
And who said it was or was not out of bouds?
show me where did I say that Peter should not ask the LORD for anything, amazing that you infused everthing in there but missed what I am saying and the main clear point, hhhmmm, did you loose your sence of balance???
My point to you was that if the LORD instituted the ministry as defined by the RCC to Peter( in replacement to CHRIST ) then why would Our LORD say to Saint Peter shortly after " none of your business" or “what is it to thee”…I hope that this explanation brought to you some sence of balance.
well lets look at what had been said in the bible concerning this>>> John 2:4 *…“And Jesus said to her, “(A)Woman, (B)what does that have to do with us? (C)My hour has not yet come.” *
Now could that be transalated as " None of our business” I think so. biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%202:3-8;&version=49;
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Ignatios
Guest
If you read what your church teaches concerning the Pugatory and the Holy Orthodox Church of GOD teaches concerning the stae after death, you will see a big diffrence from the “get go” all the way up to the dogmatic theology between us .
For instance the false teaching of “Original Sin” as defined by your church lead you to all kind of errors in which it has something to do with the Purgatory Dogma and the “Limbo”( the Limbo is based on the Original Sin totaly that is), also the Immaculate Conc.( is based on the Original sin also since the Immac. Conc. Idea was to protect the THEOTOKOS from the original Sin guilt) and the Assumption (since she was not born in the original sin she didnt die) .
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Chaldean_Rite
Guest
Btw, did you know your Orthodox Church does not require you to believe in the Assumption?
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Ignatios
Guest
catholic 1seeks:
If your theory is right , then it would have taken one Apostle and one Church, and from there on let that Church do the work to spread it all under the Pope.
If it was only one person then why the Apostles went all over the world and establish Churhcesssssssssssssss and appointed Bishopsssssssssssssssssssssss Over those Churchesssssssssssssssss and told THEMMMMMMMMMMM to “oversee” their work(the Apostles work that is) ???
If your theory is right , then it would have taken one Apostle and one Church, and from there on let that Church do the work to spread it all under the Pope.
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Ignatios
Guest
ChaldeanRite:
but thank you for bringing this one up ChaldeanRite.
I think every Orthodox knows this, what we have instead of the Assumption is the Dormition ( the fall asleep of the Mother of GOD)=her death…and in this commemoration we hold a prayers service that it like the Funeral, because we believe that she died since she was human.
but thank you for bringing this one up ChaldeanRite.
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Dee_Dee_King
Guest
why is the eastern orthodox correct and the oriental not? you both claim to be the true church and both reject the pope. as far as i can tell, there is nothing unique about what makes either church the true church. both of you reject ecumenical councils accepted by the catholic church.
who decides when a council is ecumenical and who decides what constitutes a ecumenical council? somebody visible on earth must preside over the church. it’s unavoidable that there is must be a highest authority in one see if there is any hope for unity.
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catholic1seeks
Guest
agreed.
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tdgesq
Guest
It is local. The Synod of Jerusalem of 1672. What’s your point?
Usually it’s the EO that changes words in counciliar documents to twist them to say what they want. The RC just changes them back to the way they originally read.
Then you disagree with your Orthodox brother here:
No surprise here really. I’ve heard at least 3 different eschatological versions from various Orthodox over the years.
Sure it does. Look at the sentence immediately preceding what you just quoted:
We believe that the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each hath wrought; — for when they are separated from their bodies, they depart immediately either to joy, or to sorrow and lamentation; though confessedly neither their enjoyment, nor condemnation are complete.
They depart immediately to heaven or hell upon death depending upon the deeds they wrought during life. They will not experience the fullness of either state until they are united with their bodies at the final resurrection. As a Catholic I’m not required to reject that explanation. Where does it say Hades/Purgatory will be destroyed at that point?
Well well. So there is a third state called Hades where those who were imperfect during life will be punished due to the sins they committed. Sounds like Purgatory. As for indulgences, they always require good works or a change of inner disposition on the part of the recipient. How could good works and a changed disposition not relieve the punishments of Hades?
