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Timothysis
Guest
I’ve been to a Maronite liturgy where a sign of peace is used. Their liturgy is very old. So are the Maronites a bunch of modernists, too, just like the NO mass goers???
Why Is the "sign of peace",during mass,turning into a prolonged party?
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puzzleannie
Guest
before this degenerates into a NO-bashing thread, I would like to say I have no objection whatever to the sign of peace ritual as it exists, or even its placement and timing, when done as intended. I, like OP, have a huge issue with the necessity many people, at least here, have to hug and kiss at least every person they know in the 3 surrounding pews, and leaving the pew to travel to the other side of the church to greet all their friends and relatives–meanwhile, anyone who is just visiting, especially if they are alone, is completely ignored. I have an issue with this action becoming a prelude to preparing to leave church before, or immediately after communion, or as an intermission of sorts. I do agree with posters who warn proper catechesis on this action is required, which of course could be said about any part of the Mass.
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ralphinal
Guest
A parrish that I belonged to for a year or so (it was an hour to the next closest Church) had the huge “hand hold” in the Ouor Father, with everyone sliding to fill the aisle in the middle. They stood like that until the sign of peace, when they would go back to their seats, talkingand greeting each other. Talk about disruptive…
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Freshman88
Guest
The Maronites have their own liturgical tradition, if they are being true to it, then God bless it.
There is this constant comparing to the Eastern liturgies when we discuss the NO. This goes right past us traditionalists because we aren’t concerned about how faithful the Roman rite is being to the Maronite tradition, we are concerned for the Latin/Roman tradition.
The notion of organic growth seems to be very hard to grasp.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
The sign of peace is a good thing in and of itself.
Like Annie, I have no issues with giving ‘peace’. Like Joy, I view the person next to me, whether it’s somebody I know or not, ‘loud’ or ‘quiet’, ‘like me’ or ‘not like me’, as a brother or sister in Christ.
But there are times, places, situations, and individuals who can ‘take’ this ‘good thing’ and make it ‘not so good’.
As others say, it is one thing to turn to the people right around you and nod, shake hands, even exchange hugs (family/friends/culture) depending on what is mutually agreed upon by the people involved (without any words or gestures to imply that only ONE way of offering peace is ‘good’ and anything else is not). This means, if Mrs. X offers a hand but Mr. Z nods in return without taking the hand, Mrs. X does not go HARUMPH, pointedly turn her back, make rude comments about ‘stuckup people’, or even grab Mr. Z’s hand anyway; further, Mr. Z, when simply nodding, does not HARUMPH at Mrs. X’s offer to hold hands, pointedly turn his back, make rude comments about ‘grabby people’, or lock his hands around his body as though afraid of being grabbed. Mrs. X simply offers a hand, Mr. Z nods, both say peace, both MEAN IT, both are happy and neither thinks the other is wrong.
Additionally, while giving peace as I said to those right next to you is one thing, it is quite another for a person to push past a couple of dozen people, grabbing each of them, pumping their hands up and down, speaking in loud (and pronounced) passages, “John, the peace of Christ be upon you now and always! Gert, may the peace rest upon you and your family, give my best to cousin Ted when you see him next week down in Peoria! Greetings, friend, and welcome to St. X’s parish and may the peace of Christ be with you, not only here and now but throughout the Mass which never ends, don’t forget, coffee and donuts after Mass!” for 5 to 10 minutes, including speaking loudly ABOVE the “Lamb of God” and well into the communion hymn when everybody else has long finished and sat, knelt, or is in the communion line already.
The quiet older lady who ‘nods’ and smiles the peace to her seat mates may do so because she has painful arthritis. The jovial young man who has come down the line of 5 pews shaking and hugging is (God love him) honestly intending to give ‘peace’ when he pumps the lady’s hand. . .but she spends the rest of the Mass, not to mention the rest of the Sunday and possibly days more, in pain from her hands being ‘pumped’.
So there has to be some sort of guideline of mutual courtesy that takes into account the very laudable and genuine need of the jovial young man (because there are many people for whom a handshake given at Mass might be the ONLY gesture of warm human companionship they get) as well as the very laudable and genuine need of the quiet older lady (for whom likewise the nods, smiles, and gestures which give her the recognition of peace AND the care of not injuring her physically might the ONLY gesture of warm human companionship SHE gets).
