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distracted
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the state w/ the lowest % of Catholics is Oklahoma… 4%
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Sherry_G
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We have just had our plan to expand our Church due to influx of Catholics approved by our Bishop in Little Rock. Some are retiring Northerners moving to the warmer climate and lower taxes, some are converts from the other faiths. Arkansas has a very high percentage of church going Christians, so we anticipate an ever growing population of converts along with the relocated Catholics. 
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Contarini
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It’s more than that, but it’s not exactly a denomination either. Usually a “denomination” has some kind of central bureaucracy–the C of C’s don’t. There are actually three groups that are part of the “Restoration movement”: the non-instrumental “Churches of Christ” which are particularly strong in the South; the “Independent Christian churches and churches of Christ” which use musical instruments and are a bit more moderate, but also don’t consider themselves a denomination; and the “Disciples of Christ” which are the most liberal and which are a denomination (though my wife, a lifelong United Methodist, continually marvels when we drive by their Midwestern headquarters, because it’s a tiny building compared to what the UM’s would need for their huge bureaucracy), which is one reason why the “four C’s” (the middle group I mentioned) separated from them.
Insiders refer to these groups as the “two C’s,” “four C’s,” and “CCDC’s” respectively. I went to a “four C” college (Milligan), which is how I know this stuff (other than the fact that I’m a church historian and it’s my job!).
Catholics often confuse the concepts of “denomination” and “tradition.” Everyone has a tradition. But some Protestants really do have congregational autonomy and are not responsible to any kind of broader authority structure. Often such Protestants still have some kind of fellowship and accountability structure, but there’s no central group that makes decisions. So in the four C’s, which I know better than the two C’s, there are a couple of churches (the ones associated with my colleges) that have women as elders. Back when I was more familiar with the situation (in the mid 90s), I was told that many congregations were very uncomfortable with the fact that these two churches had female elders, but there wasn’t much they could do. They could all decide that the two congregations in question were out of fellowship, but there wasn’t much of a structure to coordinate this.
In other words, even if you think this decentralization is a bad thing, it really does exist.
It was in such a place (the Triangle in North Carolina) that I first started seriously inquiring into Catholicism. I then moved to New Jersey, so I know the cultural contrast you are talking about. I taught history at a state university, and many of my students were cradle Catholics, but few of them seemed to be practicing (in fact, the most outspoken atheist in any of my classes was a former altar boy). Northern Indiana (where I currently live) is in between. Lots of cradle Catholics and many of them very devout.
The churches in the Triangle were actually quite liberal, but I understand that that’s not typical of the South.
Of course, as an Episcopalian I don’t necessarily think that being liberal means that they don’t know what the Church teaches. But my experience was that a lot of liberal Catholics were in denial and tended to fudge things in RCIA–one of the reasons I didn’t convert. My Episcopal parish was in many ways more orthodox from a Catholic perspective, and at the same time I didn’t have to “sign on the dotted line” with regard to things that bothered me. (There was more to it than that, of course.)
Edwin
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Yeoman
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I’m late to this thread, but on the original topic, I think it reflects the history of the region.
While, as already noted in the thread, there were pockets of Catholicism in the South, for the most part, prior to the Civil War, the South was remarkably homogeneous in it’s (white) makeup. Most Southerners were either of English descent or of Scots-Irish descent, and their views reflected the strong anti Catholic culture of those groups in the UK both at that time, and perhaps more importantly, from the centuries prior. The dominant Church was the Episcopal Church, which was the Church both of the majority of Southerners and of the majority of well to do, and therefore influential Southerners.
When the Civil War broke out, a feature of it was the itinerant Southern preacher. These individuals preached a much more primitive version of Christianity, in which they insisted that God would punish the South for its wickedness. When the South lost the war, and suffered terribly in the process, it seemed to many common people that these preachers were right, and Southerns began to go over to the various Protestant churches we associate with them today. These particular Protestant churches were often extremely hostile to the Catholic Church, having a fairly primitive view of many things, and having inherited a history of extreme anti Catholicism from the more radical Protestant advocates of the Reformation.
It’s taken a long time to come back from that, although I’m sure that things have changed much in the last century.
While, as already noted in the thread, there were pockets of Catholicism in the South, for the most part, prior to the Civil War, the South was remarkably homogeneous in it’s (white) makeup. Most Southerners were either of English descent or of Scots-Irish descent, and their views reflected the strong anti Catholic culture of those groups in the UK both at that time, and perhaps more importantly, from the centuries prior. The dominant Church was the Episcopal Church, which was the Church both of the majority of Southerners and of the majority of well to do, and therefore influential Southerners.