Sorry for not meeting your high expectations.
I am a firm believer in making sure quotes give a complete context. Fooling each other by misquoting is a waste of everybody’s time.
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mardukm
Guest
Brother ChaldeanRite,
The imperative to believe in the Assumption for the Orthodox comes from her Tradition, not from an ecclesiastical ruling. There is an imperative to believe it nonetheless.
Blessings,
Marduk
Do you remember Father Ambrose back when the ECF was still called the Eastern Christianity Forum? He said he would withhold the Eucharist from any Orthodox Christian who denied that the Blessed Mother after her death was assumed bodily into heaven.
The imperative to believe in the Assumption for the Orthodox comes from her Tradition, not from an ecclesiastical ruling. There is an imperative to believe it nonetheless.
Blessings,
Marduk
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mardukm
Guest
Brother Ignatios,
Contrary to your belief, the Catholic dogma of the Assumption does not assert that Mary did NOT die. It’s obvious you have not actually bothered to read what the Church herself teaches, but get your understanding from anti-Catholic sources. I urge you to read more about what the Catholic Church ACTUALLY teaches from her own words before you criticize her.
Actually, whenever I find EO criticize the Catholic Church based on wrong information, I see it as a sign of hope, because it demonstrates they/you have not really touched upon what the Catholic Church teaches. It gives me hope also because once you read what the Catholic Church ACTUALLY teaches, instead of depending on second-hand polemic sources from your own Church, then you’ll see the fullness of Truth.
Blessings,
Marduk
Contrary to your belief, the Catholic dogma of the Assumption does not assert that Mary did NOT die. It’s obvious you have not actually bothered to read what the Church herself teaches, but get your understanding from anti-Catholic sources. I urge you to read more about what the Catholic Church ACTUALLY teaches from her own words before you criticize her.
Actually, whenever I find EO criticize the Catholic Church based on wrong information, I see it as a sign of hope, because it demonstrates they/you have not really touched upon what the Catholic Church teaches. It gives me hope also because once you read what the Catholic Church ACTUALLY teaches, instead of depending on second-hand polemic sources from your own Church, then you’ll see the fullness of Truth.
Blessings,
Marduk
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Ignatios
Guest
Dee Dee king:
How far is your church from reaching a union with the Orientals, since when the schism happened, it did between them and the Chalcedonian Churches( Chalcedonians are the Eastern orthodox and the RCC), so they didnt only split from us but from both of us.
but does all Catholics wether Western or Eastern accept ALL the Ecumenical Councils of your RCC as defined by your church???.
NOTE: the 1st EC was done with the consultation of all the concerned bishops but not the Bishop of Rome.
2nd EC was presided over by the bishop of Antioch, whom was in communion with all the bishops except the Bishop of Rome…And the Bishop of Rome and/or all the Western Bishops were not approached or invited or anything at all whatsoever…I tell what go check the history from all sides.
First maybe you have not been updated yourself on the Position of the Orthodox Church from the Oriental, and without going through the history( somehow I feel like I am going to have to explain this to you somewhere down the road) and after the 2 sides met, both agrred on everything, unification is on its way with them , they were not wrong according to their explanations on the Christology. the only thing now it remains is that how we are going to merge the 2 Churches back together.
How far is your church from reaching a union with the Orientals, since when the schism happened, it did between them and the Chalcedonian Churches( Chalcedonians are the Eastern orthodox and the RCC), so they didnt only split from us but from both of us.
We still recognize the first Pope( Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria).
Your OPINION been noted.
We the EO accept ALL the ligitimate ECUMENICAL COUNCILS.
but does all Catholics wether Western or Eastern accept ALL the Ecumenical Councils of your RCC as defined by your church???.
After the schism in your church, it is your Pope.
Prior to the schism in the 1st E.C. it was not clear wether it was a bishop from Spain ( back then Spain was not under the Pope of Rome yet) or the bishop of Antioch according to the history.