Isn’t it possible for everybody to THINK FIRST, and ACT SECOND?
Like Annie, I have no issues with giving ‘peace’. Like Joy, I view the person next to me, whether it’s somebody I know or not, ‘loud’ or ‘quiet’, ‘like me’ or ‘not like me’, as a brother or sister in Christ.
But there are times, places, situations, and individuals who can ‘take’ this ‘good thing’ and make it ‘not so good’.
As others say, it is one thing to turn to the people right around you and nod, shake hands, even exchange hugs (family/friends/culture) depending on what is mutually agreed upon by the people involved (without any words or gestures to imply that only ONE way of offering peace is ‘good’ and anything else is not). This means, if Mrs. X offers a hand but Mr. Z nods in return without taking the hand, Mrs. X does not go HARUMPH, pointedly turn her back, make rude comments about ‘stuckup people’, or even grab Mr. Z’s hand anyway; further, Mr. Z, when simply nodding, does not HARUMPH at Mrs. X’s offer to hold hands, pointedly turn his back, make rude comments about ‘grabby people’, or lock his hands around his body as though afraid of being grabbed. Mrs. X simply offers a hand, Mr. Z nods, both say peace, both MEAN IT, both are happy and neither thinks the other is wrong.
Additionally, while giving peace as I said to those right next to you is one thing, it is quite another for a person to push past a couple of dozen people, grabbing each of them, pumping their hands up and down, speaking in loud (and pronounced) passages, “John, the peace of Christ be upon you now and always! Gert, may the peace rest upon you and your family, give my best to cousin Ted when you see him next week down in Peoria! Greetings, friend, and welcome to St. X’s parish and may the peace of Christ be with you, not only here and now but throughout the Mass which never ends, don’t forget, coffee and donuts after Mass!” for 5 to 10 minutes, including speaking loudly ABOVE the “Lamb of God” and well into the communion hymn when everybody else has long finished and sat, knelt, or is in the communion line already.
The quiet older lady who ‘nods’ and smiles the peace to her seat mates may do so because she has painful arthritis. The jovial young man who has come down the line of 5 pews shaking and hugging is (God love him) honestly intending to give ‘peace’ when he pumps the lady’s hand. . .but she spends the rest of the Mass, not to mention the rest of the Sunday and possibly days more, in pain from her hands being ‘pumped’.
So there has to be some sort of guideline of mutual courtesy that takes into account the very laudable and genuine need of the jovial young man (because there are many people for whom a handshake given at Mass might be the ONLY gesture of warm human companionship they get) as well as the very laudable and genuine need of the quiet older lady (for whom likewise the nods, smiles, and gestures which give her the recognition of peace AND the care of not injuring her physically might the ONLY gesture of warm human companionship SHE gets).
Isn’t it possible for everybody to THINK FIRST, and ACT SECOND?
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consumedconvert
Guest
Some excellent posts here. I am seeing a glimpse of the scope of the problem in some dioceses from your posts. I can honestly say that I have never witnessed anything like this over-exuberance in our diocese, but I don’t doubt it exists in some others.
We live in an overall fairly traiditional diocese, I suppose, and the majority (though sadly not all) seem to realise that Holy Mass is to be served by the Greeting, not interrupted by it. And our Bishop…God bless the Bishop!
We live in an overall fairly traiditional diocese, I suppose, and the majority (though sadly not all) seem to realise that Holy Mass is to be served by the Greeting, not interrupted by it. And our Bishop…God bless the Bishop!
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Timothysis
Guest
The question at hand regards the sign of peace. The Maronites have it, and you’re fine with it. The Missal of Pope Paul VI has it and you have a problem.
Speaking of organic growth, didn’t the early Church have the “kiss of peace” in the liturgy for centuries? And that the sign of peace is based on this practice?
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deigloriam
Guest
As someone who goes to both the TLM & the Novus Ordo, I have to say the sign of peace at the Novus Ordo is probably the worst part of that liturgy. And, probably not surprisingly to those on this forum, it seems to be more out of control the more elderly the congregation is.