When the Civil War broke out, a feature of it was the itinerant Southern preacher. These individuals preached a much more primitive version of Christianity, in which they insisted that God would punish the South for its wickedness. When the South lost the war, and suffered terribly in the process, it seemed to many common people that these preachers were right, and Southerns began to go over to the various Protestant churches we associate with them today. These particular Protestant churches were often extremely hostile to the Catholic Church, having a fairly primitive view of many things, and having inherited a history of extreme anti Catholicism from the more radical Protestant advocates of the Reformation.
It’s taken a long time to come back from that, although I’m sure that things have changed much in the last century.
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Yeoman
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I was surprised to learn, at one time, the extent to which we Catholics are minority in my home state, Wyoming. We really are, but it doesn’t seem that way, perhaps because the only other “big” church is the Mormon church, with various other churches being relatively small in nature. Also, we’re a highly “unchurched” area, due to the nature of our economy, and I’d guess a majority of Wyoming’s residents attend no church at all, while they probably claim some Protestant affiliation.
Hispanics are a growing presence in the churches here too, but not to the extent they should be, which leads me to suspect that most Hispanics here don’t attend any church. That leads me to some questions about the depth of Catholicism amongst the Mexicans, but I don’t really know the answer to my questions. We do have Mexicans in our churches here now, and have for a long time, and we now have a Spanish Sunday Mass, but it is fairly lightly attended.
One thing I’d note is that certain Protestant groups are really aggressive about recruiting Hispanics, and are sometimes fairly successful with this. Our parish is trying to counter this, but it is something that does occur. In addition to that, the “economic” aspect of some Protestant groups, in which they equate economic success with religion, can apparently be attractive to some Hispanics just as it was with other cultures in the past, which is a factor. That is, they associate their “old” Faith with poverty, and are sometimes attracted to those who claim that their rising prosperity is a worldly reward from God, etc.
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HollyDolly
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My late father’s aunts used to live in Hot Springs years ago. Back in the 1920s when my dad lived there, there was St.Mary’s and St.John’s which my great grandparents helped found. St.John’s school back then had catholic as well as protestant kids going to school there.My dad went to school with heirs to the Reynolds Tobacco fortune.He pointed out the house they used to live in.My great aunts would sometimes go to Subiaco,Arkansas.The Benedictines have a monastery there.We have just had our plan to expand our Church due to influx of Catholics approved by our Bishop in Little Rock. Some are retiring Northerners moving to the warmer climate and lower taxes, some are converts from the other faiths. Arkansas has a very high percentage of church going Christians, so we anticipate an ever growing population of converts along with the relocated Catholics.
As you say with many cradle and convert Catholics moving south, the demographics has changed.
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HollyDolly
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Yeoman ,your right, the evangelicals are really into recuiting hispanics.There maybe many who aren’t grounded in their faith and so are easier to convert, others maybe be upset for one reason or another with the Church,and so leave her.
At my parish good shepherd, we really don’t have any spanish masses.Both masses on Sunday are in English. I think on the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe they do a spanish service, but i guess our pastors,Father Robbins and Father Greg haven’t gotten many requests for regular masses in Spanish.
As far as the wealth thing goes, maybe mention should be made to them about people like St.Katherine Drexel,St.Louis Strattman and other wealthy Catholic saints who used their money and time to help the poor. Heck,show them that Holy Mother Church has room for rich and poor alike.
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Sherry_G
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In our area, the main detraction for Mexicans is the language barrier. I would say most Mexicans are devout in their love of Christ and the Blessed Virgin and would certainly be in the pews at a Catholic Church if we could accomodate them with at least bi-lingual pastors or deacons and social justice help. There is an ever growing Mexican Church nearby, advertised as such. Not Catholic at all, but making every effort to uphold the teachings of the church. I notice that we have ordained some Spanish speaking priests recently, but there is a priest shortage in Mexico, since the Mexican government executed so many catholic priests back in the early 1900’s up until the late 30’s. Surpirisingly enough, very little has ever been publicized about the persecution of the Catholics in Mexico. Two of our presidents were asked to intervene back in the 20’s and 30’s but refused to do so.
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Yeoman
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One local Protestant group here actually started a Mexican restaurant to use as a recruiting tool. I don’t think it worked, but it was an interesting approach.