NOTE: the 1st EC was done with the consultation of all the concerned bishops but not the Bishop of Rome.
2nd EC was presided over by the bishop of Antioch, whom was in communion with all the bishops except the Bishop of Rome…And the Bishop of Rome and/or all the Western Bishops were not approached or invited or anything at all whatsoever…I tell what go check the history from all sides.
I agree the Eastern Orthodox Churches has the highest authority, that is CHRIST the HEAD of HIS CHURCH the Holy Orthodox Church of GOD that is, and Unity continued between all of us Orthodox Churches of GOD the same way since the beginnig, and it seemed like we didnt need your highest auhtority the Pope that is the head of your church.
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catholic1seeks
Guest
The Catholic is thankful the Orthodox is not Protestant.
The Orthodox is thankful the Catholic is not Protestant.
Let’s be thankful that we’re in good unity with each other. And not say “CHRIST the HEAD of HIS CHURCH the Holy Orthodox Church of GOD”. That sounds too restricted, and though there is one Church, you make it sound exclusive.
That Catholic Church considers E.O. Churches to be in *very *close communion with the Church.
BUT THIS DOESN’T MEAN THERE CAN’T BE A DEBATE! C’MON CATHOLICS WIN:heaven:
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Ignatios
Guest
lol. ok. thats fine . let me explain it to you since you appear that you dont know…Local Councils are bound only to the jurisdiction that it is involved in this council.
I am Orthodox, But I am not from the Holy See of Jerusalem, I am from the Holy See of Antioch, the first throne of Saint Peter, and the first begotten of Saint Peter, and where Saint Peter presided as Bishop"overseer" and the first successor of Saint Peter was the Bishop of Antioch, also Antioch is where christians were first called chruistians, would you like any more info?
It would be nice if you get out of this pre-school mentality, “mine is better then yours” and put some vidences down. are you up to it?
No I dont, I thought by now you would have reaserched what my brother in CHRIST Prodromos was trying to explain to you, but obviously not.
Read the following and please try to comprehend it:
then …
Prodromos earlier:
For in purgatory you may leave and go to heaven before the Second coming and before the Great judgementd day of Christ. or maybe you will stay there after the judgement day.
here is from the an Orthodox council convened for the innovation of Purgatory:
*We the godly, following the truth and turning away from such innovations, confess and accept two places for the souls of the dead, paradise and hell, for the righteous and sinners, as the holy Scripture teaches us. We do not accept a third place, a purgatory, by any means, since neither Scripture nor the holy Fathers have taught us any such thing. However, we believe these two places have many abodes … *
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Ignatios
Guest
…Continued from previous post
STATE is NOT PLACE, here is the Dictionary>>>Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) Pronunciation, noun, adjective, verb, stat·ed, stat·ing.
purgatory (pûrg’utôr"ē) [key][Lat.,=place of purging],
so as we see, it is a Place, lets take a look at similiar words
that it indicates to a “Place” also:
the Word " gymnasium"
gymnasium =“place of exercise,”
dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=gymnasium
Also the word
Stadium=a sports arena, usually oval or horseshoe-shaped, with tiers of seats for spectators.
dictionary.reference.com/browse/stadium
So as we see there is no way around for the RCC to say that it is not a “place” as we see lately that they are trying to get out of it and make sound all good and nice.
So the Bible did not teach of a third place where one would go through( now going to the other parts of the Purgatory,other then praying for the dead )…
Punishment, expiation, atonement, a place to “sit and suffer” through fire untill the satisfaction of GOD !!! etc.
The only place that the Bible speaks of such, is Hell.
And then, we go into the indulgences…where a paper is released from the pope to the family of the departed one so that, they will released in their turn on behalf of the dead so, he can be released from the torment of the purgatory or his days there will be shortened.