Maybe I’m just carrying over my constant fear of my parents generation coming at me with outstretched (grabbing for money for their ill-funded retirements) hands
Maybe I’m just carrying over my constant fear of my parents generation coming at me with outstretched (grabbing for money for their ill-funded retirements) hands
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consumedconvert
Guest
LOL! I still would tend to think of this as a regional problem…As someone who goes to both the TLM & the Novus Ordo, I have to say the sign of peace at the Novus Ordo is probably the worst part of that liturgy. And, probably not surprisingly to those on this forum, it seems to be more out of control the more elderly the congregation is.
Maybe I’m just carrying over my constant fear of my parents generation coming at me with outstretched (grabbing for money for their ill-funded retirements) hands
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EasterJoy
Guest
To each according to his need, from each according to his means…“Peace of Christ to you, and fork it over, brother!”As someone who goes to both the TLM & the Novus Ordo, I have to say the sign of peace at the Novus Ordo is probably the worst part of that liturgy. And, probably not surprisingly to those on this forum, it seems to be more out of control the more elderly the congregation is.
Maybe I’m just carrying over my constant fear of my parents generation coming at me with outstretched (grabbing for money for their ill-funded retirements) hands
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Freshman88
Guest
That is not organic growth.
The Roman Rite eventually discarded the kiss of peace as it is today, it naturally came to a point where it no longer needed it as such. Overall the Roman rite favored prayful silence, and interior active participation.
When this liturgical practice was introduced, with a host of other changes, the very characteristic of the Roman rite changed.
Organic growth is the natural and slow development of the liturgy. It means respecting the liturgy as it was given to you, and merely adding or taking away prayers in order to enhance the liturgy according to its characteristics. Indeed these characteristics can even change, but over time in a slow and organic development.
The dramatic changes which occurred in the late 60’s were anything but organic. If they were organic we would not have two separate masses. Whereas with the Classical mass the 1962 missal is considered to be the same mass that St. Pius V would have known. These changes in the masses were merely revisions, they were not the creation of an entirely new mass.
Yet with the creation of the Paul VI’s mass, it was exactly that, the creation of a new mass. Many will try and point to the early liturgical practices of other rites or the early Church in order to justify the authenticity of the changes, but just because it has been done before does not mean that it had respected the integrity and nature of the Roman rite. One merely has to experience both the NO and the EF to notice the distinct differences in the liturgy, clearly the later was a dramatic change from the earlier, and both have a distinctly different nature.
You might ask why is it so important to respect organic growth? The answer to that question is lex orandi lex credendi, the law of prayer is the law of faith. Each and every prayer, repetition, movement and rubric is based of a theological teaching of the Church. Within our mass is preserved the work of dozens of bishops and even saints. To violently rip out their prayers is in essence to discard their wisdom. Not to mention it does not respect the work of each and every generation who took the liturgy and placed their own mark upon it. Each prayer was carefully written, and revised with each and every generation. To violently rip out these prayers is to discard that wisdom which each generation had. Think of all the generations which have touched upon the mass since the time of St. Gregory the Great, our liturgical father. And indeed it is worth preserving their efforts, for in each generation the Church was experience something different, and their work will reflect their experiences. It is this notion of organic growth and development which makes the EF so rich!
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Ted_in_Charlott
Guest
I came into the Church Easter 2006. Of all the differences between the Mass and the Southern Baptist Church Sunday Service, I love all the components of the Mass more with this exception. I complained about it in RCIA that it seemed like some Catholics go out of their way not to be friendly. I have heard the arguments that it is disrespectful, but how can you say you love God and ignore your brother. If you look at it from the perspective of God being our Father and we are his children which would he rather us do: ignore each other or meet and greet each other? I don’t even like going to the parish I was baptized in any more because of all the old fuddy-duddies that are sour pusses.
It is almost like going into some parishes and they run from you when all you want to do is be friendly. I am fortunate we go to one church that holds hand accross the aisle during the Our Father, and we go to another that has a small greet after the entrance.