There maybe many who aren’t grounded in their faith and so are easier to convert, others maybe be upset for one reason or another with the Church,and so leave her.
At my parish good shepherd, we really don’t have any spanish masses.Both masses on Sunday are in English. I think on the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe they do a spanish service, but i guess our pastors,Father Robbins and Father Greg haven’t gotten many requests for regular masses in Spanish.
As far as the wealth thing goes, maybe mention should be made to them about people like St.Katherine Drexel,St.Louis Strattman and other wealthy Catholic saints who used their money and time to help the poor. Heck,show them that Holy Mother Church has room for rich and poor alike.
On wealth, I think that the message of some of the Protestant groups is somewhat contrary to what you note, which is not to say that this is true of all Protestant groups. But, what I mean is that the Catholic Church and many traditional Protestant groups have traditionally taught that wealth is a gift, and a responsibility, so that those who acquire wealth retain a duty to the poor. Some Protestant groups, however, have a sort of radical economic message which holds that you acquired wealth as it was a gift from God due to your holiness, and as long as you are good to the (their) church with your money, you can expect to get more and more money and enjoy it. One of my co-workers is a fallen away Catholic who is a member of a Church that holds such a view, and seems to believe that the Bible actually contains a road-map to worldly wealth. For those who are hoping to improve their economic fortunes, and who are experiencing an economic rise, that’s pretty tempting, as it sort of frees them from some economic ties to their own cultures.
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Yeoman
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That’s an excellent point. It’s rarely noted in the US that Mexico became extremely anti clerical during the Mexican Revolution and flirted with Communism. Trotsky didn’t go there just for the weather, after all. While killing clerics ceased by the late 30s, governmental hostility to Catholicism did not really end until the 80s or so. That the church endured there is really a testament to the enduring Grace of God.
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kingal86
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I heard Orthodox rabbis are supposed to turn potential converts away three times as a test, a bit like Buddhist monks I heard of.LOL, try converting to Judaism…I heard they really make it difficult for you.
Not to mention that adult circumcision you’ll have to endure, ouch.
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davy050995
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Idk where you live but I live in Montgomery alabama… The heart of the south and we all just kinda accept each others religions… Yea every once and a while someone will ask me why we(Catholics) worship Mary… I explain it and we move on. So I have never experienced any hate because of my religion.
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phoenixrrt62
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I really wouldn’t know why people in the south are anti RC or seem to be…mind, i’m not RC, so, I haven’t noticed a lot of heat, but I heard some rather odd beliefs that the evangelicals held in reference to the RC church.
My son used to go to a babysitter who was a big time fundie Christian, what actual denomination, I can’t recall. I want to say Baptist, they believed in total immersion, so perhaps it was…my kid would go to the church on occasion and go on and on about what he thought was torture with the sermons…but I digress …
One day the babysitter was saying something about “those Papists” who worshipped idols, and here her son chimes in and says “yeah, they worship the devil”. Needless to say I was floored. I proceeded to explain that they have many of the same beliefs, granted, there are differences, but the two religions are more alike than different, seemed to me, anyhow, and they most def. didn’t worship the devil!
(wonder where they got that from?)
My son used to go to a babysitter who was a big time fundie Christian, what actual denomination, I can’t recall. I want to say Baptist, they believed in total immersion, so perhaps it was…my kid would go to the church on occasion and go on and on about what he thought was torture with the sermons…but I digress …
One day the babysitter was saying something about “those Papists” who worshipped idols, and here her son chimes in and says “yeah, they worship the devil”. Needless to say I was floored. I proceeded to explain that they have many of the same beliefs, granted, there are differences, but the two religions are more alike than different, seemed to me, anyhow, and they most def. didn’t worship the devil!
(wonder where they got that from?)