Now I said this breifly, there is a lot more involved then this, but this is just to show you, that Pugatory is more then praying for the dead, I suggest on you to go and study more about your Rite and your mother church (RCC).
Besides, why are you contending the Purgatory with us, wouldnt be much more logical and profitable for you to go and contend this with your “Brethren” in the Byzantine Catholic churchesssssss, since they too dont teach the Purgatory.
from an Eastern Catholic website:
…Article V of the Treaty of Brest states “We shall not debate about purgatory…” implying that both sides can agree to disagree on the specifics of what the West calls “Purgatory.”
also later they say(Byzantine Catholics) the folowing:
… Rather than seeing this as a place to “sit and suffer,” the Eastern Fathers of the Church described the Final Theosis as being a journey. While this journey can entail hardships, there are also powerful glimpses of joy.
east2west.org/doctrine.htm
You just refuse to see it, and keep searching for a way to proove the Purgatory.
STATE is NOT PLACE, here is the Dictionary>>>Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) Pronunciation, noun, adjective, verb, stat·ed, stat·ing.
- the condition of a person or thing, as with respect to circumstances or attributes: a state of health.
- the condition of matter with respect to structure, form, constitution, phase, or the like: water in a gaseous state.
- status, rank, or position in life; station: He dresses in a manner befitting his state.
- the style of living befitting a person of wealth and high rank: to travel in state.
- a particular condition of mind or feeling: to be in an excited state.
- an abnormally tense, nervous, or perturbed condition: He’s been in a state since hearing about his brother’s death.
- a particular portion of space, whether of definite or indefinite extent.
- space in general: time and place.
- the specific portion of space normally occupied by anything: The vase is in its place. Every item on the shelf had its place.
- a space, area, or spot, set apart or used for a particular purpose: a place of worship; a place of entertainment.
- any part or spot in a body or surface: a decayed place in a tree.
encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/purgatory
purgatory (pûrg’utôr"ē) [key][Lat.,=place of purging],
so as we see, it is a Place, lets take a look at similiar words
that it indicates to a “Place” also:
the Word " gymnasium"
gymnasium =“place of exercise,”
dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=gymnasium
Also the word
Stadium=a sports arena, usually oval or horseshoe-shaped, with tiers of seats for spectators.
dictionary.reference.com/browse/stadium
So as we see there is no way around for the RCC to say that it is not a “place” as we see lately that they are trying to get out of it and make sound all good and nice.
So the Bible did not teach of a third place where one would go through( now going to the other parts of the Purgatory,other then praying for the dead )…
Punishment, expiation, atonement, a place to “sit and suffer” through fire untill the satisfaction of GOD !!! etc.
The only place that the Bible speaks of such, is Hell.
And then, we go into the indulgences…where a paper is released from the pope to the family of the departed one so that, they will released in their turn on behalf of the dead so, he can be released from the torment of the purgatory or his days there will be shortened.
Now I said this breifly, there is a lot more involved then this, but this is just to show you, that Pugatory is more then praying for the dead, I suggest on you to go and study more about your Rite and your mother church (RCC).
Besides, why are you contending the Purgatory with us, wouldnt be much more logical and profitable for you to go and contend this with your “Brethren” in the Byzantine Catholic churchesssssss, since they too dont teach the Purgatory.
from an Eastern Catholic website:
…Article V of the Treaty of Brest states “We shall not debate about purgatory…” implying that both sides can agree to disagree on the specifics of what the West calls “Purgatory.”
also later they say(Byzantine Catholics) the folowing:
… Rather than seeing this as a place to “sit and suffer,” the Eastern Fathers of the Church described the Final Theosis as being a journey. While this journey can entail hardships, there are also powerful glimpses of joy.
east2west.org/doctrine.htm
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catholic1seeks
Guest
OKAY OKAY. So the E.O. don’t believe in purgatory, so what? The Catholic Church does.
Where is this heading? ? ?
If the E.O. does not, simply say so. Though perhaps I’m not understadning the argument 100%.
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