Why is the Eastern Orthodox Church false?

[steve_b]

St Peter was in Antioch first.

I’ve always wondered why the East never made much of a deal over that.

In order of listing, hasn’t Alexandria always come before Antioch in the East? When Constantinople came along, Constantinople took 1st place and Antioch dropped to 3rd place.

 

[steve_b]

Continued from previous post

You just refuse to see it, and keep searching for a way to proove Purgatory.
STATE is NOT PLACE,

The OCA, appears to be under the juristiction of Antioch. If that is not true please correct me.

They give a very developed and detailed understanding of life after death, toll houses, which is the OCA teaching of purgation/punishment after one dies but before one goes to heaven.

• I wouldn’t think one goes to such detail if it is mere speculation on the OCA part, true? At least without saying it is speculation. True?
• I would assume that*** if** *they are under Antioch, they have approval from Antioch to teach this, true? And if that’s true, then Antioch believes the same. True?
• Is this a place or a state?

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/prayer_dead.aspx

scroll down to

The Church’s Prayer for the Dead

and

The Fortieth Day [1]

and

Examples of the Efficacy of Prayers Offered for the Dead at the Liturgy and of the Church’s Prayers for the Dead

and

Examples of the Efficacy of Prayers for the Dead

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

The OCA, appears to be under the juristiction of Antioch. If that is not true please correct me.

From the Orthodox wiki:

The Orthodox Church in America (OCA) is an autocephalous church with parishes mainly in the United States and Canada (though it has some parishes in Australia and elsewhere). The OCA was formerly known as the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church in America, or more informally, the Metropolia. Previous to that, it was the North American Diocese of the Church of Russia. The OCA’s autocephaly is not currently recognized by most of the other autocephalous Orthodox churches.

 

[steve_b]

From the Orthodox wiki:

The Orthodox Church in America (OCA) is an autocephalous church with parishes mainly in the United States and Canada (though it has some parishes in Australia and elsewhere). The OCA was formerly known as the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church in America, or more informally, the Metropolia. Previous to that, it was the North American Diocese of the Church of Russia. The OCA’s autocephaly is not currently recognized by most of the other autocephalous Orthodox churches.

Thanks for the clarification. It looks like they resumed communion in the 70’s with the Russian Orthodox.

 

[Harpazo]

Thanks for the clarification. It looks like they resumed communion in the 70’s with the Russian Orthodox.

No, they were always in communion with them. There has never been a breach.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[steve_b]

No, they were always in communion with them. There has never been a breach.

In Christ,
Andrew

Does that mean doctrines are in agreement with each other and always have been in agreement?

 

[Holly3278]

The Eastern Orthodox Church is not completely false. It is actually mostly true. However, they do get some things wrong. In particular, they are wrong about the papacy.

 

[josephdaniel29]

They give a very developed and detailed understanding of life after death, toll houses, which is the OCA teaching of purgation/punishment after one dies but before one goes to heaven.

The so called “aerial toll house” theory is not the teaching of the OCA or any other local Orthodox Church for that matter. It is a pious belief among many, especially monastics, but it is not taught as dogma. From what I understand not unlike the Catholic idea of Limbo.

In Christ
Joe

 

[steve_b]

The so called “aerial toll house” theory is not the teaching of the OCA or any other local Orthodox Church for that matter. It is a pious belief among many, especially monastics, but it is not taught as dogma. From what I understand not unlike the Catholic idea of Limbo

In Christ
Joe

Help me understand.

· Does the link provided, say toll booths/houses is “theory”, or “pious belief” by monastics and NOT teaching i.e. doctrine for Orthodox to believe? No.
· The following link is an OCA site. The EO i’ve asked here on CAF, say the OCA are in communion with the ROC and have never been out of communion. The OCA teach toll booth/house theology in detail…True?
· The largest Orthodox Church by far of ALL Orthodox churches is the ROC. True?Therefore, this teaching of toll booths/houses, is taught and believed by the majority of Orthodox.
· Purgatory as taught by the CC is a simple doctrine vs. the doctrine of toll booths/houses which has FAR more detail than even purgatory.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/prayer_dead.aspx

scroll down to

The Church’s Prayer for the Dead

and

The Fortieth Day [1]

and

Examples of the Efficacy of Prayers Offered for the Dead at the Liturgy and of the Church’s Prayers for the Dead2

Is the following fair to say

the Russian Orthodox and those in union with them, make up the majority of EO. They teach about toll houses after death to show there is temporary punishment and purification for those souls who will eventually go to heaven. If other Orthodox churches don’t teach this, they are in the minority of EO.