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Garland
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Hi All, I am a son of appalachia in Ky, and my ancestors came from N. Carolina just after the war of northern agression. ha ha They brought with them there fundamentalist beliefs. As I grew up there were many differing beliefs among those around us and very few catholics. I don
t recall any hatred of catholics but a belief that they were not christian was prevelant. From a one room scool in my early years to the Univ. of Ky as a teen and young adult I was blessed with more contact with catholics to the point of thursting for more knowledge of the church that Jesus actually founded. I think seeing so many different sects all using the same bible, kjv, and all disagreeing with one another, made me more open to the truth of catholic faith. I went to RCIA in college at the local catholic church, with a very good catholic friend at the time, who did not try to convert me, but wanted to help me learn about it. It took me 9 yrs to to come home to the true faith and that has been 40 years of pure love and joy for me. I think I fall more in love with the faith and the Eucharist daily. I dont think I see as much distrust of catholics now as there was 40 yrs. ago. I think the more educated our children become of world history and the role of the RCC in it, the less likely there is to be hostility toward the truth. I do know the church is growing fast in my area and it is because of the love shown by us toward our neighbors. There are a few C of Christ sect that talk trash about us, but are ignored for the most part by other protestant groups here. Any way, love everybody as Christ loved us and the truth will prevail. Blessings Garland
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pipper
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We must remember that Appalachia and the south was settled by very anti-catholic Ulstermen, (scots-irish), originally. Think Ian Paisley.
Many were originally Presbyterians, but as the frontier moved west they were replaced by Baptists with no seminary requirements, and Methodists with their circuit riding ministers.
Many were originally Presbyterians, but as the frontier moved west they were replaced by Baptists with no seminary requirements, and Methodists with their circuit riding ministers.
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kyvic
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Here’s a mind boggler. I work in a Catholic Hospital in Ky ( I can’t name) All the Bibles in the hospital are KJV and If there are meetings to attend or education it is held in the Baptist church just to the left of the Catholic church. HELLO! I am the only Catholic in my Dept and people act like I am something to fear. I have heard people whisper as I walk by “That one’s Catholic” I believe God’s will sent me here,but sometimes I feel like I’m in the middle of some foriegn country. In Florida the priest visit the public hospitals daily. I’ve never seen a priest here in the 10 months I’ve worked here. I’m kind of afraid to ask about one.LOL!
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Disciple96
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Lord, have mercy! In Birmingham we have a Catholic hospital (in various locations) and, while all its branches have nice places where Mass is said…not that you can find the schedule online. Argh, that is frustrating. But then the last time I was in the gift shop in the main branch, there were no Catholic gifts. And I don’t think there are many Catholic employees there either. Oy. I hope they’re not part of Sr. Carol Keehan’s outfit. That would be too much…I’'ll have to find out.
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Ridgerunner
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I agree wholeheartedly with this. I live in Southern Mo, which is very, very “Bible Belt”. Southern Baptists mostly, though the world headquarters of the Assemblies of God is here as well.
A few years ago I was reading the local paper when I saw an announcement that the Rev. Ian Paisley was going to preach at a local Fundamental Methodist Church (no real difference between that and Fundamental Baptists). I was thunderstruck! So, I called up the pastor and asked him if it was the real Ian Paisley, the member of Parliament from Ulster, and he said “yes”. I just couldn’t help myself from going there to hear the man, so I did, and there he was; Ian Paisley.
Now, the truly amazing part was that as he preached, the congregation reacted to him and he to them just exactly as if they had been together for years. Well, there was a bit of “yeah”-ing and “orans” hand elevation here and there that I think surprised Paisley a bit when he made a point. But otherwise, it was just as if he had always been the pastor there. Now one needs to keep in mind that the local Scots-Irish (most of the population) have been in the U.S. for going on 300 years. So, that 300 years meant nothing at all. No change.
One needs to realize as well that much of the South (and certainly the Ozarks, the Smokies and much of Appalachia) were very isolated well into the middle of the 20th century. So, old cultural ways just didn’t change very much despite the separation in geography and time.
The really fierce anti-Catholicism with which I grew up as a boy has faded to near-non existence now. We also get a lot of converts in my parish; chiefly from Fundamentalist groups.
I agree with the writer, Flannery O’Connor who, decades ago, opined that in the future the greatest source of converts to Catholicism would be among southern fundamentalists. I am inclined to agree with her. But the ignorance does need to be broken down. Presently, it is breaking down.
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mark_a
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Interesting post.
For what it’s worth, in my area at least, I find that the vehemence of the anti-Catholicism is closely related to their personal socio-economic status.
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Ridgerunner
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Makes sense. Likely a matter of ignorance. If all you know is what some fire-breathing preacher tells you, that’s all you know.
I will say, though, that in my locale, at least, even that’s breaking down. Some of our converts are pretty low-end economically. In fact, and now that I reflect on it, we get a lot more of those than we get of middle class converts.
But there may also be differences between southern hill people and flatlanders. The former are pretty much what we have around here.
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