Why is the Problem of Suffering a problem?

[snarflemike]

For those who think that the Problem of Suffering (the existence of suffering in this world) is evidence that God does not exist, can you please explain why you think it is evidence?

To put it another way, in your view, if God did exist, what would be different in this world and why?

 

[EviPolevhia]

There is no evidence that proves God does not exist because you can’t prove a negative in that way. I would say though that suffering and evil in the world make the typical Christian view of God -less likely- to exist based on my understanding of what pain and suffering is versus the powers of something that is supposed to be all powerful.

If God did exist, I would expect there to not be things like sudden infant death syndrome. People who become amputees through no fault of their own to suddenly regrow limbs. People to not need food and water so that millions didn’t have to starve to death every year. Things like that.

 

[Rhuarc]

Suffering leads all to God because He is the ultimate comforter. We were not meant to have eternal bliss on earth we were meant to have it in heaven. It is hedonists who bring up the Problem of Suffering argument.

 

[EviPolevhia]

Suffering leads all to God because He is the ultimate comforter. We were not meant to have eternal bliss on earth we were meant to have it in heaven. It is hedonists who bring up the Problem of Suffering argument.

So if you’re a comforter with no one to comfort it is better that people not remain as they are, but be subject to pain/torture/death and then be comforted? God created Earth so he could’ve made it in a state of Bliss. He did not. He created it with suffering. How is this any different from a cosmic case of Hero Syndrome?

 

[snarflemike]

There is no evidence that proves God does not exist because you can’t prove a negative in that way. I would say though that suffering and evil in the world make the typical Christian view of God -less likely- to exist based on my understanding of what pain and suffering is versus the powers of something that is supposed to be all powerful.

If God did exist, I would expect there to not be things like sudden infant death syndrome. People who become amputees through no fault of their own to suddenly regrow limbs. People to not need food and water so that millions didn’t have to starve to death every year. Things like that.

In this world, would people ever die?

Would people ever suffer any physical pain or discomfort?

Would people ever suffer any emotional pain or anguish?

 

[Dorothy]

So if you’re a comforter with no one to comfort it is better that people not remain as they are, but be subject to pain/torture/death and then be comforted? God created Earth so he could’ve made it in a state of Bliss. He did not. He created it with suffering. How is this any different from a cosmic case of Hero Syndrome?

God did create the world and our first parents, and it was very good. It was sin (selfishness, pride) that necessitated the Second Person of the Trinity to come and be one of us, teach us, and suffer and die for us.

Many saints make a point of explaining that suffering, when offered to the Lord in union with His suffering for us gains many graces. If you truly have no beliefs you will find what I just said as nonsense. Resignation to suffering that we cannot chhange, can gain graces for others. That is Christlike and unselfish, and it is purifying.

 

[Lochias]

There is no evidence that proves God does not exist because you can’t prove a negative in that way. I would say though that suffering and evil in the world make the typical Christian view of God -less likely- to exist based on my understanding of what pain and suffering is versus the powers of something that is supposed to be all powerful.

If God did exist, I would expect there to not be things like sudden infant death syndrome. People who become amputees through no fault of their own to suddenly regrow limbs. People to not need food and water so that millions didn’t have to starve to death every year. Things like that.

If you’re going to lead with the “all-powerful” thing, you have to include “all-loving”, as well. And, any parent can tell you that loving your children sometimes involves letting things happen that those children don’t see as good or needed, but bad. Doesn’t mean they aren’t good.

Your argument attempts to bring God down to human thinking, and as such, is intrinsically and fatally flawed from the get-go. We do not have God’s field of view, and can never see all things like God can. But we do know that what happens, happens for a good reason, and we learn this from many sources.

Suffering works for our good, and the good of others. When one realizes this and accepts it is when one overcomes suffering, even unto death itself.

 

[EviPolevhia]

In this world, would people ever die?

Would people ever suffer any physical pain or discomfort?

Would people ever suffer any emotional pain or anguish?

Why -should- people die? Experience pain? Discomfort? Pain? anguish? Either Physical or Emotional?

 

[Lochias]

So if you’re a comforter with no one to comfort it is better that people not remain as they are, but be subject to pain/torture/death and then be comforted? God created Earth so he could’ve made it in a state of Bliss. He did not. He created it with suffering. How is this any different from a cosmic case of Hero Syndrome?

If you think you can create a universe better than God, get to it. When you’ve finished, let me know, and we’ll compare.

 

[EviPolevhia]

In this world, would people ever die?

Would people ever suffer any physical pain or discomfort?

Would people ever suffer any emotional pain or anguish?

Why -should- people die? Experience pain? Discomfort? Pain? anguish? Either Physical or Emotional?