 

[josephdaniel29]

Please bear with me as I am responding from my phone. That website, orthodoxinfo.com is not an OCA website. I’m not sure where you got that from. The OCA’s website is www.oca.org. If you do a search for toll houses you will see a link to an article by Fr John Breck calling the belief dubious.

As to the ROC. I don’t deny that a lot of Orthodox, especially Russians, do believe in toll houses. That doesn’t mean that it is taught as doctrine/dogma by the Russian Church or any other local Church for that matter. The belief is, as I stated earlier, a theologoumena or pious belief not unlike Limbo.

Also just for clarification. Belief or non-belief in toll houses has nothing to do with prayers for the dead. All Orthodox believe that prayers for the departed are efficacious.

In Christ,
Joe

 

[steve_b]

Please bear with me as I am responding from my phone. That website, orthodoxinfo.com is not an OCA website. I’m not sure where you got that from.

that site was given to me by another Orthodox poster. Most of the Orthodox here don’t identify which type of Orthodox they are. As I recall I was told this site was OCA. Maybe they were wrong about that. Since that site definitely teaches toll houses, Maybe they are Russian. Is that fair to say?
jd:

The OCA’s website is www.oca.org. If you do a search for toll houses you will see a link to an article by Fr John Breck calling the belief dubious.

If you do a search through the link I provided, you’ll see copious Orthodox sources supporting toll houses. Who then is right?
jd:

As to the ROC. I don’t deny that a lot of Orthodox, especially Russians, do believe in toll houses.

And they continue to teach it. …true?
jd:

That doesn’t mean that it is taught as doctrine/dogma by the Russian Church or any other local Church for that matter. The belief is, as I stated earlier, a theologoumena or pious belief not unlike Limbo.

Would you agree that you don’t teach toll houses so strongly if it is dubious or speculation?
jd:

Also just for clarification. Belief or non-belief in toll houses has nothing to do with prayers for the dead. All Orthodox believe that prayers for the departed are efficacious.

In Christ,
Joe

I agree, prayers for the dead are efficatious.

But If a soul is either in heaven or hell when they die, (no toll houses), what good are prayers for them? If they are in hell they can’t get out. So prayers do them no good. If a soul is in heaven, they are in complete happiness. They don’t need prayers.

Why then do YOU think prayers for the dead are efficatious?

 

[steve_b]

Please bear with me as I am responding from my phone. That website, orthodoxinfo.com is not an OCA website. I’m not sure where you got that from. The OCA’s website is www.oca.org. If you do a search for toll houses you will see a link to an article by Fr John Breck calling the belief dubious.

As to the ROC. I don’t deny that a lot of Orthodox, especially Russians, do believe in toll houses. That doesn’t mean that it is taught as doctrine/dogma by the Russian Church or any other local Church for that matter. The belief is, as I stated earlier, a theologoumena or pious belief not unlike Limbo.

Also just for clarification. Belief or non-belief in toll houses has nothing to do with prayers for the dead. All Orthodox believe that prayers for the departed are efficacious.

In Christ,
Joe

I went to the Russian Orthodox website. They posted the following website, for searching within Russian Orthodoxy. So I checked out toll houses
orthodox-christianity.org/search?cx=006620037580445780645%3Ae4joz-0lovc&cof=FORID%3A11&ie=utf-8&source=ctop&newwindow=1&hl=en&lr=lang_en&q=toll+houses&text=&where=2&this_id=4&siteurl=www.orthodox-christianity.org%2Forthorus%2F#859

Who speaks for the RO? What is a person supposed to believe if they are Orthodox of the Russian variety or in union with the RO? Aren’t the RO a majority of all E. Orthodox? They definitely teach toll houses.

Specifically

DTH 602, Dogmatic Theology Dr. Harry Boosalis Fr. John Armstrong
*March 22, 2000 *
*(Edited October 3, 2008) *

“The Soul‟s Departure from the Body *and *The Taxing of Souls”

sthermanoca.org/documents/frjohn_papers/Toll_Houses.pdf

“Taxing of souls” a.k.a. = toll houses

 

[josephdaniel29]

that site was given to me by another Orthodox poster. Most of the Orthodox here don’t identify which type of Orthodox they are. As I recall I was told this site was OCA. Maybe they were wrong about that. Since that site definitely teaches toll houses, Maybe they are Russian. Is that fair to say?