Finally the Catholic Churches in our area that are growing are the more friendly ones while the older more fuddy-duddy ones are losing members. The only segments of the parish that is growing is the Latin segment, where they do meet and greet have good music and they actually act like they like you.
Why go anywhere if I am wanted? No wonder some people leave the church? They need a little warmth and brotherhood. Where better than the Catholic Church to get it?
The solution is simple: Most churches in our area have at least 2 mass on Sunday. Why not have 1 “old fuddy duddy stick in the mud sour puss” mass and 1 “happy meet and greet and hug and be caring hold the hands across the aisle” mass? Of course children can’t go to the “old fuddy duddy stick in the mud sour puss” mass because they might sniffle and that would offend some one. And eventually all the “old fuddy duddy stick in the mud sour puss” parishinors will die off and we can have both masses and the church can have happy services wih Our Lord.
So if you are a Grinch and don’t like to be happy we can all leave you alone and all you “old fuddy duddy stick in the mud sour puss” people can “mourn” your mass, while we celebrate our Lord.
It is almost like going into some parishes and they run from you when all you want to do is be friendly. I am fortunate we go to one church that holds hand accross the aisle during the Our Father, and we go to another that has a small greet after the entrance.
Finally the Catholic Churches in our area that are growing are the more friendly ones while the older more fuddy-duddy ones are losing members. The only segments of the parish that is growing is the Latin segment, where they do meet and greet have good music and they actually act like they like you.
Why go anywhere if I am wanted? No wonder some people leave the church? They need a little warmth and brotherhood. Where better than the Catholic Church to get it?
The solution is simple: Most churches in our area have at least 2 mass on Sunday. Why not have 1 “old fuddy duddy stick in the mud sour puss” mass and 1 “happy meet and greet and hug and be caring hold the hands across the aisle” mass? Of course children can’t go to the “old fuddy duddy stick in the mud sour puss” mass because they might sniffle and that would offend some one. And eventually all the “old fuddy duddy stick in the mud sour puss” parishinors will die off and we can have both masses and the church can have happy services wih Our Lord.
So if you are a Grinch and don’t like to be happy we can all leave you alone and all you “old fuddy duddy stick in the mud sour puss” people can “mourn” your mass, while we celebrate our Lord.
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peregrinus_WA
Guest
At my parish, we go directly to the Agnus Dei and skip the “sign of peace”. It has gotten to the point with me that, when I visit other parishes, I just close my eyes until the “sign of peace” is over.
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Hesychios
Guest
It should be the “kiss of Peace”.
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http://www.orthodox-islington.org.uk/part_six_files/image011.jpg
This is not just for clergy, it is for everyone. It is interesting to observe how far we have departed from the first century church.
But no, it is not supposed to be a long party. There should be time to associate with one another outside of the Mass. But today, with multiple Masses and the rush to clear the parking lot of these very large congregations, few can take the time to properly BE a community.
It’s a shame.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
http://www.orthodox-islington.org.uk/part_six_files/image011.jpg
This is not just for clergy, it is for everyone. It is interesting to observe how far we have departed from the first century church.
But no, it is not supposed to be a long party. There should be time to associate with one another outside of the Mass. But today, with multiple Masses and the rush to clear the parking lot of these very large congregations, few can take the time to properly BE a community.
It’s a shame.
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Fitswimmer
Guest
I’ve always felt sort of “jarred” by the Sign of Peace being located where it is in the Mass. Everyone is in a contempletive space, getting ready to receive Communion-and a party breaks out. “Hey, Harry-how’s the family! How 'bout those YANKEES!!! Jo-Ann, don’t forget we have to get the donuts ready! Alexander, remember we have soccer afterwards!” (all real comments I’ve heard during the sign of peace)
I’m happy for those who have a more respectful atmosphere or who have less trouble with the party-but it was one of the things that drove me to the traditional Chapel. I get enough LOUD during the week at work-I just want an hour of peace to commune with my Lord. I feel just as connected to my Community when we are all silently focused on the miracle that is taking place on the altar. All those hearts and minds joined in prayer creates such a strong energetic atmosphere-it’s electric to me. I never fail to leave Mass charged up and ready to take on the week.