If you’re going to lead with the “all-powerful” thing, you have to include “all-loving”, as well. And, any parent can tell you that loving your children sometimes involves letting things happen that those children don’t see as good or needed, but bad. Doesn’t mean they aren’t good.

To an extent, yes. But beyond the extent, we call that negligence. There are some cases where I would say it’s like a parent letting their child learn. In other cases, it’s negligent homicide.

Your argument attempts to bring God down to human thinking, and as such, is intrinsically and fatally flawed from the get-go. We do not have God’s field of view, and can never see all things like God can. But we do know that what happens, happens for a good reason, and we learn this from many sources.

All I have is my own thinking and this thread was asking for responses from humans, not God. If you ask for a human response there is going to be a human response. I can’t think like God. If I was all loving I would desire my creation to be able to understand me. If I was all powerful I would gift them with the ability to understand my thoughts from the get-go. God has not done that.

Suffering works for our good, and the good of others. When one realizes this and accepts it is when one overcomes suffering, even unto death itself.

You can say that to a patient in a hospital. Me, I’ll give them an anesthetic. Because I desire for there to be as little suffering and as much joy as possible in the world.

If you think you can create a universe better than God, get to it. When you’ve finished, let me know, and we’ll compare.

So are you saying what I described is a world better then God’s? If you’re serious then pray to God that He gives me those powers. Go ahead, I’ll wait.

 

[Lochias]

To an extent, yes. But beyond the extent, we call that negligence. There are some cases where I would say it’s like a parent letting their child learn. In other cases, it’s negligent homicide.

All I have is my own thinking and this thread was asking for responses from humans, not God. If you ask for a human response there is going to be a human response. I can’t think like God. If I was all loving I would desire my creation to be able to understand me. If I was all powerful I would gift them with the ability to understand my thoughts from the get-go. God has not done that.

You’re asking for a human response about the way God does things? Methinks you aren’t very serious in your quest for answers, but rather looking for a reason to argue.

You can say that to a patient in a hospital. Me, I’ll give them an anesthetic. Because I desire for there to be as little suffering and as much joy as possible in the world.

I like how you assume that I think anesthetic is a bad thing. We cannot communicate from an equal point of view if you are unwilling or unable to learn why Catholics think the way we do.

So are you saying what I described is a world better then God’s? If you’re serious then pray to God that He gives me those powers. Go ahead, I’ll wait.

No, I’m saying that you’d fail miserably and totally, because God is God and you are not God. As soon as you learn how to make a stable star and hang it in the sky like our own sun, for starters, I’ll start taking your position more seriously. I will certainly pray for you, however, and for things better than mere power.

 

[Evan]

I suspect it there were no suffering in this world, there would also be no Christians. Noone would love God because noone would search for him. We would all be self centered egotists.

There would also be no happiness, for the greatest happiness lies in our relationship with God.

BUT there would be those who ask, why can’t we all be rich? If I were God I would make everyone rich beyond their wildest dreams.

… There is a mathematical field call optimization theory … in which one searches for the most optimal solution to problem where you have defined what you want to optimize. In the 18th century, the question of Good was asked. How could God create a world with the greatest good? The answer was: we live in the best of all possible worlds. For without suffering, there is no need to help our neighbor, to search for cures, to feed the hungry, to love one another. See: ams.org/notices/200903/rtx090300376p.pdf

Yeah… It in an article published by the American Mathematical Society. No science, no theology, just MATH. … way cool…

Ekeland sets the tone of his beautifully written and enormously enjoyable book with its
opening sentence: “The optimist believes that this is the best of all possible worlds, and the pessimist fears that this might be the case.”

 

[WTSherman]

This post has caused me to do the following:

Tear my robes and discard them.
The vow to wear sackcloth for next 7 days.
I will tear out my hair and cut my hands!

Suffering will remain as a problem because God does not necessarily meddle in the immediate affairs of men.

For all we know God is the shepherd of many planets!

 

[snarflemike]

Why -should- people die? Experience pain? Discomfort? Pain? anguish? Either Physical or Emotional?

I didn’t say any of this -should- be. I’m asking what the world would look like if God behaved as you think God would behave. No death - are there any births then? Does the population explode to trillions?

No suffering? Can I not even whack the person I am angry at? If not, would that inability not cause ME suffering?

No anguish? What if the woman I love marries another? Somebody’s GOT to lose in that situation, but in your view there is no loss.

On the other hand, if there is no pain, no suffering, no anguish, no sadness, no loneliness, then is there any kindness, any succoring? Any charity? Any love? If nothing we can do can cause anyone the least mental, emotional or physical suffering, can anything we do cause any form of happiness, joy, relief, pleasure?

So what does the world look like if God behaved the way you think he should? Tell us how this better world would work so we can compare the two. We need something some standard to judge the world God did create, so offer your standard and make sure it’s one that holds together.