They are definitely wrong about that. I think if you look at the evidence on the site it is probably run by a Greek Old Calendarist.

If you do a search through the link I provided, you’ll see copious Orthodox sources supporting toll houses. Who then is right?

It’s irrelevant. What bearing does it have on your salvation?

And they continue to teach it. …true?

If by “they” you mean “some” then yes. It is not a dogmatic teaching of the Orthodox Church. Haven’t I explained this to you already?

Would you agree that you don’t teach toll houses so strongly if it is dubious or speculation?

If they thought it was dubious I’m sure they wouldn’t teach it.

But If a soul is either in heaven or hell when they die, (no toll houses), what good are prayers for them? If they are in hell they can’t get out. So prayers do them no good. If a soul is in heaven, they are in complete happiness. They don’t need prayers.

Why does it have to be either we accept Arial Toll Houses or there is no middle state?

Why then do YOU think prayers for the dead are efficatious?

I don’t know. What bearing does it have on my salvation? If the Church makes a pronouncement on it I will accept it but for now I’m perfectly content with just knowing they are efficacious. I don’t need to know precisely how.

In Christ
Joe

 

[steve_b]

I think if you look at the evidence on the site it is probably run by a Greek Old Calendarist.

I think I found what you’re talking about. But based on your answer that follows, why is old or new calendar relevant?
jd:

It’s irrelevant. What bearing does it have on your salvation?

Is that the litmus test for judging what’s relevant or irrelevant to believe?
jd:

If by “they” you mean “some” then yes. It is not a dogmatic teaching of the Orthodox Church. Haven’t I explained this to you already?

by definition, doctrine = teaching .

therefore, toll houses = doctrine…true?
jd:

Why does it have to be either we accept Arial Toll Houses or there is no middle state?

at 40 days after death…(where toll houses seem to be in the understanding) do you have a different understanding and liturgy for what YOU do for the departed soul, than other Orthodox?
jd:

I don’t know. What bearing does it have on my salvation?

Again, Is that the answer you’d give to the calendar controversy, as well as other past issues between each EO group that produced bad feelings, schisms, and excommunications etc??
jd:

If the Church makes a pronouncement on it I will accept it but for now I’m perfectly content with just knowing they are efficacious. I don’t need to know precisely how.

But who makes that authoritative pronouncement on this?

The following came from a RO website.
sthermanoca.org/documents/frjohn_papers/Toll_Houses.pdf

From:
“DTH 602, Dogmatic Theology”
by
Dr. Harry Boosalis Greek Orthodox
Fr. John Armstrong OCA

Toll houses are clearly taught.

 

[prodromos]

I agree, prayers for the dead are efficatious.

But If a soul is either in heaven or hell when they die, (no toll houses), what good are prayers for them? If they are in hell they can’t get out. So prayers do them no good. If a soul is in heaven, they are in complete happiness. They don’t need prayers.

Why then do YOU think prayers for the dead are efficatious?

No one is in hell until the last judgement which has not yet happened. No one’s fate is sealed until that day so we continue to pray to God asking Him to have mercy on their souls.

John

 

[steve_b]

No one is in hell until the last judgement which has not yet happened. No one’s fate is sealed until that day so we continue to pray to God asking Him to have mercy on their souls.

John

The links (From EO) I gave, have a more detailed understanding after one dies.

So what is the soul (righteous & unrighteous) doing between death of the body until the last judgement? THAT’s the point

Please give some scripture to support your position.

 

[josephdaniel29]

So what is the soul (righteous & unrighteous) doing between death of the body until the last judgement? THAT’s the point.

You still haven’t told me what difference it makes.

 

[josephdaniel29]

I think I found what you’re talking about. But based on your answer that follows, why is old or new calendar relevant?

It’s not considered a doctrinal issue for the canonical Orthodox Churches. It’s only the schismatic Old Caledarist groups that consider it so.

Is that the litmus test for judging what’s relevant or irrelevant to believe?