I’m happy for those who have a more respectful atmosphere or who have less trouble with the party-but it was one of the things that drove me to the traditional Chapel. I get enough LOUD during the week at work-I just want an hour of peace to commune with my Lord. I feel just as connected to my Community when we are all silently focused on the miracle that is taking place on the altar. All those hearts and minds joined in prayer creates such a strong energetic atmosphere-it’s electric to me. I never fail to leave Mass charged up and ready to take on the week.
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Ted_in_Charlott
Guest
One of the nice things about wanting to be alone is you usually can get your wish. However, if you need some companionship afterwards, it might be hard to find because you ran everyone off.
Some people are actually starving for a kind greeting, a warm hand shake, a friendly hug. They live alone, they go to mass, they go home. Jesus is in the tabernacle pleading for you to go over to that old woman and talk to her for a minute, she is so lonely. That woman that brings her 3 kids to church and nobody even talks to her to find out she has a real need. That man sitting by himself would give anything just to have a little conversation.
But you leave them alone because you want to be reverant. Sounds like the priest that walks by the injured man on the road while the Good Samaritan comes by later. No wonder people leave the Catholic Church. They just want a little human interaction.
Wake up people. Sometimes in business you can have the best product in the world and if you don’t “market” it nobody will buy it. Same for crummy products, they can be packaged to be the best thing since sliced bread. We have the only true church but the grumpusses don’t even want to be bothered to be kind and compassionate.
Some people are actually starving for a kind greeting, a warm hand shake, a friendly hug. They live alone, they go to mass, they go home. Jesus is in the tabernacle pleading for you to go over to that old woman and talk to her for a minute, she is so lonely. That woman that brings her 3 kids to church and nobody even talks to her to find out she has a real need. That man sitting by himself would give anything just to have a little conversation.
But you leave them alone because you want to be reverant. Sounds like the priest that walks by the injured man on the road while the Good Samaritan comes by later. No wonder people leave the Catholic Church. They just want a little human interaction.
Wake up people. Sometimes in business you can have the best product in the world and if you don’t “market” it nobody will buy it. Same for crummy products, they can be packaged to be the best thing since sliced bread. We have the only true church but the grumpusses don’t even want to be bothered to be kind and compassionate.
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ethelzguy
Guest
It’s a pre and post Vatican II thing, dontcha know…
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Fitswimmer
Guest
Who says we don’t talk to our fellow parishioners??? Just because we don’t like a party breaking out during Mass??
There is plenty of time for me to speak to anyone I like, and I do-before and after the Mass!!
My Grandmother said it the best: “What could you possibly have to say to each other that is MORE important than speaking to Jesus or listening to what He has to say to you?”
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ralphinal
Guest
Ted,
For the record, I was born after Vatican II. I have no issue with the sign of peace. In fact, I like it. It should be there. What I do not like comes in two parts. First, is there a stoppage in the Mass to accomadate people talking or walking around. At this point, the mass is building to its climax. It is an unnatural place to stop for people to get to know each other. Second, are people getting the wrong idea, as some have with the hand-holding Our Father: i.e. what is the main point of mass?
For the record, I was born after Vatican II. I have no issue with the sign of peace. In fact, I like it. It should be there. What I do not like comes in two parts. First, is there a stoppage in the Mass to accomadate people talking or walking around. At this point, the mass is building to its climax. It is an unnatural place to stop for people to get to know each other. Second, are people getting the wrong idea, as some have with the hand-holding Our Father: i.e. what is the main point of mass?
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consumedconvert
Guest
Hmm, I would think American culture has a LOT to do with shaking hands instead of kissing. Of course I actually do give a kiss of peace…but only to my wife…
This past Sunday the priest gave a homily where he said we ought to give a proverbial “kiss of peace” wherever we went, even to our boss at work. My boss was sitting in the pew in front of me. He turned around and gave me a quizzical look, and I shook my head.
Handshakes 'round here.
But really, I would have no problem returning to the actual Kiss of Peace, but I doubt our American mocho-man culture would tolerate it well, unfortunately.
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