Can you think of a single dogmatic pronouncement of the Seven Ecumenical Councils that doesn’t have a direct bearing on an individual’s salvation? I cannot. That is one of the biggest issues we have with Catholicism, your proclivity to dogmatize beliefs that are peripheral to our salvation. The Assumption is a prime example. Setting aside whether or not it is true (we Orthodox believe she was assumed bodily into heaven), what possible bearing does that belief have on our salvation? Why in the world would you say a person is condemned to eternal torment for denying the belief?

by definition, doctrine = teaching .

therefore, toll houses = doctrine…true?

As I’ve said, some people teach it. Just like some Catholics taught the existence of Limbo. Unless you are willing to admit the Catholic Church has changed it’s doctrine then you have to accept there are teachings that are not doctrinal in nature.

at 40 days after death…(where toll houses seem to be in the understanding) do you have a different understanding and liturgy for what YOU do for the departed soul, than other Orthodox?

The liturgy and prayers are the same whether you are in Russia or Alabama, and none of them mention Arial Toll Houses.

Again, Is that the answer you’d give to the calendar controversy, as well as other past issues between each EO group that produced bad feelings, schisms, and excommunications etc??

Yes it is.

But who makes that authoritative pronouncement on this?

The Church does.

Toll houses are clearly taught.

By individuals, not the Church. Although I wouldn’t be surprised, considering the confusion the teaching has caused, if the question is addressed at the upcoming Great and Holy Council slated for early 2013.

In Christ,
Joe

 

[steve_b]

You still haven’t told me what difference it makes.

We should believe in all things that are true. No one is required to believe what isn’t true. Therefore, the litmus is, what is true vs what is not.

 

[steve_b]

It’s not considered a doctrinal issue for the canonical Orthodox Churches. It’s only the schismatic Old Caledarist groups that consider it so.

Is there a difference between the old calendar followers and old calendarists?

Who determines who is canonical?
jd:

Can you think of a single dogmatic pronouncement of the Seven Ecumenical Councils that doesn’t have a direct bearing on an individual’s salvation? I cannot. That is one of the biggest issues we have with Catholicism, your proclivity to dogmatize beliefs that are peripheral to our salvation. The Assumption is a prime example. Setting aside whether or not it is true (we Orthodox believe she was assumed bodily into heaven), what possible bearing does that belief have on our salvation?

• EO are the ones who set the limit at 7 councils, not the Catholic Church.
• One is either disposed to believing what is true or they are not. But that disposition doesn’t change what is true.

jd:

Why in the world would you say a person is condemned to eternal torment for denying the belief?

Do you have a specific reference?

BTW, anathema doesn’t mean condemned to hell.
jd:

As I’ve said, some people teach it. Just like some Catholics taught the existence of Limbo. Unless you are willing to admit the Catholic Church has changed it’s doctrine then you have to accept there are teachings that are not doctrinal in nature.

If a teaching was taught in the past and is currently being taught, such as toll houses, then it is a doctrine…true? If the Russians teach it, by numbers aren’t they the majority of EO?
jd:

The liturgy and prayers are the same whether you are in Russia or Alabama, and none of them mention Arial Toll Houses.

As I pointed out in a previous post,

The following came from a RO website.
sthermanoca.org/documents…oll_Houses.pdf

From:
“DTH 602, Dogmatic Theology”
by
Dr. Harry Boosalis is Greek Orthodox
Fr. John Armstrong is OCA

Have you read the link? It’s a quick read.

Toll houses are clearly taught and brought into the liturgy. See for yourself. I don’t agree with toll houses, I’m just observing it’s taught in EO.
jd:

The Church does.

Which church? Seems you’re not all on the same page.
jd:

By individuals, not the Church.

Wait a minute. As I’m reading these threads, aren’t individual’s (the rank and file) (name removed by moderator)ut in EO counted equally with bishops, deacons, priests etc? As I understand it, the laity have just as much say in what is approved, and they can veto a council. Am I misunderstanding something?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3904087&postcount=828
jd:

Although I wouldn’t be surprised, considering the confusion the teaching has caused, if the question is addressed at the upcoming Great and Holy Council slated for early 2013.

Given conciliarism in EO, (assuming the individual in the previous link is correct) how will you ever come to any decision given how many different levels of ranks, have to agree, and the laity for example also have the power to veto a council’s conclusions ?